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08/01/2006 07:26:59 AM · #1 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
... As it is now, there is always at least one challenge a week that is suitable for any given member not only to be able to enter but ALSO to grow and learn from. And THAT is the point of the site. |
Very good point. This is what helps keep DPChallenge an exciting place, still, after numerous challenges and time spent here. |
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07/31/2006 08:27:25 PM · #2 |
Ok, I'm super lame. This still irks me, so I'm kicking the horse's corpse around for therapy's sake.
Here's why the broken leg metaphor doesn't hold up:
I'm arguing over the exclusion of a potentially substantial group. When voting controversy over uncounted votes from minorities surfaced in Florida, the government bent over backward to make sure their votes counted. They were a substantial group, and even though they were not rich, they mattered.
You're arguing over the exclusion of a single individual. An individual who is injured in such a way as to be prevented from voting gets no preferential treatment. But what would have happened if Katrina had hit on Election Day, leaving most of the state of Louisiana unable to vote? Do you really think that the federal government just would have written New Orleans off, said that they didn't really matter anyway? My guess is no.
We're arguing the difference between apples and oranges. Think of P&S users as a substantial group, not as a single individual. THAT is why the broken leg metaphor doesn't work.
Another voting metaphor that might better illustrate this from the individual standpoint: If someone shows up to a polling place with a lengthy line in a tricked out Ferrari, does he get to cut in line in front of the people who drove Honda Civics? Does his vote mean more than the one from the guy who walked?
Other reasons why this argument is going nowhere:
I'm arguing strictly equipment.
You're throwing skill level in as though it was my idea when skill level was never something I addressed and have continually pointed out to be irrelevant - which is your side's entire argument anyway. I agree with you on this! Stop telling me that I'm equating equipment with skill level when I never have done so!
I'm pointing out at every opportunity that you can use whatever technique and equipment you like on any challenge and learn from it and improve upon it and teach it and thus spread the wealth of knowledge, and yet still not hinder participation from anyone else. I am not arguing to stop anyone from expanding their horizons. I am not voting for a cap on individual growth, or discussion, or anything that might restrict on-site education. These things can and will still happen within an inclusive framework.
You're completely ignoring this part, even when I put it in bold so that it can't be missed.
Meh. And feh. And double feh. I really don't understand how this could possibly be so impossible for the rest of the world to see clearly. I'm happy to answer whatever may be asked of me via PM, but I'm putting this thread on Ignore now.
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07/31/2006 04:08:21 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by coronamv:
I say live with it MK is right! |
No one's bothered to explain why she's right. Possibly because she's not, but mk is mk and I am no one of consequence. Her broken leg metaphor doesn't hold up at all, but no one here wants to understand why, and I've given up on explaining it to people who are disturbingly happy to conveniently forget that the P&S folks want to learn and participate too. The mentality is distinctly Orwellian: "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others." But I also understand that mk is one of the cool kids and I'm a speck of nothing to DPC's social cliques, and I'm no stranger to schoolyard politics. Battles of that nature aren't worth fighting, and therefore, I fold. |
Actually people here have tried to explain why she's right. You have simply disagreed which is your prerogative but it seems you're in the minority. Oh and I feel the broken leg metaphor is actually spot on. Much more so than yours using suffragettes and the like.
I'm no one of consequence here (not that I think those agreeing with MK are doing so because she is). I'm not taking an opinion in order to support or butt up against someone I like/ dislike. And I'm certainly not in favour of forgetting P&S folks.
And yet I too agree with MK.
This site is about allowing ALL users to learn and grow and participate. And given the very wide range of equipment and skills levels that means providing some challenges that are better for some equipment and levels and some challenges that are better for others. As long as the balance is fair (which I feel it very much is) then I think everything is just fine. It's not the case that every challenge has to be suitable for every single kind of equipment and skills level because that would essentially lead to those with more complex equipment and/ or higher skills levels being unable to progress in some areas and they would likely no longer get anything from the site.
As it is now, there is always at least one challenge a week that is suitable for any given member not only to be able to enter but ALSO to grow and learn from. And THAT is the point of the site.
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07/29/2006 11:56:10 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by blemt:
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:
This horse has been beaten to death. We have been around and around. Let's just do a challenge everyone can do.
 Members Challenge: Spin and shoot
Details: Get a baseball or softball bat and place it big end down on the ground. Place your forehead on the knob of the bat. While holding your head on the bat now spin around in circles ten times. Pick up your camera and take a picture within 5 seconds spinning. :) j/k-ing |
This is unfair and discriminates against non baseball playing nations! I demand we expand the challenge to include cricket bats!
Ok for the Brits, Ausies and others once under the Commonweath of Great Britain. Here's the Cricket Bat entry ;) Sorry no sticky wickets.
