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12/18/2009 05:33:32 PM · #126 |
| I seem to remember that offering multiple challenges was a response to the masses complaining about voting on challenges with 500+ entries. Just goes to show that you can't please all of the people all of the time. |
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12/18/2009 05:34:09 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by kleski:
I think my post might have been misinterpreted as focused on one person. It was not my intention. I was merely trying to point out something very obvious about all of the complaints...If you don't contribute in a positive manner why do you expect someone else will?
For example...
One of the issues that I see every week is that people get scored low and they have no comments to let them know why. So they go to the scoring thread and talk about how they wish they could get a comment from those voters. Instead of complaining about it go out and comment on shots you scored low! I have been given plenty of low scores and how many people have given me a reason for that, not too many. But I make it a point that if I give low scores I will make a comment to let you know why I did.
My point is quit waiting for something to happen to make things better, step up and be a part of what you want to happen. Everyone's positive contributions (big or small) make a difference!
BTW, I have a button on my page that says DPL. It's been on here for at least three years. I finally read the information contained in it..."It allows for something normally very independent (DPChallenge) to become a team effort and creates camaraderie among fellow DPChallenge users. It is a fantastic way to break out of your comfort zone and meet new people on the site and in turn create friendships. It also stimulates the learning factor that the entire site is all about." Sounds like a good thing... |
You are right that people should go and comment on low votes they give....another idea that used to happen frequently is that people with low votes would post their photos and ask why the got low votes...the problem is they would get frustrated when people explained why...I was one of those people at certain points...but it was mostly at DNMC comments. And also people who scored in the 6's would ask why they got low scores...not realizing that a 6 was a good score on this site.
DPL was great, but there were a few teams of just the best photographers on the site....some teams had no chance. I like the idea of a random draft...each year...so that teams are mixed up every year, you don't have the best photographers dominating, everyone is learning (you have to help the newer (and i dare say less talented) create better shots), and everyone starts befriending everyone. That's how you create community...people have to work together and you meet more people that way. |
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12/18/2009 05:37:58 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by albc28:
Okay..I maybe going off on a tangent today instead of editing photos like I should be doing.
But again, i think the low participation in challenges has to do with the number of side challenges. People don't see the challenge they want that week so they go to a side challenge. I think the side challenges should be eliminated and people will be forced or obligated to step out of their comfort zone and work for the challenges that are presented. That's what I liked about the site the most...it gave me the practice of shooting for clients...given an idea and making it happen. Not choosing what idea I want to shoot. Lets get back to the CHALLENGE aspect of the site...stop voting on all the side challenges and work on the challenges presented.
If all those side challenges were challenge suggestions, then maybe they would come up and the whole site would be working towards them with the scores. |
Actually, the only thing it would do is force me to find another site where I could post what I wanted. Eliminating side challenges would do nothing but drive people away. They have nothing to do with the challenges. I participate in them because when you do you actually get feedback. And why pay for a portfolio, if no one ever looks at what you post there? The only time my pictures get looked at are in side challenges. I suck at challenges, but I do still enter them. Maybe not as much as I was, but why bother when I can only expect a 4.9 or lower for the most part? |
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12/18/2009 05:41:18 PM · #129 |
If you want comments, create the kind of images that elicit comments.
If you want help creating those kinds of images, ask for it.
If you want to know what people think about your image, ask them, don't just submit an image to a challenge and expect comments and suggestions on how to make your image get 10's. |
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12/18/2009 05:44:12 PM · #130 |
Originally posted by albc28:
This challenge is already on the front page...it's called FreeStudy. Yet during voting everyone is going to complain that there aren't enough votes or comments...and that's because they are all commenting on this thread instead. |
That's nonsense. You can't back that up with any data. I just checked the profiles of most of the people on the front page of this thread, and they are all regular challenge-enterers. Heck, I participate in that thread from time to time, and I'm sure a regular challenge-enterer. Jeb's in there a lot, and he enters challenges right and left. Ditto Waddy, ditto jomari, etc etc etc.
