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07/28/2006 01:06:12 PM · #51
Originally posted by coolhar:

Originally posted by talmy:

.... For instance, to control DOF I set the aperture to what I desire then adjust the shutter speed for the correct exposure. To freeze movement I set the shutter spped then adjust the aperture for correct exposure. ...

When shooting for a desired DoF, and the "manual only" photog has set their camera to the correct aperture, how does he/she know what shutter speed to select? Shooting in Av lets the camera set the correct shutter speed. If the photog thinks he/she can meter light in their head, and make that decision better than their camera's electronics, that photog either has an exceptionally good (approaching superhuman) eye for light conditions; or is deluding themself. In most cases it would the latter. Trying to tell people that a normal person can do the job of a light meter in their head as well as, or better than, a camera is where the snobbery comes into play.


IN the 20D, and indeed in all digital cameras I have personally used, when in manual mode an exposure bar shows up int he bottom of the viewfinder window. It's exactly like the one we used to have on early through-the-lens meters on SLR cameras. When you adjust one of your parameters, the little arrow moves back and forth across the bar. So you set the aperture you want, say, and then change shutter speeds to put the arrow where you want it. You're still using the camera's metering system, not some "superhuman" sense.

It's exactly like the EV Compensation bar, actually: the further to the right you move the arrow, the more "over" you are shooting, and vice versa. The only difference is that it doesn't "lock in" a particular compensation, that will then carry over to the next shot. Instead, it locks in a particular EXPOSURE, that has to be checked for each shot. Once you get in the habit of doing that, you're in complete control.

When I am using Ac or Tv mode and EV Compensation, I have a tendency to forget I have dialed it in, and it comes back and bites me when I can least afford it. Since I reserve Av and Tv modes for "fast shooting", I prefer to leave my exposure compensation at neutral so I can always just select one of those modes and fire away without hesitation. If I want to THINK about what I'm doing with exposure, I just go over to manual and twiddle both shutter speed and aperture to move the needle where i want it for each shot.,

R.

Message edited by author 2006-07-28 13:06:32.
07/28/2006 01:20:16 PM · #52
Originally posted by talmy:

Sorry, but this makes no sense.

It doesn't really make any difference which mode you use. All you are doing is setting exposure -- in manual you set the aperture and shutter speed directly, but in the aperture/shutter priority modes while you set one and the other is set by the camera, you can override with the EV setting. So still two manual controls allow setting both aperture and shutter speed.

I almost always shoot in manual mode because for me it is easier (my first SLR had no metering and the second had TTL metering that was basically more manual than manual is now). Aperture and shutter priority, (shudder) Program and Auto modes, and auto-ISO just add confusion to a basically simple process (from a mechanical point of view) of setting the exposure.

Now the "revised" extra rules "To make the challenge more challenging your shutter speed must be 1/125 or faster and your aperture must be between f/1.4 and f/8.0." do provide a challenge of their own although I'm not really sure what the impact would be other than potentially limiting depth of field and ruling out many low-light shots.


I can't believe it took this long for someone to logically look at the proposal for what it's worth.... Every mode does the EXACT same thing. The only difference between them is which element you "control" (aperture or shutter speed).

Manual mode takes vitrually no extra skill to use than P mode. All you are doing is choosing either an aperture setting or shutter speed, then lining up your LED lights so the other element presents you with a "properly exposed image". P mode just eliminates the step of turning the wheel until the LEDs tell you it's a proper exposure. If you have your camera in P mode, and it gives you an aperture of 5.6 when you'd rather use 11, then all you have to do is rotate the wheel to 11 and the shutter speed will be slowed down automatically to compensate for exposure. This is EXACTLY the same as using M mode and deciding to change your aperture from 5.6 to 11 and then manually searching for the correct exposure...the only difference is having to take the time to find it.

Manual mode is mostly useful when you want to overexpose or underexpose your image, because, in my opinion, it it a little faster to do than change the +/- exp. setting (at least on my camera, and all three previous ones). If this is what the challenge proposal is getting at, then why not just make a "overexpose/underexpose your image using the camera instead of PhotoShop. But I am certain that this was not the idea behind the challenge proposal.

Av and Tv modes (again, in my opinion) are completely useless, because you can do the exact same thing in P mode by adjusting the different aperture/shutter speed combinations simultaneously. All three Av, Tv, and P modes are limited at both ends by aperture size and max shutter speed, so your options in Av and Tv versus P mode are EXACTLY the same. The only thing M mode does that these modes cannot is set Apertures and Shutter Speeds together that will NOT produce a "proper exposure"... resulting in overexposure or underexposure....which brings us back full circle to the only reason a challenge would be based on M mode: for over/underexposure. Even then, images can be over/underexposed in Av, Tv, and P modes using the +/- exp. option.