;) |
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07/29/2006 11:07:48 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:
This horse has been beaten to death. We have been around and around. Let's just do a challenge everyone can do.
Members Challenge: Spin and shoot
Details: Get a baseball or softball bat and place it big end down on the ground. Place your forehead on the knob of the bat. While holding your head on the bat now spin around in circles ten times. Pick up your camera and take a picture within 5 seconds spinning. :) j/k-ing |
Oh, at LAST a challenge made for me! I do SO have y'all beaten here! Due to my deafness (the death of the nerves in my inner ears) I am completely immune to dizziness, vertigo, seasickness, and related bedevilments. Bring it ON!
R.
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07/29/2006 10:46:26 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:
This horse has been beaten to death. We have been around and around. Let's just do a challenge everyone can do.
Members Challenge: Spin and shoot
Details: Get a baseball or softball bat and place it big end down on the ground. Place your forehead on the knob of the bat. While holding your head on the bat now spin around in circles ten times. Pick up your camera and take a picture within 5 seconds spinning. :) j/k-ing
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Hey! I've got one of those. ;^)
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07/29/2006 10:26:05 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:
This horse has been beaten to death. We have been around and around. Let's just do a challenge everyone can do.
Members Challenge: Spin and shoot
Details: Get a baseball or softball bat and place it big end down on the ground. Place your forehead on the knob of the bat. While holding your head on the bat now spin around in circles ten times. Pick up your camera and take a picture within 5 seconds spinning. :) j/k-ing |
This is unfair and discriminates against non baseball playing nations! I demand we expand the challenge to include cricket bats!
;) |
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07/29/2006 10:24:40 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:
This horse has been beaten to death. We have been around and around. Let's just do a challenge everyone can do.
Members Challenge: Spin and shoot
Details: Get a baseball or softball bat and place it big end down on the ground. Place your forehead on the knob of the bat. While holding your head on the bat now spin around in circles ten times. Pick up your camera and take a picture within 5 seconds spinning. :) j/k-ing |
Ok they are spinning, now what? ;)
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07/29/2006 09:09:57 PM · #9 |
This horse has been beaten to death. We have been around and around. Let's just do a challenge everyone can do.
Members Challenge: Spin and shoot
Details: Get a baseball or softball bat and place it big end down on the ground. Place your forehead on the knob of the bat. While holding your head on the bat now spin around in circles ten times. Pick up your camera and take a picture within 5 seconds spinning. :) j/k-ing
Message edited by author 2006-07-29 21:21:59.
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07/29/2006 08:23:00 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:
Many point and shoot cameras have the ability to go into the menu and set it up to shot manually. My guess is 99.99%, Ivory Soap pure, most users with a Point and shoot have never even looked at their manual or menu or tried to set the time, Av or Tv.
Instead of complaining, how about users of the different PS camera study their owners manuals and let's get a list of which ones can be put into a manual mode. |
Actually, most of those cameras don't have those modes available. AV and TV are Canon specific modes, and many people do not have the Canon A series. That's one of the few lower end cameras that has those modes. :) |
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07/29/2006 08:17:15 PM · #11 |
I don't hate mk, but I think she hates me, which is just as bad or even worse...
R.
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07/29/2006 08:13:38 PM · #12 |
I hate mk too, but elas, she's hawt so I'd do her. Does that make her a cool kid? :/ hmmm.
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07/29/2006 08:09:49 PM · #13 |
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07/29/2006 08:08:41 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
But I also understand that mk is one of the cool kids and I'm a speck of nothing to DPC's social cliques, and I'm no stranger to schoolyard politics. Battles of that nature aren't worth fighting, and therefore, I fold. |
I can only imagine that everyone else is laughing at this twice as much as I am. |
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07/29/2006 08:04:01 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by coronamv:
I say live with it MK is right! |
No one's bothered to explain why she's right. Possibly because she's not, but mk is mk and I am no one of consequence. Her broken leg metaphor doesn't hold up at all, but no one here wants to understand why, and I've given up on explaining it to people who are disturbingly happy to conveniently forget that the P&S folks want to learn and participate too. The mentality is distinctly Orwellian: "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others." But I also understand that mk is one of the cool kids and I'm a speck of nothing to DPC's social cliques, and I'm no stranger to schoolyard politics. Battles of that nature aren't worth fighting, and therefore, I fold. |
What would be wrong with this challenge if it was an extra challenge like the fireworks challenge was. Instead of having three challenges that week there would be four. That way no one is left out. Like the Best of 2002 challenge that was held this year. It was an extra speed challenge and there were four challenges that week.
Then if a person has a P&S that has full manual functions then they could use the manual mode as a leaning experience. I for one find a P&S camera very good and the users as well. Yes I have a dSLR but that does not give me an advantage over someone with a P&S that has a manual mode.