A thread like that is anyway NOT a substitute for a Free Study; that's reserved for our single best image each month, c'mon... get real! No, that thread is a substitute for a gazillion individual threads posting a gazillion individual images in the hopes that people will view them and discuss them. And I'm 100% FOR that; I'd much rather see this stuff in a single, long thread than in many individual threads jockeying for pride of place on the front page.
Have you forgotten that we actually have a forum for "individual photograph discussion"? It's been an integral part of DPC from the beginning...
R. |
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12/18/2009 05:48:18 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by albc28:
Okay..I maybe going off on a tangent today instead of editing photos like I should be doing.
But again, i think the low participation in challenges has to do with the number of side challenges. People don't see the challenge they want that week so they go to a side challenge. I think the side challenges should be eliminated and people will be forced or obligated to step out of their comfort zone and work for the challenges that are presented. That's what I liked about the site the most...it gave me the practice of shooting for clients...given an idea and making it happen. Not choosing what idea I want to shoot. Lets get back to the CHALLENGE aspect of the site...stop voting on all the side challenges and work on the challenges presented.
If all those side challenges were challenge suggestions, then maybe they would come up and the whole site would be working towards them with the scores. |
Actually, the only thing it would do is force me to find another site where I could post what I wanted. Eliminating side challenges would do nothing but drive people away. They have nothing to do with the challenges. I participate in them because when you do you actually get feedback. And why pay for a portfolio, if no one ever looks at what you post there? The only time my pictures get looked at are in side challenges. I suck at challenges, but I do still enter them. Maybe not as much as I was, but why bother when I can only expect a 4.9 or lower for the most part? |
But what if you were getting more feedback in the challenges? if the people who were in the side challenges commenting decided to comment in the challenges instead then it would eliminat the reason you go to side challenges.
I agree that there needs to be more visibility of portfolios though. I don't post images in my portfolio because I don't think anyone is looking at them.
***Site suggestion (not related to complaining lol) - I think we should put featured portfolios on the front page or even better how about showcased images section. Something where photos that aren't in any challenges are choosen as a showcased image. They don't have to be voted on, they are simply chosen based of a designated few SC's discretion. Something similar to that of One Model Place or Solomodels. Something that would drive people to our portfolios. More emphasis for people to find and hire or use the photographers of the site. |
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12/18/2009 06:17:59 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by albc28:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by albc28:
Okay..I maybe going off on a tangent today instead of editing photos like I should be doing.
But again, i think the low participation in challenges has to do with the number of side challenges. People don't see the challenge they want that week so they go to a side challenge. I think the side challenges should be eliminated and people will be forced or obligated to step out of their comfort zone and work for the challenges that are presented. That's what I liked about the site the most...it gave me the practice of shooting for clients...given an idea and making it happen. Not choosing what idea I want to shoot. Lets get back to the CHALLENGE aspect of the site...stop voting on all the side challenges and work on the challenges presented.
If all those side challenges were challenge suggestions, then maybe they would come up and the whole site would be working towards them with the scores. |
Actually, the only thing it would do is force me to find another site where I could post what I wanted. Eliminating side challenges would do nothing but drive people away. They have nothing to do with the challenges. I participate in them because when you do you actually get feedback. And why pay for a portfolio, if no one ever looks at what you post there? The only time my pictures get looked at are in side challenges. I suck at challenges, but I do still enter them. Maybe not as much as I was, but why bother when I can only expect a 4.9 or lower for the most part? |
But what if you were getting more feedback in the challenges? if the people who were in the side challenges commenting decided to comment in the challenges instead then it would eliminat the reason you go to side challenges.
I agree that there needs to be more visibility of portfolios though. I don't post images in my portfolio because I don't think anyone is looking at them.
