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07/28/2006 06:04:11 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
So you're excluding a good chunk of the p&s folks..? |
So you have to sit out ONE challenge....
If I have to sum up the number of challenges that dont fit my mind/timeframe/location/whatever..... Hey I don't have a macro lens, I want a ban on macro challenges.
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07/28/2006 06:05:16 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by fir3bird:
Edit: OH OH OH! I forgot one. How could I since all 3 of my challenge entries have been in this mode.
MANUAL FOCUS |
Count the blind folks out then. :-P
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07/28/2006 06:43:29 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
So you're excluding a good chunk of the p&s folks..? |
So you have to sit out ONE challenge....
If I have to sum up the number of challenges that dont fit my mind/timeframe/location/whatever..... Hey I don't have a macro lens, I want a ban on macro challenges. |
That only holds water if this were the only challenge to be so exclusive. It's not. "30 Seconds or More" comes to mind immediately. The f/8 suggestion that we've blessedly not seen. Bokeh and other DoF related challenges are made extremely difficult by basic editing rules and a lack of ability to control DoF on a P&S. Sorry, but I haven't just been sitting out of ONE challenge, and I'm not going to encourage anything that excludes me or anyone else when I pay for the privilege of choosing which challenges in which to participate. You can fake macro. You can fake a lot of things. You can't fake EXIF data, and with a P&S you can't always control it, either.
By the way, I do have manual control on my camera. But I, at least, am considerate of those who do not since I know what it's like to be a benchwarmer who doesn't get to play.
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07/28/2006 06:51:30 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
So you're excluding a good chunk of the p&s folks..? |
So you have to sit out ONE challenge....
If I have to sum up the number of challenges that dont fit my mind/timeframe/location/whatever..... Hey I don't have a macro lens, I want a ban on macro challenges. |
That only holds water if this were the only challenge to be so exclusive. It's not. "30 Seconds or More" comes to mind immediately. The f/8 suggestion that we've blessedly not seen. Bokeh and other DoF related challenges are made extremely difficult by basic editing rules and a lack of ability to control DoF on a P&S. Sorry, but I haven't just been sitting out of ONE challenge, and I'm not going to encourage anything that excludes me or anyone else when I pay for the privilege of choosing which challenges in which to participate. You can fake macro. You can fake a lot of things. You can't fake EXIF data, and with a P&S you can't always control it, either.
By the way, I do have manual control on my camera. But I, at least, am considerate of those who do not since I know what it's like to be a benchwarmer who doesn't get to play. |
Make it an open challenge. One can be full manual, the other one full auto or program mode.
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07/28/2006 07:31:01 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Depends on how you define "correct exposure", and whether or not you are trying to achieve it. In most cases the camera will be correct, and what you achieve by straying from its recommendations are choices of taste and/or style. |
I'm not talking about artistic style I'm talking about getting the correct exposure to duplicate what was seen through the viewfinder and I'm saying the camera's "guess" at that can often be wrong.
Originally posted by coolhar:
So you think the people who don't shoot in M mode all the time "simply just go by ... that funky exposure bar"? |
No I never said that. P Mode users can certainly adjust that bar just the same as M Mode users but they'll get more drastic results.
Originally posted by coolhar:
I go back to my original thinking and ask you what is the advantage of using M over Av or Tv (leaving out the snobbery) if you are going to use the camera's electronics to guide your decisions on aperture and/or shutter speed? |
M mode gives you more fine tuning ability to get the exposure right. Simple as that. Sometimes you need a bit more ambient light and the way to do that is to adjust the shutter speed but if you use Tv mode for that you may get a DOF you don't care for. Same thing with Av mode. If you use that to set the right DOF it may throw off your ambient lighting. Sure M Mode opens up more for artistic creativity and I have certainly use that with some of my images but it also helps in getting difficult scenes to expose well, IMO.
Message edited by author 2006-07-28 19:34:56. |
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07/28/2006 08:33:10 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by yanko:
I'm not talking about artistic style I'm talking about getting the correct exposure to duplicate what was seen through the viewfinder and I'm saying the camera's "guess" at that can often be wrong. |
The camera doesn't guess. It measures and calculates. I think it is right way more of the time than a photog who guesses. An experienced eye like Bear's may approach matching the camera a high perdentage of the time, but would only on rare occasion be more accurate. One could even say that the camera's selections define correct exposure, and that any deviance is for technical reasons (like freezing movement) or for artistic purposes.
