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10/11/2008 08:23:27 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
 IreneM has been absent from challenges recently too. |
??????????????? Five entries each in August & September
Q
Accidental Letters II 09/21/2008 6.6434 5/113 96% 18 1270 0
Rolled up
Numbers 09/14/2008 6.4275 6/125 96% 14 1490 1
Reflections in spoons
Shallow DOF IV 09/09/2008 7.3131 1/320 100% 92 6265 41
Boss Product Shot 09/07/2008 6.8851 1/117 100% 72 5190 8
Cloves of Garlic Ovexposed 09/02/2008 6.2366 20/178 89% 19 770 1
Glass Double Double Take II 08/31/2008 7.0458 1/150 100% 54 3887 9
European Black Vulture
Free Study 2008-08 08/31/2008 6.0126 132/482 73% 12 403 1
Nuances
Abstract Black and Whitem 08/26/2008 6.6082 7/311 98% 24 1347 1
Rising from the depths
Purple III 08/19/2008 6.7793 3/223 99% 51 5336 6
4 + 2 + 4
Mathematics 08/17/2008 6.7372 2/92 99% 63 6230 11
Message edited by author 2008-10-11 08:49:52. |
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10/11/2008 08:28:47 AM · #27 |
I think that there are a lot of factors in this.
1) every photography based web site have a similar dynamic. startly there are few photographers, good comments and good photos because only the interested members submit something and write comments. the environment is new and stimulate the creativity. supporting this idea you can see some other photo web site: now on usefilm there are few interesting photos but some years agowas a good place for comments and photos. photosig now have few good photos but some years ago was probably the best. a couple of italian web site the same thing.
2) dpc isn't a full time work but is only a beautiful hobby(how many time you have for your hobby?).
3) probably the best photographers submit something only if they have a really good photo.
4) more than artistic photos often there are a lot of stock photos in the challenges, good, well done but stock photo and this photo are often in the top positions because the technical aspect is too much important for the voters respect creativity.
I don't think that a masters challenge is a good idea but something as the free study marathon where there is a photographic rating could be a stimulating thing for everyall. the problem isn't the number of submission but the photo quality and the recovery of the best photographers. |
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10/11/2008 09:00:35 AM · #28 |
All things run their course and you can't really do anything about that but I do know why a few DPC heavyweights have left...
"Also, the building on the bottom left is crooked to the edge of the frame, an easy fix beacuse to the normal person buildings don't look like this, so here it's a distraction. I'm not keen on the distribution of the clouds"
..because of comments like these. I received a string of junk like this on a series of images I'd posted around a year ago. Another DPC member/big Ribbon winner, PMed me to make sure I ignore the comments (which I did anyway) because they were very trite though I think he used the word "banal" On the flip side almost all of the comments on that series were awesome but those few will eventually get under peoples skin as we can see.
There are many photographers that know exactly what they are doing and to hear how they could have "made their image better" is honestly an insult. I find it funny when I take a picture of Times Square and I get a comment that "it's too busy". If you don't laugh you'll cry, right?
This type of stuff is rampant on the site and if you could figure out a way to train people to think more outwardly you may have a shot at solving this issue.
eta: The person who left me that particular string of silliness is in my mind not the greatest photographer (to be polite), though he fancies himself, quite the pro. What can you do?
Message edited by author 2008-10-11 09:12:45. |
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10/11/2008 09:03:41 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by Pug-H:
Look on the bright side - talentless members also leave. ;-Þ |
Oh no we don't! =]D
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10/11/2008 09:18:27 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by jrjr:
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
Aren't the best already competing against the best along with the rest of us? How do the rest of us diminish their competition?
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. When I do I want to be competing with the best of the other squirrels too. I for one would feel cheated if I were to win a challenge knowing I didn't get to compete with the best to do it.
Your premise to keep the best engaged is admirable but I don't think putting them on a pedestal is the answer. |
OK I thought some might get defensive. I was really proposing one way to keep the talented photographers who leave through boredom or whatever from leaving the site, thereby denying you the opportunity to compete against them anyway.
Does anyone have other suggestions to keep these folks engaged?
You know, Del, you have three blue ribbons and could be one of those who would benefit from this idea. |
I don't see his post as defensive. Just a logical statement of fact. The best already compete against the best here, along with the rest of us duffers at the same time.
I do think a master's challenge from time to time, is healthy. But it is all psychological and ego fluffery. Because the really talented are competing against the really talented already. The rest of us are there for filler. I wonder, if a challege were limited to say, the top 10 ribbon winners of all time... Would they tray any harder, or take a better photo, than they would if there were 200 entrants, and the other 9 of the top ten were also entered?
