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10/11/2008 12:53:55 PM · #51 |
I disagree. I don't think that some of the pros should be given memberships. That is just silly to me. I say stay the course, DPC has a good thing going and by changing direction they will cause the ship to sink. Just leave it alone. Many will come, become better and leave. New ones will replace them.
Some photographers have more midichlorians than others. Some are Yoda, others are just Leia. When the Yoda's move to Dagobah to be at piece with there photography, others will be found that will offer up something new to bring to the Jedi order.
My only complaint (and always has been) is that there is too few votes in each challenge. I would love to see the voting numbers increase because that will make the site stronger. I offer up no advice on how to accomplish this.
Message edited by author 2008-10-11 12:54:38. |
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10/11/2008 01:14:59 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
I am one of the so-called talentless that is loosing interest in this site. I have never ribboned & I never will. I am tired of the assumption that post-processing is used to complensate for flaws in the original capture. That the only proper use of a camera is to take a perfect picture. This site is starting to feel very controlling & judgemental, not many opportunities for me to grow & learn. If I can toleration another gazillion picture-perfect landscapes, could you maybe tolerate one or two experimental shots? No? Well then, I'll be loosing interest & this site will be happy to loose a post-processing mediocre talentless point-&-shoot pretender. |
There is a small but strong movement to expand the range of what constitutes an "acceptable" photo -- see the Posthumous Ribbons and Blur threads for example.
I've worked hard for six years to divorce my photos from DPC scores -- I enter what I want and expect nothing ... if I get a couple of comments showing that the photo "reached" someone I am satisfied.
With any voting process, the larger the pool of voters the more the results will tend toward the center, with the "least-objectionable" photos ending up on top. So, as long as we have open voting, I think we're stuck with a certain type of winner. Yet, I think this is somewhat an overblown myth -- many worthwhile and deserving images ribbon.
I think in any group or club, people move on -- these days people move on from their jobs, homes, families. Mobility is now the norm, rather than the exception it was 40 years ago. Actually, I'm more surprised at the number of people who've stayed around here for years.
Perhaps as a way of giving some recognition to more members, in addition to the challenge winners, there could be a row of photos randomly drawn from a pool of non-ribboning member entries from that week's challenges, especially if they could be refreshed with each page load. |
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10/11/2008 01:37:38 PM · #53 |
Ok, so the problem seems to be that after awhile people get bored, get busy, get frustrated, get egos, get whatever, and move on.
I do think that the calls for larger image sizes, and more freedom in processing, have some merit. I don't think it is necessary to do it in every challenge. If we allowed a member only challenge that was a free study, and had fairly wide open post processing rules, and had say... a 2200 pixel limit with a 1.5 meg size, every couple of months, or even every quarter, with a 90 submission time. Would that help interest those who feel constrained by a 700 pixel limit, and a narrow rule set? Would this also help cure the boredom factor?
I have no solution for too busy.
For the frustrated people... Perhaps my previous suggestion of an occasional challenge for those who have never won a ribbon, might help with maintaing interest.
For the people with egos, if you do not care if people do not connect with an image, I'm not sure why you are posting them someplace where voting and commenting are encouraged. Further, if you do not care if someone does not connect with your image, I'm not sure if there is any real reason to show it to anyone but yourself. Stick it on your personal website. Or, grow a thicker skin....
Even the least of us get "useless" comments. =\ or "boring" tells me nothing, other than the person who left the comment may be looking for one of those 100% comment ribbons. Even when I strongly disagree, I appreciate the fact that a person who leaves me a detailed comment is trying to help.
Last but not least, I do not think that the measure of the site health is in the number of paying members. (Financial health is another issue.) I would look at how many participants there are in the open challenges. If they have dropped off, then it is surer sign of poor site health. The economy can also be taking a toll. DPC membership is a luxury. Nobody really needs one.
To get more people to convert from registered to membership, the answer is simple. Provide more with a membership. Which is not the same thing as cutting back on the freebies. Freebies get people in the door. So, whether it is larger image sizes in members only challenges, or different styles and wider rule variations in member challenges, or other perks (perhaps negotiate a discount with some vendors for site members who order from site links), or whatever... Truth be told, that I dropped my membership for almost two years. Job loss and moving halfway across country had something to do with that. I rejoined, not because I needed a membership, not because I wanted to enter member only challenges (I may have entered one of those at most since I came back), but to support the site, to give back to what I enjoy. Not everyone feels the same way, and I make no judgement on that. The point is, I paid out of a desire to help keep something I enjoy, not because I felt that it was worth the money over the free registration.