Originally posted by yanko:
M mode gives you more fine tuning ability to get the exposure right. Simple as that. Sometimes you need a bit more ambient light and the way to do that is to adjust the shutter speed but if you use Tv mode for that you may get a DOF you don't care for. Same thing with Av mode. If you use that to set the right DOF it may throw off your ambient lighting. Sure M Mode opens up more for artistic creativity and I have certainly use that with some of my images but it also helps in getting difficult scenes to expose well, IMO. |
The "fine tuning ability" you speak of is not defined by which setting you select on the Mode dial but rather by the number of possible settings available for each variable your camera has. Doing Manual the way you are talking about doing it is no more than using Av or Tv, only you have not decided which of those two variables has the higher priority and will be set first.
Using the Manual mode while still relying on the camera's metering system to define exposure values (perhaps within a very small range) is not reflective of any particular skill, or talent, as a photographer. Being able to determine the settings to use without benefit of camera or light meter, as Bear says he learned to do, is a remarkable accomplishment. But machines can do many things more consistently than humans, and metering light to set exposure is one of those tasks. To be convinced otherwise goes beyond snobbery to arrogance.
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07/28/2006 09:01:30 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
So you're excluding a good chunk of the p&s folks..? |
So you have to sit out ONE challenge....
If I have to sum up the number of challenges that dont fit my mind/timeframe/location/whatever..... Hey I don't have a macro lens, I want a ban on macro challenges. |
That only holds water if this were the only challenge to be so exclusive. It's not. "30 Seconds or More" comes to mind immediately. The f/8 suggestion that we've blessedly not seen. Bokeh and other DoF related challenges are made extremely difficult by basic editing rules and a lack of ability to control DoF on a P&S. Sorry, but I haven't just been sitting out of ONE challenge, and I'm not going to encourage anything that excludes me or anyone else when I pay for the privilege of choosing which challenges in which to participate. You can fake macro. You can fake a lot of things. You can't fake EXIF data, and with a P&S you can't always control it, either.
By the way, I do have manual control on my camera. But I, at least, am considerate of those who do not since I know what it's like to be a benchwarmer who doesn't get to play. |
Make it an open challenge. One can be full manual, the other one full auto or program mode. |
Why do people who make these exclusionary suggestions always think this is the answer? This doesn't give us a choice, it only serves to segregate those who can afford (or are merely lucky enough to own) an SLR from those who can't.
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07/28/2006 09:15:42 PM · #83 |
Yanko, Harvey;
There seems to be some miscommunication here, or something. There is absolutely no difference to be gained, in results, from shooting in Av or Tv mode with EV compensation dialed in vs shooting in full manual mode and using the exposure bar to place your exposure where you want it. It's just a question of which one works more naturally for you.
If I am shooting in Av mode, and dial in f/11.0, the camera will (based on the metering mode I am using) calculate a "correct" exposure and assign a shutter speed to supply that exposure: let's assume it's 1/125 second. If I decide that the best exposure would be a full stop further to the right (the area being metered is fairly bright compared to zone 5 average gray) then I dial in plus 1 on the EV compensation and the shutter speed changes to 1/60 second.
Doing the same thing in full manual, I dial in f/11.0 with one wheel, look at the exposure bar in the viewfinder and dial the shutter speed until the pointer is one line to the right of center, and I'll have a 1/60 second exposure. It's the exact same result, just arrived at with a different workflow.
I haven't seen anything in this thread to suggest that anyone thinks the challenge should be to "work without the camera's light meter"; all that's being proposed is a challenge that will "force" people to become4 more familiar with the interrelationships between shutter speed and aperture by "disconnecting" them from each other. And that, I suppose, is a Good Thing in its own right, although I'm not personally convinced there's enough meat on it to make it worth a challenge of its own...
R.
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07/28/2006 09:17:12 PM · #84 |
Whatever coolhar, I'm done.