I could see a use for an intern or apprentice challenge. Open only to those who have never won a ribbon. This could encourage those who have never quite won a ribbon to stay and improve their abiliites, rather than give up and leave.
IMNSHO the biggest reason it seems that the quality of the images has gone down, is that the standards have risen faster than the abilities of the photographers. The voters are more sophisticated, and demand more. A real good example is my scores. My older scores are much better than they are today. But I feel my pictures today are better than my older pictures. The bar is higher. DPC has grown faster than I have. |
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10/11/2008 10:16:22 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
...(snipped)
IMNSHO the biggest reason it seems that the quality of the images has gone down, is that the standards have risen faster than the abilities of the photographers. The voters are more sophisticated, and demand more. A real good example is my scores. My older scores are much better than they are today. But I feel my pictures today are better than my older pictures. The bar is higher. DPC has grown faster than I have. |
I agree with this statement in that DPC has grown quickly, but I'm not so sure it is necessarily based upon the voters being more sophisticated and demanding more. I lack and I know it, but I want to learn photography, not just post processing. Based on THIS THREAD it seems that some of the more accomplished photographers that have left are leaving as they want more of the purist photography, not the "take it and fix it" photography that some have the mindset for. (Not everyone here falls into that category, so please don't call Art!) |
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10/11/2008 10:24:41 AM · #32 |
| Maybe there can be a challenge once a month or so for those who have won a certain amount of ribbons. There probably would be a lot of complaints (assuming this because there hasn't been a master's free study in ages), but just a thought. |
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10/11/2008 10:30:52 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by bergiekat:
Originally posted by ambaker:
...(snipped)
IMNSHO the biggest reason it seems that the quality of the images has gone down, is that the standards have risen faster than the abilities of the photographers. The voters are more sophisticated, and demand more. A real good example is my scores. My older scores are much better than they are today. But I feel my pictures today are better than my older pictures. The bar is higher. DPC has grown faster than I have. |
I agree with this statement in that DPC has grown quickly, but I'm not so sure it is necessarily based upon the voters being more sophisticated and demanding more. I lack and I know it, but I want to learn photography, not just post processing. Based on THIS THREAD it seems that some of the more accomplished photographers that have left are leaving as they want more of the purist photography, not the "take it and fix it" photography that some have the mindset for. (Not everyone here falls into that category, so please don't call Art!) |
You bring up an interesting point. While strictly speaking I am not a puristst, my processing skills just suck, I prefer better images to superior processing. If I had the time and talent to learn more about post processing, I probably would. However, I still lean towards minimal processing in my voting, because I see this as a photography challenge as opposed to a graphic arts challenge. |
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10/11/2008 10:44:13 AM · #34 |
Disclaimer: the following is my personal opinion:
I certainly agree with the sentiment that our "best and brightest" often stop participating and move on. That happens for a number of reasons, I believe. Probably the biggest one is that they find success as professionals and no longer have time for casual competition. Another reason is that as their skills progress, they move beyond creating winning entries, to creating work that pleases *them*. There is a world of photography out there beyond what pleases the voters here at DPC.
I won't pretend to have the silver bullet that will retain top talent here, but I do see it as a "challenge" for us. In general, we are going through a trying time, with membership on a downward trend. A quick search of profiles, constrained to "members" but with all other boxes blank, turns up 2334 results. In June, this number was just over 2500. Two years ago it was close to 3000. It's clear that change is necessary to attract and retain talent. |
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10/11/2008 10:44:44 AM · #35 |
I think you guys are missing the point.
They leave because they no longer need competition to validate what they do and even at a higher level it pays no dividends if you are confident in what you do. They leave because they've grown away from what the site teaches. They are exploring concepts that go beyond sharpness, composition, horizon adjustment etc.
They no longer need or desire comments that focus on the rudiments of photography as it has little pertinence to their work.
Once you know and understand the rules it's more of a challenge (and fun) to break them AND this is no place to break the rules. Especially when so many members come here to learn them.
eta: Also what kirbic said and to add when or if you turn professional it's not beneficial to have images floating around (with low scores and unflattering comments) that you are not proud of. If you've ever seen those embarrassing videos of Super Stars back when they were competing in Talent Shows...that might ring some bells.
Message edited by author 2008-10-11 11:01:43. |
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10/11/2008 10:57:34 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
...this is no place to break the rules... |
I think this is crucial. |
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10/11/2008 11:02:41 AM · #37 |
eta: Also what kirbic said is accurate and to add when or if you turn professional it's not beneficial to have images floating around (with low scores and unflattering comments attached to them) that you are not proud of. If you've ever seen those embarrassing videos of Super Stars back when they were competing in Talent Shows...that might ring some bells.
