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06/10/2002 05:00:38 PM · #26 |
To me, 'on the road' means that the camera must be touching the road when the shutter is released. :)
Not really... I don't have a SET and FIRM translation of 'on the road'. I know that most of the photos I see here do give me some sense of being 'on the road'. If I had to define my interpretation, I would say that 'on the road' would be related to travel and/or motion, as well as objects on the road, or the road itself... make sense? That's a fairly broad definition I think.
There are some photos here that don't give me this impression... there are some photos here that have broadened my interpretation of the challenge as well and I have accepted those interpretations. There are some photos here that give me NO support of any 'on the road' concept that I could imagine. I won't name any but my comments are in place on most of the photos that I questioned...
If i submitted a photograph of a banana on my kitchen table and titled it "i found this banana while i was driving in my car down the road on my way home", how would you score me? Even if the photograph was perfect in every technical aspect?
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06/10/2002 05:01:33 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by Zeissman:
But you know, when I look at my own work. I have a hard time bringing anyone else down. I am in the 4''s again, and not complaining.
Do you want to score higher?
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06/10/2002 05:04:19 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by KDJohnson:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[i]Shey,
I agree with what you say here... which photo was yours last week?
I think he meant in this week's challenge since there is no photo title underneath his name, John.[/i]
Sorry, It's my mistake. I was talking about the 'On The Road' challange which we are voting on now, so now having gotten down from my soapbox, I'd like to hide under a rock until next week, maybe take a picture of the rock's shadow.
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06/10/2002 05:05:15 PM · #29 |
Zen and the art of photography.... don't photograph the shadow... BE the shadow :)
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06/10/2002 05:20:37 PM · #30 |
I had a really busy day at that place that pays me, so I have not had a chance to participate in any of the discussions here today. So it's time to drop my sack of quarters and respond as well as i can to alot of different things I've read in this thread :).
People decry cliches, at least in the forums, but it's the so-called cliche shots that almost always get the highest scores from the voting masses, while many of the most creative images founder. (Although thankfully, for b&w, 3 of the best, imo, images did win. although there were lots of great great pics that got shorted, too).
We can do all we can to change that: submit creatively, irregardless. vote for the creative images, irregardless. and be outspoken about favoring and fostering creativity.
we can exhort the site admins to put up guidance so that everyone is more on the same page in terms of 'what to look for in a photo'.. Stuff like 'favor creativity' 'dont reward cliches', etc.
but until we somehow affect all the voters and get the word out, it's going to be what it is. and therein lies the crux. you must choose your purpose for submitting: one either submits in hopes of getting a good score. to do this, you try to assess what is a 'winning' pic and cater to that, or one submits purely in hope of getting a critique and an idea of how the general populace (as filtered through this website) views their photo.
just saying 'i took it for me and that's all that matters' doesnt fly here, because otherwise you wouldn't be submitting it to a public contest .. I havent heard a single person who won be upset about it : )... |
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06/10/2002 05:26:42 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
just saying 'i took it for me and that's all that matters' doesnt fly here, because otherwise you wouldn't be submitting it to a public contest .. I havent heard a single person who won be upset about it : )...
It flies just fine for me... I have not submitted a photo to this site yet that I wasn't completely happy with. Some do better than others and one got a ribbon. My lowest scoring photo was one of my favorite posts to this site... granted, it had a problem and I was reminded about it quite frequently in the comments... That was the ONLY photo I have submitted here that I feel the criticism I got was useful. The critique item was too easy to miss... :)
I *do* strive to achieve a good score. You are right about that. But I don't submit something that I don't like to the site.
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06/10/2002 05:29:45 PM · #32 |
Just gone thru' the present challenge submissions - lots of good and original entries - some very good and very few that stuggle to meet the challenge without the help of the title.
I have found none that blatantly are off-topic which I would score down - am I missing something here?
Vin
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06/10/2002 05:31:34 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
But I don''t submit something that I don''t like to the site.
I don''t think anyone would submit something they ''didn''t like.'' i think some people seeking critique might like their photo but not be sure if others would, so they would seek to find out.
what I am talking about is the flipside of that: when people say ''i submitted to a photo contest but i dont care about the contest or the critique'', I think that they are not telling the truth. no one goes out of their way to submit to a public forum unless you want to know what other people are thinking.
whether or not it agrees with what you thought about your own pic, and how that makes you feel is another matter altogether ... : )
* This message has been edited by the author on 6/10/2002 6:01:39 PM. |
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06/10/2002 05:57:12 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
But I don''t submit something that I don''t like to the site.