However I would want everyone to put in there particulars when taking their picture. I want to be able to look at their picture and look at the conditions and what settings they choose to complete the shoot. So I can learn more.
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07/29/2006 07:52:29 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
I say live with it MK is right! |
No one's bothered to explain why she's right. Possibly because she's not, but mk is mk and I am no one of consequence. Her broken leg metaphor doesn't hold up at all, but no one here wants to understand why, and I've given up on explaining it to people who are disturbingly happy to conveniently forget that the P&S folks want to learn and participate too. The mentality is distinctly Orwellian: "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others." But I also understand that mk is one of the cool kids and I'm a speck of nothing to DPC's social cliques, and I'm no stranger to schoolyard politics. Battles of that nature aren't worth fighting, and therefore, I fold.
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07/29/2006 07:48:12 PM · #17 |
Have it as a Members Speed Challenge [Manual Mode].
Problem Solved!
Then there will still be a Regular member challenge.
Message edited by author 2006-07-29 19:49:12.
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07/29/2006 07:27:03 PM · #18 |
| I say live with it MK is right! |
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07/29/2006 07:22:06 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Because your way is not inclusive of everyone. Mine is.
I would like to reiterate that my P&S does have manual controls. And it has lenses and filters. But the state of my equipment is not the point. To use another potentially offensive historical metaphor, it was just as selfish for women to demand the right to vote, because wow, we really just wanted the vote all to ourselves? How dare we demand inclusion? Heaven forbid should I want every photographer on this site to have a chance at every challenge.
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Actually, what you're suggesting is more akin to someone breaking their leg or not having a vehicle and not being able to make it to the polling booth and then suggesting that the entire election be called off on account of them. But bonus points for being able to compare missing one of two challenges to both women's suffrage and Soviet communism. I am off to polish my silver. Woohoo two legs! |
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07/29/2006 06:48:27 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by Marjo:
It's not the end of the world if you have to sit out a challenge.
Use the week off to comment or browse comments.
I got my 25 bucks worth in the first 5 minutes as a member. It's a great site for everybody, quit trying to ruin it.
and another thing...lima beans sound pretty good to me. Try powdered eggs and powdered milk. |
And if I'm on a WPL team that expects my participation? What then? Granted that's off site, but yes, it can indeed be a big deal if I or anyone else am stripped of the choice of participation. |
How does being on a WPL team differ from owning or not owning a dSLR?
Can we not have the challenge because it 'only' (beg to differ) suits dSLR owners?
Or are we segregating on being member of a WPL team? |
I was merely pointing out one very valid reason why it could potentially be a bigger deal than the OP thought. In that case, being forced to sit out hurts more than one person. But I'm done. If you don't get it, you don't get it. |
I don't get it, I have bad karma today. :)
We have different opinions, no big deal imo.
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07/29/2006 06:45:36 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by Marjo:
It's not the end of the world if you have to sit out a challenge.
Use the week off to comment or browse comments.
I got my 25 bucks worth in the first 5 minutes as a member. It's a great site for everybody, quit trying to ruin it.
and another thing...lima beans sound pretty good to me. Try powdered eggs and powdered milk. |
And if I'm on a WPL team that expects my participation? What then? Granted that's off site, but yes, it can indeed be a big deal if I or anyone else am stripped of the choice of participation. |
How does being on a WPL team differ from owning or not owning a dSLR?
Can we not have the challenge because it 'only' (beg to differ) suits dSLR owners?
Or are we segregating on being member of a WPL team? |
I was merely pointing out one very valid reason why it could potentially be a bigger deal than the OP thought. In that case, being forced to sit out hurts more than one person. But I'm done. If you don't get it, you don't get it.
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07/29/2006 06:42:44 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by L2:
@ karmabreeze: I'm not sure I said that you, in particular, were the lowest common denominator...My point was merely that those who do not have, or do not know how to use their equipment well enough to participate in such a challenge might be considered by some...well, a bit selfish to expect that everyone else be limited in the same way.
When you say "...What I don't understand is why people are so eager to put limtis on who can and cannot enter" it makes me laugh, because that is exactly what you are trying to do.
Edited for clarity |
Use whatever camera and whatever equipment you like on any challenge you like. Likewise, use whatever PP technique suits you on any challenge that suits you. Where does that limit anyone?
And selfish? I think it's rather selfish for people with specialized equipment to expect challenges to cater to them to the exclusion of the rest of the membership. |
Manual controls aren't exactly "specialized." They're pretty standard. But that's basically what you're suggesting...that people with a certain kind of equipment expect challenges to cater to them at the exclusion of the rest of the membership. Why isn't it selfish when you say it? |
Because your way is not inclusive of everyone. Mine is.