Message edited by author 2008-10-11 11:06:26. |
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10/11/2008 11:09:58 AM · #38 |
Going from Kirbics personal post, it seems that membership is on a downward trend right now. So basically to get membership up, there needs to be a change of sorts.
I have learnt so much from this site and others have too. But it does need some ummpff I think.
I think there should be a another another challenge set up, maybe once a month or every three months. Where there are basically no rules but dimensions.
Maybe going down the "You have to have a ribbon to compete" shouldn't be in the way also. There are some people that rock socks on there photo shop skills that do not have a ribbon, why limit it. If you are trying to attract new members then they will not have a ribbon.
People come here to learn but to also show off what they have. You want a different calibar of photographers, you want to attract people then, I think this is the way.
Also, I think it would help the Tutorials as well. When you enter something that does amazingly well, you want to show off your skills and have that praise from others, so people would be more inclinced to write them for us to learn.
Anyways, that is my 9 cents and change worth. |
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10/11/2008 11:11:08 AM · #39 |
| the reality is that we are in field of the hypotesis. the last try of change something was the DPL. what was the result of the dpl? more photos, more partecipants,and lower votes(there is a statistical study on the dpl challenges?). |
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10/11/2008 11:18:23 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
There are many photographers that know exactly what they are doing and to hear how they could have "made their image better" is honestly an insult. I find it funny when I take a picture of Times Square and I get a comment that "it's too busy". If you don't laugh you'll cry, right?
This type of stuff is rampant on the site and if you could figure out a way to train people to think more outwardly you may have a shot at solving this issue.
eta: The person who left me that particular string of silliness is in my mind not the greatest photographer (to be polite), though he fancies himself, quite the pro. What can you do? |
Yeah well.....
The trouble with that is that people are learning how to make comments as well as how to take photographs.
I know my photography has improved simply by looking at and voting on images in challenges, and despite what the photogrpaher's intent may have been, perhaps the commenter is just offering what would have worked to have reached him/her better.
I recently had an image critiqued in a local competition, and upon discussion of techniques, one of the judges, a highly regarded local photogrpaher and photography instructor, was denigrating a technique that he had unknowingly just judged very highly less than a half hour previously......so you never know.
When someone comments, I try to see the image from THEIR perspective, because if I'm not reaching a viewer, regardless of my intent, I want to know why. |
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10/11/2008 11:19:53 AM · #41 |
I think you should give the pros free candy. Maybe Peppermint Patties with every win.
Actually I feel that the correct assumption has already been expressed. As these photographers have become very skilled over the years they leave because they are on to other things. Joey L. for instance is shooting for big $ now. He probably has an agent and doesn't have the time to just shoot casual images that don't serve the purpose of his career goals. Also as they grow they probably find that they only like shooting images that fit their style. They probably don't feel like spending hours on a shot that they maybe don't love so that they can score well in a challenge.
I think DPC served the purpose of creating learning, but at some point they fly from the nest because they don't need to learn, they just need to work. I bet most of them still visit the site for inspiration however.
Just let some of the new photographers grow a little and they will be super awesome and teach all of the rest of us how it is done. |
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10/11/2008 11:26:40 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
eta: Also what kirbic said and to add when or if you turn professional it's not beneficial to have images floating around (with low scores and unflattering comments) that you are not proud of. If you've ever seen those embarrassing videos of Super Stars back when they were competing in Talent Shows...that might ring some bells. |
I don't necessarily think that's an issue.....
I know I have an image that helped me get juried in the area which pulled a whopping 5.5625 in a challenge.....that's kinda funny!
It helps me remain grounded to know that the people I hang out with here are going to tell me honestly what I think rather than blowing smoke.
I'd rather get a 5.7 here, and have the comments as to why, than have someone tell me how fabuilous an image is when they don't have any handle on the techniques and skills required to know what good photography is all about.
Yeah, it's great for the ego to have someone gush over one of your images, but if YOU know it's kinda mediocre 'cause its composition & lighting is a tad off, then does uit really mean anything?
Just because you made the customer happy by giving them what they wanted does not make you a great photographer......it just means you did your job.
Get a 7+ score here? Smoke it by the voters and have 37 comments?
