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06/25/2010 07:37:11 AM · #251 |
I'm with you, David. Your answers have been spot on. I was just getting the impression that not everyone in this thread was picturing the same scenario in their head, so the answers have been vastly different.
Based on what I've read, a single speedlight puts out roughly 60 to 100 w/s of light. An Alien Bee B400 puts out 160 w/s of light. That's about twice as much light for less than 1/2 the price. The down side, of course, is that you loose TTL and have to plug the thing in. But if you need a light source to be brighter than the sun ... even the B400 is going to have a hard time. But you can absolutely shoot outside using only a single speedlight and get stunning results ... just don't try shooting directly at the sun, unless you want your subject to be a silhouette.
HSS built into canon speedlights allow you to get much faster shutter speeds, which in turn knocks out the ambient light (the sun). The down side is that you lose an enormous amount of flash power. If you can get the light close enough, or have multiple speedlights ... it could still work great ... but adding modifiers to your speedlight is just going to create a bigger challenge getting enough light.
Lastly, I'm not an expert on this topic, I just read about it a lot trying to buy gear for myself. My own personal experience shooting portraits outdoors is limited, but I'm trying to fix that :)
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
Originally posted by hopper:
using flash outside and over powering the sun are two different things. You can use any flash outside in the sunlight .... but now try to use a speedlight in a softbox with the sun just over your subjects shoulder (in the frame of the shot), under expose ambient by 1.5 stops and properly light the subject ... you won't be able to do it. |
Now I wondering, how close could I get... and do we quantify the output from an studio strobe (AB800) vs a little batter powered flash? |
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06/25/2010 09:53:33 AM · #252 |
As I was trying to say, I'm still lost. I've seen it done before, so I don't know why people are saying it's not possible.
How was this done?
Or This
Or This...
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06/25/2010 11:04:13 AM · #253 |
Sadly, like I've said, I'm only repeating what I've read. I don't have much experience doing this myself. The first link you posted is using a bare flash and the on camera flash with no modifiers. Adding a modifier kills a lot of light.
I posted this link earlier:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=URYVtbDUrDI
At about the 2 minute mark, he states that he needs hyper sync mode because he's including the sun in the shot ... but he's shooting at f/5, not f/22 which was the aperture used in the first link you posted.
Originally posted by kgeary:
As I was trying to say, I'm still lost. I've seen it done before, so I don't know why people are saying it's not possible.
How was this done?
Or This
Or This... |
Message edited by author 2010-06-25 11:04:34. |
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06/25/2010 11:42:22 AM · #254 |
Originally posted by kgeary:
As I was trying to say, I'm still lost. I've seen it done before, so I don't know why people are saying it's not possible.
How was this done?
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Cool shot! The photographer actually had a little more than one speed light because he included his on camera flash as well. Plus, I'm not sure if the sun was fully exposed or right on the edge of the clouds. But, I think this is right in the neighborhood of the type of shot we are discussing and it's an excellent example what can be done. Maybe the main point should be that we are on the ragged edge of what might be done with a single speedlight and just one or two stops of light can make or break a shot.
Originally posted by kgeary:
Or This
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Great shot and I'm surprised the photographer pulled it off with 1/4 power.
Another cool shoot. The sun is pretty much hidden by the model except for a bit peaking through by her arm and the sky directly behind her appears to be pretty blown out. None of this makes it wrong, it works here.
If you want some examples with an AB800, Blair Phillips is known for his light cart, which is basically an AB800 and battery mounted on a hand cart (like you would use to move a large appliance). He shoots in full sun with the light right over his subjects shoulder and manages to keep a deep blue sky.