-alex
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10/11/2008 02:04:18 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
Why do they leave? - boredom? - maybe .. but is it boredom of [i]photography.....? |
[/i]
My primary guess for right now is the massive financial mess taking place worldwide distracting people from what is largely a hobby. And sometimes the challenges just aren't interesting enough to enter, so yes, I'd say that boredom is a factor.
I just know that I miss the immensely talented  silverfoxx is gone, and IreneM has been absent from challenges recently too. [/quote]
I haven't left, I've been on holiday. I love this site, it's taught me such a lot and, photographically speaking, joining this site was the best thing I've ever done.
As for losing talented members. People will come and go and others will take their place. To me, that's no problem, that's the way of the world. The site existed before we came and will exist after we've left... but I won't be leaving for a while ;-) |
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10/11/2008 02:07:53 PM · #55 |
| Irene, you get my personal ribbon for spelling "losing" with only one "o". :-) And enter a holiday snapshot, will ya? A true snapshot. One that will garner comments like "This is a snapshot!" |
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10/11/2008 02:34:50 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Irene, you get my personal ribbon for spelling "losing" with only one "o". :-) And enter a holiday snapshot, will ya? A true snapshot. One that will garner comments like "This is a snapshot!" |
I did get a real holiday snapshot of a cow sticking its tongue out ;-) One thing's for sure, I'm definitely not the outdoor photographer (yet)... Our hotel was situated in THE most glorious scenery. Mountains... absolutely breathtaking. One morning at breakfast, I was sitting with my back to the window and, while my husband was gazing with rapture at the scenery, I was examining my eggcup which had the most fascinatingly interesting lines...;-) Oh, well.. |
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10/11/2008 02:37:53 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by IreneM:
Mountains... absolutely breathtaking. One morning at breakfast, I was sitting with my back to the window and, while my husband was gazing with rapture at the scenery, I was examining my eggcup which had the most fascinatingly interesting lines...;-) Oh, well.. |
LOL!!! (Seriously, that made me laugh out loud!) So does your husband have a camera? Maybe you can post his shots of the breathtaking scenery. Meanwhile, we'll be on the lookout for an upside down eggcup.... :-) |
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10/11/2008 02:58:44 PM · #58 |
A sorry state when we have to celebrate correct spelling! Of course there is the possibility that we are indeed "loosing" talented photographers upon the wide wider world.
pixelpig, please don't leave just when I am beginning to appreciate the energy and intensity of your original photos, and to realize that these are the kinds of photos that liberate me from my doomed and even more boring attempts at landscapes. |
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10/11/2008 02:59:05 PM · #59 |
interesting thread.
i almost left, (not that I consider myself one of DPC's best, but i think i do alright) and thought about it and said, why? because i haven't received the praise some others have?
i have received helpful comments and seen the portfolios of very inspirational photogs i would normally not have seen or noticed if I wasn't a member... so... i'd be hurting myself if i didn't renew.
incidentally, before i noticed this thread, i did PM one of the photogs i believe was a bright star here. that would be shermy. and shannonlee.
and many of the faves in my portfolio are no longer viewable because the user has 'moved on'...
i don't buy one user's argument that financial crisis is leading to lost members. the membership is not expensive. those who are broken by $30 annually probably don't have a computer, let alone an internet connection.
my guess is they're bored and left.
kind of like outgrowing a relationship. |
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10/11/2008 04:25:02 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by saintaugust:
...i almost left, (not that I consider myself one of DPC's best, but i think i do alright) and thought about it and said, why? because i haven't received the praise some others have? ... i have received helpful comments and seen the portfolios of very inspirational photogs i would normally not have seen or noticed if I wasn't a member... so... i'd be hurting myself if i didn't renew...