I would like to reiterate that my P&S does have manual controls. And it has lenses and filters. But the state of my equipment is not the point. To use another potentially offensive historical metaphor, it was just as selfish for women to demand the right to vote, because wow, we really just wanted the vote all to ourselves? How dare we demand inclusion? Heaven forbid should I want every photographer on this site to have a chance at every challenge.
This is not about good vs. bad. As was pointed out, this is a learning site. And you may own a Hasselblad but you still need a modicrum of know-how and creativity to make it work for you. You may have CS2 but you still have to learn to use it. We learn by entering challenges and receiving scores and comments. We also learn on the message boards, where "illegal" editing techniques and specific equipment are often discussed and compared at length with no exclusionary stakes. There's even a forum intended solely for individual photo critique "Hey guys, I just got the most obscure toy ever and I ran it through a totally bizarro photo editing technique, what do you think? Post your examples here!" Nothing is keeping anyone from engaging in that debate there. I'm going to bold this next sentence because it's important and I've said it several times throughout this debate and yet everyone overlooks it in favor of calling me selfish: Nothing is keeping anyone from using those techniques (if they're legal per editing rules) and equipment on a conceptual challenge, kicking ass and taking names in doing so, and then using that success to educate the community on how it is accomplished.
So very selfish of me to want to include people who are likely to outscore me at every turn, right? To include people with better equipment and with 2mp point and shoots. To include is being equated with selfishness?? That such a ridiculous statement it's laughable and I cannot possibly consider taking it seriously.
However, it's obvious this argument is getting nowhere, and I've run out of ways to explain the obvious to people who clearly don't want to see it. If you don't get it after all that, you likely never will. How sad.
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07/29/2006 06:19:56 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
And yet we paid the same membership fee. So much for equal opportunity. |
You don't have to pay a fee to participate in the open challenges, the use of which I suggested for a topic like this.
Nore is this limited to people with SLR's, there are loads of p&s and prosumer cameras that allow manual exposure.
And I totally don't get this segregation thing related to the quality produced. If you'd run two open challenges, one full manual, the other auto, you have in fact two "Free Study" challenges. There is nothing that can predict the quality of the photos in either challenge.
Also what others said; Cityscape discriminates people who live in the country, landscape the ones who live in Manhattan, studio portrait the ones without a studio. The last fireworks challenge around the 4th of July, well the rest of the world does not have fireworks on that day. The lenscap challenge, well there are so many cameras out there without a lenscap. On the other and I see loads of challenges suitable to everyone. |
Cityscape can easily be Main Street in any small town.
All you need for a studio portrait is a sheet for a backdrop, a couple lamps, and someone to sit.
Nothing was stopping an Icelander from lighting a sparkler.
Lenscap, well, that was mostly just dumb. (Sorry, D&L) And spare lenscaps tend to be so cheap as to be a non-issue.
On the Beach's description was so inclusive that it the creek that runs through the field behind your Nebraska farmhouse would have met the challenge. And a little sand and some paper drink umbrellas would have faked it well enough.
Anything conceptuual can be faked with a little ingenuity. EXIF data proving certain parameters, however, cannot.
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07/29/2006 06:03:32 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by Marjo:
It's not the end of the world if you have to sit out a challenge.
Use the week off to comment or browse comments.
I got my 25 bucks worth in the first 5 minutes as a member. It's a great site for everybody, quit trying to ruin it.
and another thing...lima beans sound pretty good to me. Try powdered eggs and powdered milk. |
And if I'm on a WPL team that expects my participation? What then? Granted that's off site, but yes, it can indeed be a big deal if I or anyone else am stripped of the choice of participation. |
How does being on a WPL team differ from owning or not owning a dSLR?
Can we not have the challenge because it 'only' (beg to differ) suits dSLR owners?
Or are we segregating on being member of a WPL team?
Message edited by author 2006-07-29 18:04:43.
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07/29/2006 05:57:24 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by L2:
@ karmabreeze: I'm not sure I said that you, in particular, were the lowest common denominator...My point was merely that those who do not have, or do not know how to use their equipment well enough to participate in such a challenge might be considered by some...well, a bit selfish to expect that everyone else be limited in the same way.
When you say "...What I don't understand is why people are so eager to put limtis on who can and cannot enter" it makes me laugh, because that is exactly what you are trying to do.
Edited for clarity |
Use whatever camera and whatever equipment you like on any challenge you like. Likewise, use whatever PP technique suits you on any challenge that suits you. Where does that limit anyone?
And selfish? I think it's rather selfish for people with specialized equipment to expect challenges to cater to them to the exclusion of the rest of the membership. |
Manual controls aren't exactly "specialized." They're pretty standard. But that's basically what you're suggesting...that people with a certain kind of equipment expect challenges to cater to them at the exclusion of the rest of the membership. Why isn't it selfish when you say it? |
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Members Challenge: Spin and shoot
