Manual Mode - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM

07/29/2006 06:37:49 AM · #106

I'm quite surprised at the suggestion that this challenge is elitist or excludes a set of people. Yeah, I'm sure that there are folk out there with P&S cameras that can't manage the parameters, but, really, look at this in the bigger picture.

Nude challenges - not everyone has a studio and a selection of models.

Beach challenges - some folk live landlocked, miles from anything even resembling a beach.

Macro - Folk with dSLRs without macro lenses could have trouble here.

And, on top of all that, you've got advanced editing challenges. What if I don't have Photoshop CS2, or I'm just no good at using it? (which I'm not, as it goes). Should we not allow any post-processing so we don't descriminate?

Apple iPhone 5

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

07/29/2006 06:43:51 AM · #107

I've found the discriminator which is present in *all* challenges is that which excludes lazy people.

If I'm too lazy to enter a challenge, then why should everyone else have all the fun?

SDW

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

07/29/2006 08:29:03 AM · #108

Originally posted by mist:

Some others, this year alone that excluded some photographers.
Best Of 2002
30 Seconds or More
Fireworks

mist

Canon EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM

07/29/2006 09:11:16 AM · #109

Yup. Anyhow the point that I was trying to get at (and failed to mention) was that I seriously doubt that the original poster suggested this challenge with the deliberate intent of excluding people. More likely it was an exercise in getting people to try the setting out.

PhantomEWO

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

07/29/2006 10:27:29 AM · #110

Many point and shoot cameras have the ability to go into the menu and set it up to shot manually. My guess is 99.99%, Ivory Soap pure, most users with a Point and shoot have never even looked at their manual or menu or tried to set the time, Av or Tv.

Instead of complaining, how about users of the different PS camera study their owners manuals and let's get a list of which ones can be put into a manual mode.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

07/29/2006 10:30:11 AM · #111

Manual Mode: read the Manual before shooting.

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good idea ;o)

moniepenny

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM

07/29/2006 11:07:59 AM · #112

Originally posted by PhantomEWO:

Woohoo I'm part of the 0.01% who does. My manual setting lets me control +/- exp, iso, and picture effects. That's it.

07/29/2006 05:30:46 PM · #113

Originally posted by L2:

@ karmabreeze: I'm not sure I said that you, in particular, were the lowest common denominator...My point was merely that those who do not have, or do not know how to use their equipment well enough to participate in such a challenge might be considered by some...well, a bit selfish to expect that everyone else be limited in the same way.

When you say "...What I don't understand is why people are so eager to put limtis on who can and cannot enter" it makes me laugh, because that is exactly what you are trying to do.

Edited for clarity

Use whatever camera and whatever equipment you like on any challenge you like. Likewise, use whatever PP technique suits you on any challenge that suits you. Where does that limit anyone?

And selfish? I think it's rather selfish for people with specialized equipment to expect challenges to cater to them to the exclusion of the rest of the membership.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

07/29/2006 05:32:54 PM · #114

Originally posted by Marjo:

It's not the end of the world if you have to sit out a challenge.
Use the week off to comment or browse comments.
I got my 25 bucks worth in the first 5 minutes as a member. It's a great site for everybody, quit trying to ruin it.

and another thing...lima beans sound pretty good to me. Try powdered eggs and powdered milk.

And if I'm on a WPL team that expects my participation? What then? Granted that's off site, but yes, it can indeed be a big deal if I or anyone else am stripped of the choice of participation.

Canon EOS-20D

07/29/2006 05:57:24 PM · #115

Originally posted by karmabreeze:

Originally posted by L2:
@ karmabreeze: I'm not sure I said that you, in particular, were the lowest common denominator...My point was merely that those who do not have, or do not know how to use their equipment well enough to participate in such a challenge might be considered by some...well, a bit selfish to expect that everyone else be limited in the same way.

When you say "...What I don't understand is why people are so eager to put limtis on who can and cannot enter" it makes me laugh, because that is exactly what you are trying to do.

Edited for clarity

Use whatever camera and whatever equipment you like on any challenge you like. Likewise, use whatever PP technique suits you on any challenge that suits you. Where does that limit anyone?

And selfish? I think it's rather selfish for people with specialized equipment to expect challenges to cater to them to the exclusion of the rest of the membership.