...those who are broken by $30 annually probably don't have a computer, let alone an internet connection... ..my guess is they're bored and left... ..kind of like outgrowing a relationship. |
(pardon the snips)
right - and when people get bored in a relationship, or outgrow it - it is because that 'relationship' didn't retain the 'thrill', didn't grow in tandem... and I agree on the money aspect
DPC is a little 'escape' for many - but why come to a place to 'escape', if it is full of either the things you are escaping from in life or contains too many elements you dislike
such as comments (and yes  Pawdrix, you could have been describing me, but the last one I could see I commented on was Chili:
(plus I do not think I am 'quite the pro')
some like comments, some don't - some like feedback, some don't, some like giving it, some don't - some are quite content with their image, *some only want feedback on the technicals, some only on 'reaction', some none at all... when we have that button that says so, without sounding too conceited, it will be much more efficient
When I first came here, I also studied the community - just like life there were a few elements I didn't lean towards, but they were the minority - the dynamics have changed now, which personally I don't like - but one good thing about DPC, it is sectioned off enough (and I'm not talking about the off-shoot things) that if you only want to view images, it is easy to do only that
So long as it is an escape that I enjoy coming to (and the majority don't have a problem with my presence), I'll keep coming (when I feel so inclined and have the time)
edit:to clarify - oops - I am not a 'talented member' - and I do notice when some of the talented ones leave/stop participating and I miss the opportunity to see their work at 'DPCescape'
edit2:* to clarify even further
..........
Message edited by author 2008-10-11 18:21:49. |
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10/11/2008 04:36:05 PM · #61 |
| oh and one more thing - I think not as many leave as is thought - they just change their usernames! |
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10/11/2008 06:51:35 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by IreneM:
Originally posted by snaffles:
Why do they leave? - boredom? - maybe .. but is it boredom of [i]photography.....? |
[/i]
My primary guess for right now is the massive financial mess taking place worldwide distracting people from what is largely a hobby. And sometimes the challenges just aren't interesting enough to enter, so yes, I'd say that boredom is a factor.
I just know that I miss the immensely talented silverfoxx is gone, and IreneM has been absent from challenges recently too. |
I haven't left, I've been on holiday. I love this site, it's taught me such a lot and, photographically speaking, joining this site was the best thing I've ever done.
As for losing talented members. People will come and go and others will take their place. To me, that's no problem, that's the way of the world. The site existed before we came and will exist after we've left... but I won't be leaving for a while ;-) [/quote]
My apologies, Irene, I wasn't trying to insuinuate you'd left, please don't! :-) (And there's another answer, that sometimes photogs go on holidays, lol!) But it's kinda weird to not see your name on the homepage at least once a week. That's all I was trying to convey. As for Svetlana, don't know where she's gone, but I miss her shots. |
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10/11/2008 07:17:03 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
eta: Also what kirbic said and to add when or if you turn professional it's not beneficial to have images floating around (with low scores and unflattering comments) that you are not proud of. If you've ever seen those embarrassing videos of Super Stars back when they were competing in Talent Shows...that might ring some bells. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I don't necessarily think that's an issue..... |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I know that to be true with about five x-members who's names are usually on those lists, of people who have left. I had a lengthy conversation with one the other night about this exact topic.
People have a tendency of telling people what they want to see and sometimes entirely miss what it is they are being shown. Honestly, it's a big problem. |
I disagree......first, you're pretty much saying that people don't know what they're looking at, correct?
And that if they do, they're off base with their comments?
If that's the case, then what would be the point of submitting at all?
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Speaking for myself, I am interested in connecting with people BUT not necessarily everyone. If someone doesn't connect with my stuff I wish they would just move on and not say a word. I don't care if you don't connect. |
Then wouldn't it stand to reason that you're going to get varying comments?
Why is it okay to have a comment from someone who "Gets it", but not from someone else who doesn't?
Originally posted by pawdrix:
If someone doesn't connect perhaps the problem is more with them and less to do with the image. I'm just not interested in changing what I do, especially if I've done something intentionally. Should I stifle my vision because someone who bought a DSLR 8 months ago doesn't understand what I'm doing? |
I completely disagree......if you offer up an image for viewing, the burden of conveying your point rests entirely on you.
If you don't feel that way, then again, why submit?
Are you suggesting some sort of vetting process to be allowed to vote and comment?
I don't get a lot of things that are "Artistic" and "True" to photography principles.
But I know what I like, and I vote accordingly.