By limiting the apertures and shutter speeds in the extra rules, you are only limiting the ammount of light the image is able to be made in. If the setting limits are used in the wrong lighting, your image will result in being overexposed or underexposed. So your Challenge Proposal Is pretty much "Shoot in this ammount of light" Which I don't find too appealing. Now, a Low-key Image" or "high-key Image" challenge would be a much better way to word it... but I don't believe that you really meant for it to be that either.

I know this probably comes off as a rant, but I couldn't believe it took a page-and-a-half before someone realized that the challenge doesn't make sense. Manual mode takes NO extra skill than any other mode besides faster-working fingers to get a shot when the opportunity arises...and it is so SIMPLE that the knowledge of someone making ANY image in M mode isn't at all more impressive than any other mode.

Is there anyone else here who has been classically trained in film photography? Because I have taken many film classes, and it is the norm to use Manual mode... it just makes learning the actual exposure process come easier. Today, however, In the digital world, Manual mode is comprised of simply lining up LED lights, which in turn won't teach anyone here anything.

Apologies for the length.
07/28/2006 01:35:53 PM · #53
Yup, my 20D works like that too Robert.

I guess my mistake was in reading the "I only shoot in Manual" guys to mean that they were able to select aperture and shutter speed to get correct exposure without relying on the camera's electronics to help them. That, to me at least, would be a truely remarkable skill regardless of it relevence. I think I made this mistake because I could not concieve of any advantage in using Manual if you are still going to look at what the camera is recommending, and then use that to select settings to input manually.
07/28/2006 01:46:35 PM · #54
Originally posted by fstopstigmata:

... I couldn't believe it took a page-and-a-half before someone realized that the challenge doesn't make sense. ...

Very nice.

If you have some better suggestions perhaps you could try here?

I for one think this challenge sounds like fun, and if it gets people to see just how "easy" it is to shoot in manual mode, then I guess there will have been some learning going on.
07/28/2006 02:07:20 PM · #55
Originally posted by coolhar:


I guess my mistake was in reading the "I only shoot in Manual" guys to mean that they were able to select aperture and shutter speed to get correct exposure without relying on the camera's electronics to help them. That, to me at least, would be a truely remarkable skill regardless of it relevence.


Jejeje™ I actually CAN do that (all those years of 4x5 photography instilled that ability in me) but it's not a skill I recommend anyone struggle to learn. It used to be a good thing to know how to do when cameras were mechanical and used batteries for the built-in light meters (if the battery failed, you could still get your shot) but it's rather pointless with an electronic camera :-) Still, see my entry in "10" for a by-guess-and-by-gosh exposure that was right on the money...

R.
07/28/2006 02:14:07 PM · #56
Originally posted by fstopstigmata:


Is there anyone else here who has been classically trained in film photography? Because I have taken many film classes, and it is the norm to use Manual mode... it just makes learning the actual exposure process come easier. Today, however, In the digital world, Manual mode is comprised of simply lining up LED lights, which in turn won't teach anyone here anything.


I for one thank Pete and everyone else that I DON'T have to learn all the inner workings of the exposure process. I really don't care WHY it works or HOW it works, I just want it to work, and my camera does that work for me. I have enough in my life to keep me occupied without having to figure out all that. I've never had a film class, and I've never lost sleep over that fact. I can operate my camera in any of the modes it offers, because if it looks wrong after I shoot, I change what was wrong and try again. Hooray for digital, LED lights, and all the other bells and whistles that make me love my hobby more and more every day. :)
07/28/2006 02:24:44 PM · #57
Originally posted by coolhar:

When shooting for a desired DoF, and the "manual only" photog has set their camera to the correct aperture, how does he/she know what shutter speed to select? Trying to tell people that a normal person can do the job of a light meter in their head as well as, or better than, a camera is where the snobbery comes into play.


I don't know about your 20D camera but mine didn't come with spot metering nor do I use a handheld light meter. Sure the camera can meter light but it's not always accurate especially with the metering systems it does have hence the need for EV compensation, grey cards to "help" the camera out, etc. The manual mode gives the photographer more control over making those "adjustments" to get the right exposure.

Originally posted by coolhar:

Yup, my 20D works like that too Robert.

I guess my mistake was in reading the "I only shoot in Manual" guys to mean that they were able to select aperture and shutter speed to get correct exposure without relying on the camera's electronics to help them. That, to me at least, would be a truely remarkable skill regardless of it relevence. I think I made this mistake because I could not concieve of any advantage in using Manual if you are still going to look at what the camera is recommending, and then use that to select settings to input manually.