***Site suggestion (not related to complaining lol) - I think we should put featured portfolios on the front page or even better how about showcased images section. Something where photos that aren't in any challenges are choosen as a showcased image. They don't have to be voted on, they are simply chosen based of a designated few SC's discretion. Something similar to that of One Model Place or Solomodels. Something that would drive people to our portfolios. More emphasis for people to find and hire or use the photographers of the site. |
I've been here since 2003. Not having side challenges doesn't get you more comments. Your thinking is totally flawed. People will comment on what they are interested in. Side challenges are not a competition. They are places to put a particular type (whatever it is) of image up and get feedback. I don't understand why you want that eliminated. What would be the point of having a portfolio if you couldn't post the images in a thread like a side challenge? |
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12/18/2009 06:26:04 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If you want comments, create the kind of images that elicit comments.
If you want help creating those kinds of images, ask for it.
If you want to know what people think about your image, ask them, don't just submit an image to a challenge and expect comments and suggestions on how to make your image get 10's. |
I'm not sure if this was directed to me or not, but I'll answer in case it was. I don't just expect comments & suggestion on how to get a 10. I could care less about scores for the most part. Of course I'm happy when I do well, but it's not that important. What's important is that if I'm going to be a member of a site, I have someplace that I can actually put stuff that I like to do and get feedback on it. That's my point. |
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12/18/2009 06:31:40 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If you want comments, create the kind of images that elicit comments.
If you want help creating those kinds of images, ask for it.
If you want to know what people think about your image, ask them, don't just submit an image to a challenge and expect comments and suggestions on how to make your image get 10's. |
I'm not sure if this was directed to me or not, but I'll answer in case it was. I don't just expect comments & suggestion on how to get a 10. I could care less about scores for the most part. Of course I'm happy when I do well, but it's not that important. What's important is that if I'm going to be a member of a site, I have someplace that I can actually put stuff that I like to do and get feedback on it. That's my point. |
Kelli...I think you did touch up on a great point. There is hardly any emphasis on the site whatsoever on portfolios. Unless you are searching for certain photographers, there's really no reason to go through portfolios. |
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12/18/2009 06:37:53 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by albc28:
I think the side challenges should be eliminated and people will be forced or obligated to step out of their comfort zone and work for the challenges that are presented.
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You think taking 30 photos 1/day consecutively of a FORK is a comfort zone? Man you have some strange comfort zones. It was a challenge and personally, I think certain side challenges should remain, while others... should not be considered 'side challenges' but just a topic to post images in.
Side challenges can be way more beneficial then you think. Specially when the participants really participate and comment on images and communicate with each other and learn.
I was actually thinking of doing the 30 Forking Days part 2 side challenge. Spoon! Now wouldn't that be fun? I think so. What about another self portrait side challenge, those are always fun and always a huge learning experience for many people considering capturing a self portrait is one of the most difficult things for a lot of people.
To force people to be or feel obligated to only do what challenge is posted.... I would be gone for good as I am sure others would be as well.
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12/18/2009 06:47:48 PM · #136 |
On the subject of Side Challenges, I treat the ones I participate in as study groups.
You try something new, the others who are trying the same technique tell you if it is successful,
and by looking at their work, you jointly get inspiration.
While it is not "Mentoring" with a volunteer instructor, lesson plan and assignments,
it seems to be what has taken the place of Mentoring.
It would be nice to have both, but for that, we need willing, knowledgeable members to take on the
task of organizing and planning the Mentoring sessions.
ETA - yes, I was in  littlegett's fork side challenge, and it was about as challenging a task as I
have set for myself. And I learned a lot!
Message edited by author 2009-12-18 18:50:02.
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12/18/2009 08:06:52 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If you want comments, create the kind of images that elicit comments.
If you want help creating those kinds of images, ask for it.