I have a certain technique that I use here that I don't think I would vote more than high 4s, low 5s if I saw the stuff cold......yet it consistently gets high 5s and low- to mid-6s.
Does that mean I don't know what I'm looking at with my own work????
Personally, I find oit hilarious that the work of mine that *I* like the best and that *I* know is my "Good" stuff doesn't do as well as this other work that the voters like......and the comments that I've gotten seem to almost support the idea that I have something special. I see to a point what they mean, but I don't especially like it myself.
So NOW what do I do.....shoot for me, or score well and get comments that seem to indicate that my work reaches people?
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I don't think people require that you tell them "how fabulous" they are but if you wish for them to stay, train your population to understand and respect artistic choices. Otherwise all you have is a site that teaches people how to shoot stock. If you shoot to please the average eye that's fine for some but understand it isn't for everybody.
You mention the word "grounded" and maybe that's where we differ. Why would any artist want to be grounded? Learning how to take a decent image is great but some people want to push further.
Should Picasso have been grounded? |
"Train your population".....
Wow!!!! You know that was out loud, right????......8>)
When I mention grounded, I was referring to the fact that I'll take some constructive, accurate OPINION of an image by a fellow photographer anytime over the effusive praise of someone who just looks at the "Pretty Pitchers".
Oh, and I'm certainly no Picasso......but *I* know that, and am happy and comfortable with my work.
Do I strive to improve? Yes.
Will I ever be Picasso with a camera.....nope, yet I'm okay with that.
And I want to know whether or not my image reaches you or not, and if you have a suggestion, let's hear it.
I may not agree, but regardless of whether you bought your camera yesterday, or when Nixon was in the White House, you know what you like and what you want.
And that person next to you.....I want THEIR views, too.
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10/11/2008 07:43:46 PM · #64 |
did you just compare the dpc membership to star wars characters?
lol
Originally posted by Jason_Cross:
I disagree. I don't think that some of the pros should be given memberships. That is just silly to me. I say stay the course, DPC has a good thing going and by changing direction they will cause the ship to sink. Just leave it alone. Many will come, become better and leave. New ones will replace them.
Some photographers have more midichlorians than others. Some are Yoda, others are just Leia. When the Yoda's move to Dagobah to be at piece with there photography, others will be found that will offer up something new to bring to the Jedi order.
My only complaint (and always has been) is that there is too few votes in each challenge. I would love to see the voting numbers increase because that will make the site stronger. I offer up no advice on how to accomplish this. |
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10/11/2008 07:50:32 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by saintaugust:
did you just compare the dpc membership to star wars characters?
lol
Originally posted by Jason_Cross:
I disagree. I don't think that some of the pros should be given memberships. That is just silly to me. I say stay the course, DPC has a good thing going and by changing direction they will cause the ship to sink. Just leave it alone. Many will come, become better and leave. New ones will replace them.
Some photographers have more midichlorians than others. Some are Yoda, others are just Leia. When the Yoda's move to Dagobah to be at piece with there photography, others will be found that will offer up something new to bring to the Jedi order.
My only complaint (and always has been) is that there is too few votes in each challenge. I would love to see the voting numbers increase because that will make the site stronger. I offer up no advice on how to accomplish this. |
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Personally, I think it's the deepest, most meaningful analogy I've ever read. |
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10/11/2008 07:53:27 PM · #66 |
| Oh ya. And unfortunately there is nothing that you can do about your midichlorian count. You either have them or you don't. You can still be trained in the ways of the Jedi, but your high kicks will only sting, while a member with high midichlorians will knock the head off the sucka. |
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10/11/2008 07:54:56 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Jason_Cross:
Oh ya. And unfortunately there is nothing that you can do about your midichlorian count. You either have them or you don't. You can still be trained in the ways of the Jedi, but your high kicks will only sting, while a member with high midichlorians will knock the head off the sucka. |
now that was deep. :-)
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10/11/2008 07:57:01 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by saintaugust:
Originally posted by Jason_Cross:
Oh ya. And unfortunately there is nothing that you can do about your midichlorian count. You either have them or you don't. You can still be trained in the ways of the Jedi, but your high kicks will only sting, while a member with high midichlorians will knock the head off the sucka. |
now that was deep. :-) |
*snicker* |
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10/11/2008 09:00:37 PM · #69 |
All you really need to know comes from Star Wars. We are all wanna be Jedi in a way. That is why they call it the "site council", just a Jedi term. They sit in a circle with their legs crossed trying to figure out what is best for us schmucks in the republic.