Manual controls aren't exactly "specialized." They're pretty standard. But that's basically what you're suggesting...that people with a certain kind of equipment expect challenges to cater to them at the exclusion of the rest of the membership. Why isn't it selfish when you say it?

Azrifel

Nikon Coolpix P340

07/29/2006 06:03:32 PM · #116

Originally posted by karmabreeze:

Originally posted by Marjo:
It's not the end of the world if you have to sit out a challenge.
Use the week off to comment or browse comments.
I got my 25 bucks worth in the first 5 minutes as a member. It's a great site for everybody, quit trying to ruin it.

and another thing...lima beans sound pretty good to me. Try powdered eggs and powdered milk.

And if I'm on a WPL team that expects my participation? What then? Granted that's off site, but yes, it can indeed be a big deal if I or anyone else am stripped of the choice of participation.

How does being on a WPL team differ from owning or not owning a dSLR?
Can we not have the challenge because it 'only' (beg to differ) suits dSLR owners?
Or are we segregating on being member of a WPL team?

Message edited by author 2006-07-29 18:04:43.

07/29/2006 06:19:56 PM · #117

Originally posted by Azrifel:

Originally posted by karmabreeze:
And yet we paid the same membership fee. So much for equal opportunity.

You don't have to pay a fee to participate in the open challenges, the use of which I suggested for a topic like this.

Nore is this limited to people with SLR's, there are loads of p&s and prosumer cameras that allow manual exposure.

And I totally don't get this segregation thing related to the quality produced. If you'd run two open challenges, one full manual, the other auto, you have in fact two "Free Study" challenges. There is nothing that can predict the quality of the photos in either challenge.
Also what others said; Cityscape discriminates people who live in the country, landscape the ones who live in Manhattan, studio portrait the ones without a studio. The last fireworks challenge around the 4th of July, well the rest of the world does not have fireworks on that day. The lenscap challenge, well there are so many cameras out there without a lenscap. On the other and I see loads of challenges suitable to everyone.

Cityscape can easily be Main Street in any small town.
All you need for a studio portrait is a sheet for a backdrop, a couple lamps, and someone to sit.
Nothing was stopping an Icelander from lighting a sparkler.
Lenscap, well, that was mostly just dumb. (Sorry, D&L) And spare lenscaps tend to be so cheap as to be a non-issue.
On the Beach's description was so inclusive that it the creek that runs through the field behind your Nebraska farmhouse would have met the challenge. And a little sand and some paper drink umbrellas would have faked it well enough.

Anything conceptuual can be faked with a little ingenuity. EXIF data proving certain parameters, however, cannot.

07/29/2006 06:42:44 PM · #118

Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by karmabreeze:

Originally posted by L2:
@ karmabreeze: I'm not sure I said that you, in particular, were the lowest common denominator...My point was merely that those who do not have, or do not know how to use their equipment well enough to participate in such a challenge might be considered by some...well, a bit selfish to expect that everyone else be limited in the same way.

When you say "...What I don't understand is why people are so eager to put limtis on who can and cannot enter" it makes me laugh, because that is exactly what you are trying to do.

Edited for clarity

Use whatever camera and whatever equipment you like on any challenge you like. Likewise, use whatever PP technique suits you on any challenge that suits you. Where does that limit anyone?

And selfish? I think it's rather selfish for people with specialized equipment to expect challenges to cater to them to the exclusion of the rest of the membership.

Manual controls aren't exactly "specialized." They're pretty standard. But that's basically what you're suggesting...that people with a certain kind of equipment expect challenges to cater to them at the exclusion of the rest of the membership. Why isn't it selfish when you say it?

Because your way is not inclusive of everyone. Mine is.

I would like to reiterate that my P&S does have manual controls. And it has lenses and filters. But the state of my equipment is not the point. To use another potentially offensive historical metaphor, it was just as selfish for women to demand the right to vote, because wow, we really just wanted the vote all to ourselves? How dare we demand inclusion? Heaven forbid should I want every photographer on this site to have a chance at every challenge.