Message edited by author 2006-07-28 21:17:53. |
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07/28/2006 09:26:34 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Why do people who make these exclusionary suggestions always think this is the answer? This doesn't give us a choice, it only serves to segregate those who can afford (or are merely lucky enough to own) an SLR from those who can't. |
By the same token, why do we have to outlaw any challenge that doesn't suit those who can't/don't want to update their equipment at the expense of those who do/can? |
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07/28/2006 09:37:49 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Why do people who make these exclusionary suggestions always think this is the answer? This doesn't give us a choice, it only serves to segregate those who can afford (or are merely lucky enough to own) an SLR from those who can't. |
By the same token, why do we have to outlaw any challenge that doesn't suit those who can't/don't want to update their equipment at the expense of those who do/can? |
That statement implies that the Haves are better and deserve more than the Have Nots. Or rather, that the Have Nots deserve to be excluded from challenges just because the Haves want to engage in a bit of dick measuring. Either way it's an elitist attitude. Exclusion of this sort is merely self-congratulatory, and completely valueless as far as the site's mission of promoting learning and improvement. We can't improve using equipment we don't have for challenges in which we therefore cannot participate. We're all photographers here, let's not start dividing ourselves into Haves and Have Nots. If DPC were to start going down that road, I think I would quit on principle. If I have to have supercoolfunawesome equipment to be one of the cool kids, then it's not worth it to stay.
"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others." I'm going from memory on the quote, but that was the gist. Animal Farm, George Orwell.
Edited for clarity of thought.
Message edited by author 2006-07-28 21:39:24.
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07/28/2006 09:38:35 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Why do people who make these exclusionary suggestions always think this is the answer? This doesn't give us a choice, it only serves to segregate those who can afford (or are merely lucky enough to own) an SLR from those who can't. |
By the same token, why do we have to outlaw any challenge that doesn't suit those who can't/don't want to update their equipment at the expense of those who do/can? |
I think the issue is why have either? I much prefer challenges that judge the photographer's skill/artistry over the quality of the equipment used. Although maybe if I had a 85mm f/1.2L for the bokeh challenge I might think differently. :P
Message edited by author 2006-07-28 21:40:10. |
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07/28/2006 09:39:24 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Why do people who make these exclusionary suggestions always think this is the answer? This doesn't give us a choice, it only serves to segregate those who can afford (or are merely lucky enough to own) an SLR from those who can't. |
By the same token, why do we have to outlaw any challenge that doesn't suit those who can't/don't want to update their equipment at the expense of those who do/can? |
As a learning site we need to explore all facets of photography and sometimes that means some people get excluded. We can't just stop studying more advanced technique because some might get excluded.
By not having certain types of challenges even those that are excluded would be depriving themselves of a real opportunity to learn something new. There's a lot to be learned by seeing what others are doing.
That being said, I'm not really sure what this type of challenge would really teach or prove.
~Mark
Message edited by author 2006-07-28 21:40:48. |
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07/28/2006 09:49:27 PM · #89 |
| What pekesty said. :) We all go on about learning but the learning apparently has to be limited to a certain set of criteria. God forbid those elitest dslr-having wenches be allowed to progress with their own equipment. Best to keep that sort of learning limited. I don't really see an issue with only being able to enter one of the two challenges. I guess I just don't understand this mindset. It's not like I expect everyone else to enter shitty photos just because I can't take good ones. |
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07/28/2006 09:56:23 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Why do people who make these exclusionary suggestions always think this is the answer? This doesn't give us a choice, it only serves to segregate those who can afford (or are merely lucky enough to own) an SLR from those who can't. |
By the same token, why do we have to outlaw any challenge that doesn't suit those who can't/don't want to update their equipment at the expense of those who do/can? |
good point, mk.
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07/28/2006 11:29:29 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by mk:
What pekesty said. :) We all go on about learning but the learning apparently has to be limited to a certain set of criteria. God forbid those elitest dslr-having wenches be allowed to progress with their own equipment. Best to keep that sort of learning limited. I don't really see an issue with only being able to enter one of the two challenges. I guess I just don't understand this mindset. It's not like I expect everyone else to enter shitty photos just because I can't take good ones. |
Talent isn't limited to or generated by one's equipment, so the simile doesn't work. You probably don't understand it because you've probably never lived on my side of the DPC tracks. I don't know that to be true, but I have a suspicion that may be the case. Most Haves have the means to enter both and thus maintain the ability to choose. The Have Nots get no such luxuries. The Haves win both because quantity increases the odds in favor of quality. The Have Nots are told to eat their damn lima beans or starve, no matter how much they hate them, cuz there ain't nothin' else for dinner. And yet we paid the same membership fee. So much for equal opportunity.