This thread seems to have gotten a little divisive and I'm not sure why. I'm not telling anybody what can or cannot be done and I'm not telling anybody they need a specific type or brand of technology to be successful. I have shot traditional strobist style, long sync cord, with an old 550EX and working against the sun was very difficult. It can be done under some circumstances and with perfect execution, but I don't like doing it with a paying client or a model that has driven two hours to work with me because there is a high probability of faillure. The combination of hypersync through a pocketwizard and canon flashes has helped the situation considerably, so I tried to share that here. I haven't been told I was wrong this many times since my last debate with my teenage daughter... and I didn't enjoy that much either
Message edited by author 2010-06-25 11:43:41. |
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06/28/2010 07:33:56 AM · #255 |
Here's a new strobist article addressing much of what we've been discussing, if anyone would like to check it out:
//strobist.blogspot.com/2010/06/using-nd-filters-to-kill-depth-of-field.html |
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06/28/2010 06:34:20 PM · #256 |
I think the confusion here is what each was trying to accomplish and the settings. The whole point of using the HSS is to be able to drop your aperture, so you control the scene, and specifically the depth of field and impacting the ambient light. Yeah, you could shoot in broad daylight and sync at 1/250 and f/16 or whatever. We're not debating that. What  Nusbaum is getting at is using HSS, you can bump up the shutter to keep the ambient in check while still keeping aperture open and maximizing your flash power. The most recent strobist is a nice explanation of why you'd want to do this, and the other method for dealing with the same scenario.
The other reason HSS is handy is because you may NEED that shutter to freeze action, which is why I messed around with it to begin with. In situations where you need to freeze the action, you either need a ton of power to underexpose ambient or you need HSS.
FWIW- here's a shot with the sun directly behind my head just to investigate the concept of HSS, which I posted way earlier in this thread. 
Is the background as blurred as I'd like? No, it's still pretty busy, but if I had more time I definitely could have gotten it there. I chose to have a busy background just to see what I could do. My batteries were also running out because it was cold outside and I'm not sure they were fully charged, so I didn't get to mess with it as much as I wanted to. |
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06/28/2010 06:57:10 PM · #257 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
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I like it ... well done, Derek
(and well said, everything else) |
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06/28/2010 06:57:11 PM · #258 |
...double post...
Message edited by author 2010-06-29 10:13:23. |
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06/29/2010 10:08:23 AM · #259 |
| Oh, and for the record, I think that any and all lighting info is appreciated. We're not concerned with egos and posturing here, just learning. So if anybody has something to add, you're encourged to do so. I hope this atmosphere can continue. We're not trying to bully or anything, just learn and determine how many different avenues we have at our disposal to improve our lighting, so I hope nobody feels like their hands were slapped. The input from all camps is greatly appreciated. |
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06/29/2010 12:28:34 PM · #260 |
Cool posts so far & I'm definitely with you Derek about the learning side to this thread. The better we know our lighting, the more we can improve...
Anyways, here's the results of my experiment with a single 580ex2 over the weekend:
Perhaps I should say up front that I think the difference between what I was seeing & David (correct me if I'm wrong David), is that I'm probably working at a greater distance from my subjects. Most often, I'm shooting couples, which means my shooting distance is 6' (74 inches to be exact--which is my armspan (my portable ruler for getting distances right :-) )).
So, measuring 74" from the 1-stop diffusion fabric to my subject, shooting at ISO100, with one flash illuminating the diffusion (in my case it was a soft-box with 1-stop scrim on the front, but I don't think it would make much difference if it was a shoot thru umbrella instead), putting the flash into high speed sync, my results were pretty dismal:
@ ISO100, 1/400 f2.8, flash @ 1/1, I could not get a correct exposure from the flash alone (it was one stop underexposed).
For a correct exposure, it required:
@ ISO200, 1/400, f2.8, flash @ 1/1, and then my histogram reading non-reflected light on 18% grey finally hit mid-point.
I'm pretty bummed about these readings, but I suppose it's understandable given my usual working distance of 74". I suppose it's not too bad also, given that if the distance was halved to 37", as it easily could be if you were working with one subject, the diffusion fabric would produce two more stops of light, which would equate to:
ISO100, 1/800, f2.8, flash @1/1 (producing approximately the same ambient light intensity as a shady spot).
Add to that an extra flash in the soft box, & it would equate to:
ISO100, 1/1600, f2.8, flash @1/1 (that amount of light would provide some pretty good competition for full sun, especially if the subject had his/her back to the sun.
I also checked whether ETTL produces more light than manual mode, and found that it's exactly the same. ETTL failed at exactly the same camera settings as manual flash settings failed.
Personally, I can't really afford to sacrifice the amount of light that high speed sync does, so I'll be avoiding that mode entirely. I'm also firing fairly rapidly, so I also can't afford too many full discharges of my speedlite or it's going to fry. I love the reference above on the strobist link to the Singh-Ray Filters for killing the ambient light. I'm glad Kris posted it because I have been thinking of going the ND route and didn't realise the problems with the cheap filters dulling the colours.