This is not about good vs. bad. As was pointed out, this is a learning site. And you may own a Hasselblad but you still need a modicrum of know-how and creativity to make it work for you. You may have CS2 but you still have to learn to use it. We learn by entering challenges and receiving scores and comments. We also learn on the message boards, where "illegal" editing techniques and specific equipment are often discussed and compared at length with no exclusionary stakes. There's even a forum intended solely for individual photo critique "Hey guys, I just got the most obscure toy ever and I ran it through a totally bizarro photo editing technique, what do you think? Post your examples here!" Nothing is keeping anyone from engaging in that debate there. I'm going to bold this next sentence because it's important and I've said it several times throughout this debate and yet everyone overlooks it in favor of calling me selfish: Nothing is keeping anyone from using those techniques (if they're legal per editing rules) and equipment on a conceptual challenge, kicking ass and taking names in doing so, and then using that success to educate the community on how it is accomplished.

So very selfish of me to want to include people who are likely to outscore me at every turn, right? To include people with better equipment and with 2mp point and shoots. To include is being equated with selfishness?? That such a ridiculous statement it's laughable and I cannot possibly consider taking it seriously.

However, it's obvious this argument is getting nowhere, and I've run out of ways to explain the obvious to people who clearly don't want to see it. If you don't get it after all that, you likely never will. How sad.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

07/29/2006 06:45:36 PM · #119

Originally posted by Azrifel:

Originally posted by karmabreeze:

Originally posted by Marjo:
It's not the end of the world if you have to sit out a challenge.
Use the week off to comment or browse comments.
I got my 25 bucks worth in the first 5 minutes as a member. It's a great site for everybody, quit trying to ruin it.

and another thing...lima beans sound pretty good to me. Try powdered eggs and powdered milk.

And if I'm on a WPL team that expects my participation? What then? Granted that's off site, but yes, it can indeed be a big deal if I or anyone else am stripped of the choice of participation.

How does being on a WPL team differ from owning or not owning a dSLR?
Can we not have the challenge because it 'only' (beg to differ) suits dSLR owners?
Or are we segregating on being member of a WPL team?

I was merely pointing out one very valid reason why it could potentially be a bigger deal than the OP thought. In that case, being forced to sit out hurts more than one person. But I'm done. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

Azrifel

Nikon Coolpix P340

07/29/2006 06:48:27 PM · #120

Originally posted by karmabreeze:

Originally posted by Azrifel:

Originally posted by karmabreeze:

Originally posted by Marjo:
It's not the end of the world if you have to sit out a challenge.
Use the week off to comment or browse comments.
I got my 25 bucks worth in the first 5 minutes as a member. It's a great site for everybody, quit trying to ruin it.

and another thing...lima beans sound pretty good to me. Try powdered eggs and powdered milk.

And if I'm on a WPL team that expects my participation? What then? Granted that's off site, but yes, it can indeed be a big deal if I or anyone else am stripped of the choice of participation.

How does being on a WPL team differ from owning or not owning a dSLR?
Can we not have the challenge because it 'only' (beg to differ) suits dSLR owners?
Or are we segregating on being member of a WPL team?

I was merely pointing out one very valid reason why it could potentially be a bigger deal than the OP thought. In that case, being forced to sit out hurts more than one person. But I'm done. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

I don't get it, I have bad karma today. :)
We have different opinions, no big deal imo.

Canon EOS-20D

07/29/2006 07:22:06 PM · #121

Originally posted by karmabreeze:

Actually, what you're suggesting is more akin to someone breaking their leg or not having a vehicle and not being able to make it to the polling booth and then suggesting that the entire election be called off on account of them. But bonus points for being able to compare missing one of two challenges to both women's suffrage and Soviet communism. I am off to polish my silver. Woohoo two legs!

coronamv

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Sigma 24-70mm F2.8 IF EX DG HSM for Canon

07/29/2006 07:27:03 PM · #122

I say live with it MK is right!

SDW

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

07/29/2006 07:48:12 PM · #123

Have it as a Members Speed Challenge [Manual Mode].
Problem Solved!

Then there will still be a Regular member challenge.

Message edited by author 2006-07-29 19:49:12.

07/29/2006 07:52:29 PM · #124

Originally posted by coronamv:

I say live with it MK is right!

No one's bothered to explain why she's right. Possibly because she's not, but mk is mk and I am no one of consequence. Her broken leg metaphor doesn't hold up at all, but no one here wants to understand why, and I've given up on explaining it to people who are disturbingly happy to conveniently forget that the P&S folks want to learn and participate too. The mentality is distinctly Orwellian: "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others." But I also understand that mk is one of the cool kids and I'm a speck of nothing to DPC's social cliques, and I'm no stranger to schoolyard politics. Battles of that nature aren't worth fighting, and therefore, I fold.

SDW