Huh? What Robert explained was how the camera exposure compensation bar works. That's it. You act like those that shoot in manual mode simply just go by whatever the camera tells them with that funky exposure bar. I don't know about you but I almost never shoot with it directly in the middle which is what the camera is telling you is the correct exposure yet often it is not.
07/28/2006 03:10:59 PM · #58
Originally posted by yanko:


Huh? What Robert explained was how the camera exposure compensation bar works. That's it. You act like those that shoot in manual mode simply just go by whatever the camera tells them with that funky exposure bar. I don't know about you but I almost never shoot with it directly in the middle which is what the camera is telling you is the correct exposure yet often it is not.


Bingo. You can shoot in full manual and nudge either aperture or shutter speed to get the exposure where you want it, or you can shoot in Av/Tv and nudge the exposure compensation dial to do the same thing. Full manual is just more intuitive for me, but the end result is the same either way.

R.

Edit to add: bear in mind that the 20D has TWO "wheels" to play with, and in manual mode one controls aperture and the other shutter speed. So it's a sight-free operation for me, I can adjust either or both without peeking, see the results in the viewfinder window. On cameras that require you to toggle a single control between aperture/shutter speed (I think the 350xt is like this) then it is quite possible at Av/Tv mode plus exposure compensation is the simpler approach.

Message edited by author 2006-07-28 15:13:35.
07/28/2006 03:15:13 PM · #59
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:

Challenge: Manual mode
Details:Show off your photographer skills by shooting in the manual mode only.

Extra Rules: To make the challenge more challenging your Tv must be = or > 1/125 and your Av must be = or < 8.0. Failure to shoot in manual mode and within the Tv and Av limits are grounds for DQ.


Well crap. Since I don't have a Canon I guess I can't enter this challenge. I don't have Tv. Sniff, sniff. :P
07/28/2006 03:56:50 PM · #60
Originally posted by yanko:

I don't know about your 20D camera but mine didn't come with spot metering nor do I use a handheld light meter. Sure the camera can meter light but it's not always accurate especially with the metering systems it does have hence the need for EV compensation, grey cards to "help" the camera out, etc. The manual mode gives the photographer more control over making those "adjustments" to get the right exposure.
Depends on how you define "correct exposure", and whether or not you are trying to achieve it. In most cases the camera will be correct, and what you achieve by straying from its recommendations are choices of taste and/or style.

Originally posted by yanko:

Huh? What Robert explained was how the camera exposure compensation bar works. That's it. You act like those that shoot in manual mode simply just go by whatever the camera tells them with that funky exposure bar. I don't know about you but I almost never shoot with it directly in the middle which is what the camera is telling you is the correct exposure yet often it is not.
So you think the people who don't shoot in M mode all the time "simply just go by ... that funky exposure bar"?

I go back to my original thinking and ask you what is the advantage of using M over Av or Tv (leaving out the snobbery) if you are going to use the camera's electronics to guide your decisions on aperture and/or shutter speed?
07/28/2006 04:01:12 PM · #61
Originally posted by coolhar:

To all the posters who have said they only use Manual mode, and to the ones who have made jokes like "is ther any other mode", I say get a life. You really need to get out more.


I shoot manual, yes.

No, I don't need to get out more. This is what I've learned. This is what I like.

Why change that?
07/28/2006 04:06:39 PM · #62
As long as we aren't talking about Manual Focus, I'm in.

Manual Mode isn't scary, I mean hell that's what that exposure meter at the bottom of the viewfinder is for :-P Oh, wait, what is this histogram thingy? EASY challenge.
07/28/2006 04:10:11 PM · #63
I'm okay with the idea of the challenge, but I think your aperture and shutter speed restrictions are in a boring range.
07/28/2006 04:15:53 PM · #64
811 views and over 60 post and people are still bickering about the manual mode vs. other modes. That alone should be grounds to make this a valid challenge. If you shoot in manual mode and feel this is a stupid challenge suggestion then take it as a free study and maybe you will win. But for those that have never or rarely shoot in manual just maybe, possibly they will learn something.

I knew when I posted this challenge it would cause all kinds of replies but never did I think it would go this far. I think glad2badad said it best when he said "I for one think this challenge sounds like fun, and if it gets people to see just how "easy" it is to shoot in manual mode, then I guess there will have been some learning going on.". I think that's what we need around here is more learning challenges than challenges that produce eye candy shots with foggy at best descriptions.
SDW
07/28/2006 04:51:28 PM · #65
Originally posted by coolhar:

I go back to my original thinking and ask you what is the advantage of using M over Av or Tv (leaving out the snobbery) if you are going to use the camera's electronics to guide your decisions on aperture and/or shutter speed?