Higher scores we must seek if the council is to prevail hmmm.? |
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10/11/2008 09:00:55 PM · #70 |
There are probably as many reasons why people leave as there are people leaving. No doubt, the reasons already mentioned have influenced some. I’m sure there are many other reasons.
One question we might ask is what incentives are there to stay? Winning yet another virtual ribbon? Getting a few more ‘favorite photographer’s or ‘favorite photo’s? That’s enough for some people. Obviously, it’s not enough for others. What other incentives are there?
How about getting your name on the ‘Top Favorite Photographers’ list? Yeah, like that’s going to happen. That list has hardly changed at all in the several years that I’ve been here. Moreover, many of the people on the list no longer even participate on the site. People that crave recognition would love to see their name on the list. However, if the list never changes, then it’s not much of an incentive to stick around, is it? Besides, it’s not a list of the best photographers on the site. It’s a list of the people with the largest number of ‘favorite photographer’ selections. In other words, it’s just a “cool kids” list (probably heavily affected by ghost accounts.) I think a better incentive would be a list of top photographers. That way anyone that wanted to get on the list would have a chance, simply be being a good photographer. Better yet, we could have multiple lists. We could have one for all-time top photographer, one for top photographer of the year, top photographer of the month, etc...
What about the rest of the site? Is it constantly evolving and improving, or is it stagnating? People often get bored with things that never change. If there’s a feature you don’t like or want added, what are the chances that it will be fixed or changed in the near future? The place has changed over the years I’ve been here, but the rate of change is very slow compared to most other web sites.
Anyway, these are some of the things I thought of when I read this thread.
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10/11/2008 09:10:43 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Mick:
How about getting your name on the ‘Top Favorite Photographers’ list? Yeah, like that’s going to happen. |
Not to mention the fact that the more people that have you faved, the more people are going to add you, simply because you have a lot. It's pack mentality. It'll always exist.
I don't know about having more lists of the like, I'd be more apt to put support behind eliminating ALL lists that divide the populace.
I'm such a socialist. lol. |
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10/11/2008 09:18:39 PM · #72 |
What an interesting thread.
One theory I have is that once photographers in this new technological millenium advance their photography and digital art talents, they get bored with the editing restrictions that can limit a very artistic photograher from turning a good photo into a fine art masterpiece.
I would love to see a forum where people could just submit their photos for contests, and who cares how they got their shot. The voters will usually punish photographers that go way over the top anyway. But it would open up a venue for those fabulous artistic photographers to be totally free in creating art that undoubted goes beyond the rules, and not have to worry about it.
Course, that's just a theory. I may be way off base. |
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10/11/2008 09:30:05 PM · #73 |
| How about adding an Expert Editing free study and letting people choose between one or the other to enter each month. That would slim down the entries to a more reasonable number, and you would have one challenge per month go go nuts in if you wanted to. |
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10/11/2008 09:34:02 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by SandyP:
I would love to see a forum where people could just submit their photos for contests, and who cares how they got their shot. The voters will usually punish photographers that go way over the top anyway. But it would open up a venue for those fabulous artistic photographers to be totally free in creating art that undoubted goes beyond the rules, and not have to worry about it. |
Once a month, we don' need no steenken' rules!
Run what ya brung, bare-knuckles give it all ya got, and let's see who's standing when the dust settles.
No hassle whatsoever for SC, no entries to validate outside of date & size restrictions.
Somebody'll bitch about the size thing, but there ARE bandwidth considerations.
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10/11/2008 09:37:51 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by Mick:
There are probably as many reasons why people leave as there are people leaving. No doubt, the reasons already mentioned have influenced some. I’m sure there are many other reasons.
One question we might ask is what incentives are there to stay? |
Micks got it right. Let's concentrate on positive things. What changes can be made to make the site more dynamic to maintain everyone's interest?
I also agree with the comment that the site is slow to react and grow. Change is a good thing. Any suggestions for change? (Please be positive. All nay-sayers that want to discourage the rest of us, please resist your impulse to kill the thread). |
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