I'm impressed!......8>) |
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10/11/2008 11:46:35 AM · #43 |
| So there ya go, OP. People leave because they get too good, all become pro photographers with a non-stop shooting schedule, and the ones who know they are super may or may not stay depending on whether or not dumb people can be prevented from leaving comments. Your new site will need to pay them for participating and only allow people who massage their egos to vote ;). |
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10/11/2008 11:52:14 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
eta: Also what kirbic said and to add when or if you turn professional it's not beneficial to have images floating around (with low scores and unflattering comments) that you are not proud of. If you've ever seen those embarrassing videos of Super Stars back when they were competing in Talent Shows...that might ring some bells. |
I don't necessarily think that's an issue.....
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I know that to be true with about five x-members who's names are usually on those lists, of people who have left. I had a lengthy conversation with one the other night about this exact topic.
People have a tendency of telling people what they want to see and sometimes entirely miss what it is they are being shown. Honestly, it's a big problem.
Speaking for myself, I am interested in connecting with people BUT not necessarily everyone. If someone doesn't connect with my stuff I wish they would just move on and not say a word. I don't care if you don't connect.
If someone doesn't connect perhaps the problem is more with them and less to do with the image. I'm just not interested in changing what I do, especially if I've done something intentionally. Should I stifle my vision because someone who bought a DSLR 8 months ago doesn't understand what I'm doing?
I don't think people require that you tell them "how fabulous" they are but if you wish for them to stay, train your population to understand and respect artistic choices. Otherwise all you have is a site that teaches people how to shoot stock. If you shoot to please the average eye that's fine for some but understand it isn't for everybody.
You mention the word "grounded" and maybe that's where we differ. Why would any artist want to be grounded? Learning how to take a decent image is great but some people want to push further.
Should Picasso have been grounded?
Message edited by author 2008-10-11 12:15:21. |
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10/11/2008 12:16:39 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
...People have a tendency of telling people what they want to see and sometimes entirely miss what it is they are being shown. Honestly, it's a big problem... |
As  posthumous quotes me on his profile page: Everyone and the kitchen sink (yes, I'm an opinionated s.o.b. here) is concerned with fixing pictures who are beyond fixing, yet little attention is given to the very models of seeing. How can we move forward, if we don't know where to go and look for the force that creates the kind of photograph that doesn't need correction?
Message edited by author 2008-10-11 12:17:26. |
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10/11/2008 12:24:48 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
...People have a tendency of telling people what they want to see and sometimes entirely miss what it is they are being shown. Honestly, it's a big problem... |
As posthumous quotes me on his profile page: Everyone and the kitchen sink (yes, I'm an opinionated s.o.b. here) is concerned with fixing pictures who are beyond fixing, yet little attention is given to the very models of seeing. How can we move forward, if we don't know where to go and look for the force that creates the kind of photograph that doesn't need correction? |
That's it on the head. "Fixing pictures who are beyond fixing" or ones that weren't broken to begin with is a silly pursuit.
If people ask for fixing that's another story but to assume that someone posts and image because they need or want it fixed is naive.
Tapping into or understanding the creative forces that motivate may a hard thing to take up with a dilettante type of force but it would be nice to address in a meaningful way every now and again.
Message edited by author 2008-10-11 12:40:14. |
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10/11/2008 12:32:30 PM · #47 |
I am one of the so-called talentless that is loosing interest in this site. I have never ribboned & I never will. I am tired of the assumption that post-processing is used to complensate for flaws in the original capture. That the only proper use of a camera is to take a perfect picture. This site is starting to feel very controlling & judgemental, not many opportunities for me to grow & learn. If I can toleration another gazillion picture-perfect landscapes, could you maybe tolerate one or two experimental shots? No? Well then, I'll be loosing interest & this site will be happy to loose a post-processing mediocre talentless point-&-shoot pretender.
Maybe the talented photographers are just bored. Or busy. A membership costs money, participating costs time. Maybe this site should pay a few talented professionals to spend some time here encouraging participation from those who want to learn from them. Give them a free membership, a free gallery, feature their names on the front page. Honestly, why would anyone who is making a living with their cameras have the time or interest to spend here? |
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10/11/2008 12:40:03 PM · #48 |
| I wonder if the OP is sorry they started this thread? :) Anyway I must admit I have not read every single post here, but my initial reaction to the idea of a "dpc advanced" site where "we" could still have the "opportunity" to view the works of the "masters" only serves to cater to the ego's of those who need them catered to. And in the process makes me feel like some type of lap dog. |
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10/11/2008 12:41:36 PM · #49 |
| DPC still has talented members. So I don't see what the big deal is. |
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10/11/2008 12:44:40 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
Maybe this site should pay a few talented professionals to spend some time here encouraging participation from those who want to learn from them. Give them a free membership, a free gallery, feature their names on the front page. |
Or a give them a free lifetime membership. |
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