If you want to know what people think about your image, ask them, don't just submit an image to a challenge and expect comments and suggestions on how to make your image get 10's. |
I'm not sure if this was directed to me or not, but I'll answer in case it was. I don't just expect comments & suggestion on how to get a 10. I could care less about scores for the most part. Of course I'm happy when I do well, but it's not that important. What's important is that if I'm going to be a member of a site, I have someplace that I can actually put stuff that I like to do and get feedback on it. That's my point. |
It wasn't directed at you specifically, no. However since you replied, do you think that challenges are the best place to put your images for feedback? Why do you enter challenges? |
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12/18/2009 08:09:46 PM · #138 |
Originally posted by albc28:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If you want comments, create the kind of images that elicit comments.
If you want help creating those kinds of images, ask for it.
If you want to know what people think about your image, ask them, don't just submit an image to a challenge and expect comments and suggestions on how to make your image get 10's. |
I'm not sure if this was directed to me or not, but I'll answer in case it was. I don't just expect comments & suggestion on how to get a 10. I could care less about scores for the most part. Of course I'm happy when I do well, but it's not that important. What's important is that if I'm going to be a member of a site, I have someplace that I can actually put stuff that I like to do and get feedback on it. That's my point. |
Kelli...I think you did touch up on a great point. There is hardly any emphasis on the site whatsoever on portfolios. Unless you are searching for certain photographers, there's really no reason to go through portfolios. |
How about simply posting in the forums that you're looking for feedback on certain images? There's even a forum here on DPC for doing just that. |
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12/18/2009 08:34:33 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If you want comments, create the kind of images that elicit comments.
If you want help creating those kinds of images, ask for it.
If you want to know what people think about your image, ask them, don't just submit an image to a challenge and expect comments and suggestions on how to make your image get 10's. |
I'm not sure if this was directed to me or not, but I'll answer in case it was. I don't just expect comments & suggestion on how to get a 10. I could care less about scores for the most part. Of course I'm happy when I do well, but it's not that important. What's important is that if I'm going to be a member of a site, I have someplace that I can actually put stuff that I like to do and get feedback on it. That's my point. |
It wasn't directed at you specifically, no. However since you replied, do you think that challenges are the best place to put your images for feedback? Why do you enter challenges? |
I enter challenges for fun. I definitely don't think challenges are the best place for feedback. Photography is not my profession and I don't intend to open a studio in the future or shoot weddings or whatever. Photography is a fun form of self expression. An outlet. I may not be the best at it, but it works for me. As someone said somewhere in this mishmash of complaints, we are not all at the same level. And to answer your next post, I don't ask for feedback on specific pictures because of the way some people respond. It's not that I'm looking for praise, it's that I don't really know how to respond to the snarkiness of some replies. Some people here really do look down their noses at others. Besides, in a side challenge I don't have to beg for comments. They just happen because the people that are involved in it are all there for the same reasons. |
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12/18/2009 08:44:41 PM · #140 |
Originally posted by albc28:
Simms clearly stated that SC doesn't participate...SC simply showed evidence otherwise. There are posts that SC doesn't put in new challenges...they showed otherwise. Yet no matter what they say you don't want to hear it. It's almost like people are just searching for someone to point the finger at.
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I'll pull you on that one.. I said SOME don't seem to have any interest in submitting to challenges or even their portfolios, they seem to ignore the whole photography thing, but these are the people who decide on rule changes - why should they be allowed to make changes to rules when they wont ever have to try and fit one of their photos into the ruleset.. thats my annoyance. It wasn't a blanket statement about SC - to even suggest Scalvert, Alan, General and a couple of others dont participant would be a very foolhardy statement to make, you only need to look at their stats, but if we look at Frisca (last challenge entry June 2007), Manic (only ever voted on 2000 images) etc. when did they last enter a challenge where they had to adhere to the ruleset they helped put together. Thats my bugbear. Stick someone like DrAchoo or Bear_Music in there - I am not a massive fan of Bear but I think he would make an outstanding SC member.
People may look at my stats and say "well you have only entered 67 challenge, you have only ever cast 12000 votes", maybe so - but I am not SC, I am not telling everyone else what rules they need to stick to and I am not casting judgement on potential DQs.