Using M, you can forget about that switch and only have to adjust aperture and shutter. If you use Av or Tv you have three controls and have to adjust two of the three to get the exposure you want -- aperture or shutter AND EV. So instead of fidding with three controls and a selector switch you only have to fiddle with two controls. Much easier to comprehend.

I expect that people who have learned photography recently, and informally, especially using an automatic camera might have a fear of Manual. And anyone who learned over 30 years ago would have also learned on cameras that only had manual, or no metering at all! And my experience with P&S cameras is that using manual mode on them is a PITA -- they weren't designed to be used that way. But for most DSLRs that isn't the case, the exceptions being the "entry level" cameras that don't have separate wheels for aperture and shutter speed.
07/28/2006 04:56:30 PM · #66
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:

Extra Rules: To make the challenge more challenging your Tv must be = or > 1/125 and your Av must be = or < 8.0. Failure to shoot in manual mode and within the Tv and Av limits are grounds for DQ.


Manual is manual, leave the Tv and Av modes completely out of this.


07/28/2006 05:07:34 PM · #67
Originally posted by Azrifel:

Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:

Extra Rules: To make the challenge more challenging your Tv must be = or > 1/125 and your Av must be = or < 8.0. Failure to shoot in manual mode and within the Tv and Av limits are grounds for DQ.


Manual is manual, leave the Tv and Av modes completely out of this.


See earlier post.
To simply Extra Rules

Challenge: Manual mode
Details:Show off your photographer skills by shooting in the manual mode only.

Extra Rules: To make the challenge more challenging your shutter speed must be 1/125 or faster and your aperture must be between f/1.4 and f/8.0. Failure to shoot in manual mode and within the shutter speed and aperture limits are grounds for DQ.

Message edited by author 2006-07-28 17:07:45.
07/28/2006 05:18:23 PM · #68
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:

Extra Rules: To make the challenge more challenging your shutter speed must be 1/125 or faster and your aperture must be between f/1.4 and f/8.0. Failure to shoot in manual mode and within the shutter speed and aperture limits are grounds for DQ.


Woohoo, that aught to hack off the landscape photogs :-) Sweet! Bring it on.
07/28/2006 05:27:01 PM · #69
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:

Extra Rules: To make the challenge more challenging your shutter speed must be 1/125 or faster and your aperture must be between f/1.4 and f/8.0. Failure to shoot in manual mode and within the shutter speed and aperture limits are grounds for DQ.


Woohoo, that aught to hack off the landscape photogs :-) Sweet! Bring it on.


I don't think I have ever shot a landscape stopped down more then f8... Most wideangles have everything in focus by then.
07/28/2006 05:39:05 PM · #70
So you're excluding a good chunk of the p&s folks..?
07/28/2006 05:42:47 PM · #71
What's this? I have to read my manual? Ugh!
07/28/2006 05:45:35 PM · #72
Originally posted by idnic:

What's this? I have to read my manual? Ugh!

It *is* manual mode. C'mon cindi!! Sheesh :P
07/28/2006 05:46:41 PM · #73
An RTFM challenge?
07/28/2006 05:51:51 PM · #74
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:

To simply Extra Rules

Challenge: Manual mode
Details:Show off your photographer skills by shooting in the manual mode only.

Extra Rules: To make the challenge more challenging your shutter speed must be 1/125 or faster and your aperture must be between f/1.4 and f/8.0. Failure to shoot in manual mode and within the shutter speed and aperture limits are grounds for DQ.


Just go ahead and specify 1/125 through 1/8000 as the allowable Tv. Of course you've opened a can of worms..... ISO can be auto. White balance is often auto.... I think auto contrast is possible...
Probably some I haven't thought of. I like this idea. I hope to see it soon!

Edit: OH OH OH! I forgot one. How could I since all 3 of my challenge entries have been in this mode.

MANUAL FOCUS

Message edited by author 2006-07-28 17:54:09.
07/28/2006 06:02:10 PM · #75
mhahaha, not a problem, take one picture in P mode, note setttings and switch to M.
mahahah
I admit it 80% of my shots are in P, 10/10 in the other two, 0% in M. When I want to change to make it lighter or darker I use the little wheel, I actually user the litle wheel a lot. I normally actually shoot just slightly darker compaired to where the camera thinks I want it. And of course when I am shooting with flash it takes over LOTS of my settings. I switch to Tv or Av when P doesn't give me settings in the range I want, and I still get to use the little wheel - life is good. (about 1/5 shots, I would estimate).

Message edited by author 2006-07-28 18:05:36.
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