By all means, progress with your equipment. The forums are a wonderful place for discussion of techniques and equipment I will never be able to afford. Heck, sponsor little League of Death style side competitions if you really feel the need to assemble a clique of possessors of shiny toys. Keep the competitive segregationism out of the official challenges. Leave the ribbons open to all.
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07/28/2006 11:41:25 PM · #92 |
As long as you keep your Have Not filth on your side of the tracks. I like to keep my side clean.
(Honestly, if you have such an issue with segregation, you ought to take some time to consider the way you present your issues.)
Message edited by author 2006-07-28 23:43:49. |
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07/28/2006 11:50:56 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by mk:
As long as you keep your Have Not filth on your side of the tracks. I like to keep my side clean.
(Honestly, if you have such an issue with segregation, you ought to take some time to consider the way you present your issues.) |
If my presentation offended you, then it was effective. Then you understood my point of view on the icky "separate but equal" ring of the second exclusive challenge suggestion that always gets tossed in the second anyone raises an objection to being excluded from a challenge for lack of equipment. It's a slippery slope I don't care to start down. Why go there? There are other ways to present education on this site, and they don't involve excluding good photographers.
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07/28/2006 11:57:07 PM · #94 |
@Karmabreeze, if you could please explain why others, who do have the equipment, should not participate just because you cannot, that would be great.
Yes, we all pay the same membership fee. With that said, there's no challenge entry requirement to maintain membership privileges. Why should people who can't compete (regardless of skill level) dictate the level of competition? Do we always have to pander to lowest common denominator? |
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07/29/2006 12:06:58 AM · #95 |
Originally posted by L2:
@Karmabreeze, if you could please explain why others, who do have the equipment, should not participate just because you cannot, that would be great.
Yes, we all pay the same membership fee. With that said, there's no challenge entry requirement to maintain membership privileges. Why should people who can't compete (regardless of skill level) dictate the level of competition? Do we always have to pander to lowest common denominator? |
Ahh. So I'm the lowest common denominator now. Nice. The slippery slope is in sight.
Use your equipment to your heart's content on any challenge you like. After all, a camera with its own mortgage doesn't help you if you don't have vision. That is not my issue. My issue is when you start excluding people solely on the basis of equipment or lack thereof. I wouldn't endorse a straight P&S challenge, either. If all equipment levels cannot participate, then I am against it as a challenge concept. The end. What I don't understand is why people are so eager to put limits on who can and cannot enter.
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07/29/2006 12:26:58 AM · #96 |
@karmabreeze
hi,
With all due respect (maybe I missed something) but why would you not be able to enter the challenge that I suggested? Your camera has a full manual mode and manual focus. It also gives you the ability to shoot 1/125 or faster and you aperture range is within limits.
Did I miss something?
Message edited by author 2006-07-29 00:27:37.
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07/29/2006 12:27:37 AM · #97 |
uhh, and something like 'on the beach' isn't limiting geographically to many people? Challenges will always be limiting in some form or other...
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07/29/2006 12:29:20 AM · #98 |
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:
@karmabreeze
hi,
With all due respect (maybe I missed something) but why would you not be able to enter the challenge that I suggested? Your camera has a full manual mode and manual focus. It also gives you the ability to shoot 1/125 or faster and you aperture range is within limits.
Did I miss something? |
She's crusading for the other Have Nots. |
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07/29/2006 12:30:48 AM · #99 |
@ karmabreeze: I'm not sure I said that you, in particular, were the lowest common denominator...My point was merely that those who do not have, or do not know how to use their equipment well enough to participate in such a challenge might be considered by some...well, a bit selfish to expect that everyone else be limited in the same way.
When you say "...What I don't understand is why people are so eager to put limtis on who can and cannot enter" it makes me laugh, because that is exactly what you are trying to do.
Edited for clarity
Message edited by author 2006-07-29 00:31:26. |
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07/29/2006 12:31:34 AM · #100 |
It's not the end of the world if you have to sit out a challenge.
Use the week off to comment or browse comments.
I got my 25 bucks worth in the first 5 minutes as a member. It's a great site for everybody, quit trying to ruin it.
and another thing...lima beans sound pretty good to me. Try powdered eggs and powdered milk.
Message edited by author 2006-07-29 00:34:36. |
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