A lot of you know me, and you know I dont care if you tear a strip off me in these here forums, I come bouncing back - a lot of you know me in real-life, and you know I am not a malicious or nasty person just out to claim scalps. I am a very passionate and fiery person who just likes to speak his mind once in a while.
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12/18/2009 08:55:03 PM · #141 |
I guess my confusion lies in what is a side challenge....
To me I see a side challenge as someone coming up with a challenge idea, a group of people entering...and then they all comment on the photo all because they don't want to enter the challenges the site comes up with.
DPC challenges are the site coming up with challenges...people enter, vote and comment on the photos....
Here is how I'm looking at it....people are complaining that there are no new challenges being presented...maybe because people don't suggest them as challenges but decide to do them as side challenges instead. People complain because of the low number of challenge entries...maybe because people are entering side challenges instead. people are complaining that there aren't enough comments or votes...maybe because people are entering side challenges instead. If all that effort was put into the challenges the site presented then both sides would be satisfied.
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12/18/2009 08:59:44 PM · #142 |
Originally posted by albc28:
I guess my confusion lies in what is a side challenge....
To me I see a side challenge as someone coming up with a challenge idea, a group of people entering...and then they all comment on the photo all because they don't want to enter the challenges the site comes up with.
DPC challenges are the site coming up with challenges...people enter, vote and comment on the photos....
Here is how I'm looking at it....people are complaining that there are no new challenges being presented...maybe because people don't suggest them as challenges but decide to do them as side challenges instead. People complain because of the low number of challenge entries...maybe because people are entering side challenges instead. people are complaining that there aren't enough comments or votes...maybe because people are entering side challenges instead. If all that effort was put into the challenges the site presented then both sides would be satisfied. |
That's not how it works. Maybe you should try one. I think you'd become a fan. Someone comes up with an idea, yes, but editing rules are usually whatever you want. There is no voting. There is no winner and there is no loser. It's just fun. Looking at what people come up with, commenting and learning new stuff. People are always happy to explain what they did if asked. And there is no right and wrong. |
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12/18/2009 09:37:29 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by albc28:
I guess my confusion lies in what is a side challenge....
To me I see a side challenge as someone coming up with a challenge idea, a group of people entering...and then they all comment on the photo all because they don't want to enter the challenges the site comes up with.
DPC challenges are the site coming up with challenges...people enter, vote and comment on the photos....
Here is how I'm looking at it....people are complaining that there are no new challenges being presented...maybe because people don't suggest them as challenges but decide to do them as side challenges instead. People complain because of the low number of challenge entries...maybe because people are entering side challenges instead. people are complaining that there aren't enough comments or votes...maybe because people are entering side challenges instead. If all that effort was put into the challenges the site presented then both sides would be satisfied. |
Geez, not how I see side challenges at all! Sometimes it's a theme some of us love and others are sick of (like flowers or pets) or an editing style that may not fit any of the challenges (like overlays) or a chance to shoot whatever floats your boat each day without worrying about whether you nailed your technicals. The fun is that they're not competitive. You can get some negative comments and re-edit and ask if it's better. You can see from the notes why someone shot or processed something a certain way, which for me spills over into thinking longer about challenge entries that don't immediately appeal to me. You can just ... play. And get to know your fellow participants a little better, which helps that nebulous sense of community. I don't do them instead of, but in addition to, regular challenges, and from the number of people I recognize in side challenges and in various scoring threads I think it's safe to say I'm not alone in that. I would hate to see side challenges go away! |
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12/18/2009 09:54:29 PM · #144 |
I think we should have weekly wheel-barrel races and egg tosses and a bi-monthly pie eating contest.
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12/18/2009 10:01:49 PM · #145 |
I love side challenges, though I think I only participated in one.
Always nice to see image filled threads on the front page:
The Lensbaby side challenge got me inspired and I got a Lensbaby for myself.
Ongoing Black & White, Street, Self Portrait threads are great--new work in those genres all the time, without having to wait for a formal challenge. And the side challenges and threads are usually populated by the people most passionate about those genres.