Oh, and just to re-interate, all of the above is dealing with shooting through diffusion. If you take off the soft-box, the 580ex2 produces tons more light when it's bare... (even in HSS, @74" from the subject @ 1/1 discharge it produces enough light when set to a flash head zoom of 105mm for ISO100, f2.8, 1/4000). This easily fits within the expectations of the above flickr pics--which all seem to be shot bare bulb.
But getting back to shooting through diffusion, for interest's sake (incase what I've said above sounds totally negative), here's the flip side when avoiding high speed sync, and using two 580ex2's through diffusion fabric @ full-discharge: They equal the intensity of full direct ambient sunlight when the diffusion fabric is placed @ 57" from the subject (camera settings for the ambient light then sit @ ISO 100, 1/200, f11.0).
Taking it further again, and popping in a third 580ex2 @ full discharge in the soft box, and it's not too hard to get to ISO200 f20.0 (here's a link for an example)...
Message edited by author 2010-06-29 13:03:21. |
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06/29/2010 12:40:29 PM · #261 |
Originally posted by Medoomi:
Taking it further again, and popping in a third 580ex2 |
How many of those 580's do you have? ... mail me a few and I'll experiment all night long :)
Great post, Bert ... helpful info |
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06/29/2010 03:15:04 PM · #262 |
Originally posted by Medoomi:
Perhaps I should say up front that I think the difference between what I was seeing & David (correct me if I'm wrong David), is that I'm probably working at a greater distance from my subjects. |
One additional possibility is that the sync timing with the pocketwizard is tweaked so less light is wasted on a partially opened shutter. I think the only way to test that would be to compare a ST-E2 as the trigger vs the pocketwizard. I've also got a softbox I can use in place of the umbrella.
As a note... I'm not suggesting in any way that one of us is wrong in what we are doing. I'm curious about the differences in results as well as being curious about how to improve my lighting in difficult conditions. Thanks for posting! |
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06/29/2010 03:48:02 PM · #263 |
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
One additional possibility is that the sync timing with the pocketwizard is tweaked so less light is wasted on a partially opened shutter. |
Hmmm, yes I remember you mentioning this. I'm using Radio Poppers, so there could be a difference. Only reason I haven't thought further on this one is I thought the advertised extra power only applied to larger strobes (not speedlites...).
One way to tell would be to measure the difference you see between having high speed sync off, and then on (I'm seeing two full stops difference)
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
As a note... I'm not suggesting in any way that one of us is wrong in what we are doing. |
yes, absolutely same here. I'm always on the search for more power, so any help I can get that direction, I'll take :-) |
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06/29/2010 03:58:07 PM · #264 |
| Lighting preferences are always determined by how you learned and what you shoot. Me? 12 flashes total... 430's 550's and 580's. ST-E2 trigger. I've tried using studio stuff and could never get use to it. Also, the kinda flash durations I sometimes need are cheaper to obtain with hotshoe stuff. I learned with flashes and it's almost second nature for me now, the thought of changing terrifies me. LOL. If I shot skin tones it might be a different story. |
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06/29/2010 06:25:29 PM · #265 |
12 flashes!!!
can't argue with you, though ... your work is stunning :)
Originally posted by Davenit:
Lighting preferences are always determined by how you learned and what you shoot. Me? 12 flashes total... 430's 550's and 580's. ST-E2 trigger. I've tried using studio stuff and could never get use to it. Also, the kinda flash durations I sometimes need are cheaper to obtain with hotshoe stuff. I learned with flashes and it's almost second nature for me now, the thought of changing terrifies me. LOL. If I shot skin tones it might be a different story. |
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06/30/2010 11:15:18 AM · #266 |
| Got my extra flash in and today the rest of the stuff is out for delivery :) Can't wait to start playing some. |
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06/30/2010 04:54:11 PM · #267 |
quick test:
ISO: 100
f/stop: f/18
shutter: 1/250 sec
no flash:
580exII at full power about 5 feet away (bare flash):
I'd say the flash is actually a touch too bright, but adding an umbrella would have made it too dark. And opening up the aperture would have been out of the question at that shutter speed, everything would have been too bright. In the second image, the background is 1 stop underexposed(ish). So yes, a speedlight can "overpower" the sun, but only as a bare bulb from 5 feet away (or less).