I think they are one of the BEST things at DPC. I'd rather see my front page filled with Side Challenge, running daily [image type] threads, and technique discussions than most of the rant, bitch, moan, whine, complain, blame-SC threads that seem to fill it now. |
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12/18/2009 10:20:25 PM · #146 |
@  Alanfreed - I've suggested several times that we be given stylesheet options on the preference page. In other words, if I want to view the site in black I simply change my pref setting. Nobody would freak out because my settings wouldn't affect how others view the site. That's the key, customization.
Message edited by author 2009-12-18 22:24:21.
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12/18/2009 10:28:04 PM · #147 |
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12/18/2009 10:56:36 PM · #148 |
Ah yes one more place for my ideas and suggestions to wither and die. Been waiting since 2006 for my first challenge suggestion to get picked so what hope is there for a site modification?
Message edited by author 2009-12-18 22:58:12.
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12/19/2009 01:13:10 AM · #149 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If you want comments, create the kind of images that elicit comments.
If you want help creating those kinds of images, ask for it.
If you want to know what people think about your image, ask them, don't just submit an image to a challenge and expect comments and suggestions on how to make your image get 10's. |
I'm not sure if this was directed to me or not, but I'll answer in case it was. I don't just expect comments & suggestion on how to get a 10. I could care less about scores for the most part. Of course I'm happy when I do well, but it's not that important. What's important is that if I'm going to be a member of a site, I have someplace that I can actually put stuff that I like to do and get feedback on it. That's my point. |
It wasn't directed at you specifically, no. However since you replied, do you think that challenges are the best place to put your images for feedback? Why do you enter challenges? |
I enter challenges for fun. I definitely don't think challenges are the best place for feedback. Photography is not my profession and I don't intend to open a studio in the future or shoot weddings or whatever. Photography is a fun form of self expression. An outlet. I may not be the best at it, but it works for me. As someone said somewhere in this mishmash of complaints, we are not all at the same level. And to answer your next post, I don't ask for feedback on specific pictures because of the way some people respond. It's not that I'm looking for praise, it's that I don't really know how to respond to the snarkiness of some replies. Some people here really do look down their noses at others. Besides, in a side challenge I don't have to beg for comments. They just happen because the people that are involved in it are all there for the same reasons. |
I haven't seen "snarkiness" in the Individual Photo Discussion thread... Sometimes people do leave such comments in challenges, but if a user is so thin-skinned, they really shouldn't post them someplace where people can comment. Let me ask you another question; Do you want to improve your photography, learn more or are you happy with your work as is and it's simply your "outlet". |
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12/19/2009 01:35:42 AM · #150 |
Originally posted by albc28:
I guess my confusion lies in what is a side challenge....
To me I see a side challenge as someone coming up with a challenge idea, a group of people entering...and then they all comment on the photo all because they don't want to enter the challenges the site comes up with.
DPC challenges are the site coming up with challenges...people enter, vote and comment on the photos....
Here is how I'm looking at it....people are complaining that there are no new challenges being presented...maybe because people don't suggest them as challenges but decide to do them as side challenges instead. People complain because of the low number of challenge entries...maybe because people are entering side challenges instead. people are complaining that there aren't enough comments or votes...maybe because people are entering side challenges instead. If all that effort was put into the challenges the site presented then both sides would be satisfied. |
Perhaps "side challenge" is the wrong term to use - they are more like "side workshops" if you will. As a for instance, Lensbaby shots are not necessarily to the taste of the masses, but there are a handful of folks who do enjoy them. So on occasion there are Lensbaby side "workshops" where those who like them can share their work, get feedback, hints, etc. Same for overlays. Those aren't even allowed under DPC rules, but some people really like editing with them - hence, a workshop! So think of them as workshops, not challenges. No one votes, no "entering", no one gets any ribbons; people just learn from each other, enjoy a bit of comraderie, and enjoy sharing a few photographs. |
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