Message edited by author 2010-06-30 17:17:38. |
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06/30/2010 05:20:48 PM · #268 |
Originally posted by hopper:
quick test:
ISO: 100
f/stop: f/18
shutter: 1/250 sec
no flash:
580exII at full power about 5 feet away (bare flash):
I'd say the flash is actually a touch too bright, but adding an umbrella would have made it too dark. And opening up the aperture would have been out of the question at that shutter speed, everything would have been too bright. In the second image, the background is 1 stop underexposed(ish). So yes, a speedlight can "overpower" the sun, but only as a bare bulb from 5 feet away (or less). |
Very cool, thanks for that. I think I would have liked to see the bg +1/3 or +2/3 though but I guess the sun would just be a large blowout then huh?
On a side note I am still awaiting my stuff, ugh. UPS is never this late. |
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06/30/2010 05:23:47 PM · #269 |
Originally posted by jminso:
I think I would have liked to see the bg +1/3 or +2/3 though but I guess the sun would just be a large blowout then huh? |
Yes, I wanted to try a few different things (umbrella), but the window of opportunity with a 2 year old is very small ... especially at dinner time :) |
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06/30/2010 05:30:48 PM · #270 |
Originally posted by hopper:
Originally posted by jminso:
I think I would have liked to see the bg +1/3 or +2/3 though but I guess the sun would just be a large blowout then huh? |
Yes, I wanted to try a few different things (umbrella), but the window of opportunity with a 2 year old is very small ... especially at dinner time :) |
lol, yeah it is probably worse then with my 4 year old. |
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06/30/2010 09:49:02 PM · #271 |
| OK got my radiopoppers in today and finally got everything setup. I love how I can adjust the power of each flash from the receiver but one thing I can't do is HSS or rear curtain sync. I am thinking I need to get an adapter to hook up the transmitter into the pc sync on the camera body to do all that. Does anyone know if that is correct? |
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06/30/2010 10:20:11 PM · #272 |
Originally posted by jminso:
...but one thing I can't do is HSS or rear curtain sync. |
AFAIK, HSS and rear-curtain are not possible with wireless flash. You can get HSS with a Canon ST-E2 (which I've done), but you lose a bit of punch with the flash output. I was quite disappointed with the fact that I couldn't get a rear-shutter synch with the 7D wireless system...
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06/30/2010 10:52:58 PM · #273 |
Originally posted by jminso:
OK got my radiopoppers in today and finally got everything setup. I love how I can adjust the power of each flash from the receiver but one thing I can't do is HSS or rear curtain sync. I am thinking I need to get an adapter to hook up the transmitter into the pc sync on the camera body to do all that. Does anyone know if that is correct? |
For HSS or rear curtain sync, you'll need the PX transmitters/receivers (the JrX won't do it). |
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06/30/2010 11:26:09 PM · #274 |
Originally posted by Medoomi:
Originally posted by jminso:
OK got my radiopoppers in today and finally got everything setup. I love how I can adjust the power of each flash from the receiver but one thing I can't do is HSS or rear curtain sync. I am thinking I need to get an adapter to hook up the transmitter into the pc sync on the camera body to do all that. Does anyone know if that is correct? |
For HSS or rear curtain sync, you'll need the PX transmitters/receivers (the JrX won't do it). |
Boo. Oh well manual it is. But with then output control for up to three groups of flashes on the transmitter it is pretty sweet. I will need to do several test fires to dial in everything but shouldn't be a problem. Of course i could always invest in a light meter.
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07/01/2010 12:06:13 AM · #275 |
Originally posted by david_c:
Originally posted by jminso:
...but one thing I can't do is HSS or rear curtain sync. |
AFAIK, HSS and rear-curtain are not possible with wireless flash. You can get HSS with a Canon ST-E2 (which I've done), but you lose a bit of punch with the flash output. I was quite disappointed with the fact that I couldn't get a rear-shutter synch with the 7D wireless system... |
I'm sure I sound like a broken record by now, but both HSS and and rear-shutter sync are available with the PocketWizard MiniTT1 and FlexTT5 trigger system. Radio Poppers may also have a solution, but I'm not as familiar with their products. |
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