I've submitted shots I'm not *completely* happy with -- because of time limitations primarily. I try and capture an image which conveys the concept had in mind, and I'm willing to submit it even if it's not perfect. For almost every one of my submissions, I've received a batch of comments (about half) which are not only consistent with each other, but with the comments I made myself when submitting it. Most of these are relatively technical in nature, and I'm actually rather pleased with that -- people seem to "like" the photo, just not the care and craftsmanship with which I executed it. THOSE are things which can be improved relatively easily, with TIME... |
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06/10/2002 06:23:46 PM · #35 |
i would love to win this competition, but I do not think I currently posess the equipment (maybe), time, or the imagintion to recieve a high score on a regular basis. I have always been more of a photographer of opportunity, and I am not really good at imagining the shot first and then doing it. I am too lazy. I have a shot of a girl dancing around a fire that I have wanted to do for 10 years, I even had the girl. I just could not find a place to do the bon fire.
The shot I submitted this time was actually just a set up shot, I intended to get out of my driveway, and do it right, but with (insert lame excuse here) I never did it. I did figure out some ways to improve the shot technically if I want to do it in the future.
b]Originally posted by jmsetzler:[/b]
Originally posted by Zeissman:
[i]But you know, when I look at my own work. I have a hard time bringing anyone else down. I am in the 4''s again, and not complaining.
Do you want to score higher?
[/i]
* This message has been edited by the author on 6/10/2002 10:34:06 PM.
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06/10/2002 10:35:13 PM · #36 |
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06/10/2002 11:29:53 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
People decry cliches, at least in the forums, but it's the so-called cliche shots that almost always get the highest scores from the voting masses, while many of the most creative images founder. (Although thankfully, for b&w, 3 of the best, imo, images did win. although there were lots of great great pics that got shorted, too).
We can do all we can to change that: submit creatively, irregardless. vote for the creative images, irregardless. and be outspoken about favoring and fostering creativity.
we can exhort the site admins to put up guidance so that everyone is more on the same page in terms of 'what to look for in a photo'.. Stuff like 'favor creativity' 'dont reward cliches', etc.
but until we somehow affect all the voters and get the word out, it's going to be what it is. and therein lies the crux. you must choose your purpose for submitting: one either submits in hopes of getting a good score. to do this, you try to assess what is a 'winning' pic and cater to that, or one submits purely in hope of getting a critique and an idea of how the general populace (as filtered through this website) views their photo.
just saying 'i took it for me and that's all that matters' doesnt fly here, because otherwise you wouldn't be submitting it to a public contest .. I havent heard a single person who won be upset about it : )...
It's kinna like putting your work up for sale. No one makes a rule that you have to buy it if it meets such and such criteria, you just set it out there and see what happens. I'm not sure it's too good an idea to structure the voting too much. Either A) you'll turn people off and they won't vote, or more probably B) they'll vote the same way anyway and just use some high sounding reasons to justify their vote. I'm getting some frustrating comments on my entry, but what should I do when I shoot for this week? Try to chase the latest view from someone I'm not sure I respect? Guess I'll follow my own muse and take my lumps again. Zen and the art of Phrenology:) Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to download todays tries and see if there's anything outrageous enough to ruin someone's digestion:)
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06/11/2002 12:06:18 AM · #38 |
The word is regardless
Anyway, I was saying elsewhere, part of being an artist is knowing your audience. You can make the choice to cater to that audience. Cater to it, but do it with your own style, or say "the hell with it" do what you want, and hope they come around to your way. To some, a picture of a well done picture of a dog is cliche, to others, the "break all the rules" "edgy" stuff is cliche.
We may all be able to look at some of the "cliche" pictures and learn something that may be useful later.
there is very little that has not been done, and I think there is a difference between cliche, and badly executed work with a poor theme (rear view mirrors!)
I wish "Hair Cut" would have done better, I wish I had done better, but the people have spoken!
b]Originally posted by sheyingshi88:[/b]
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
[i]
People decry cliches, at least in the forums, but it's the so-called cliche shots that almost always get the highest scores from the voting masses, while many of the most creative images founder. (Although thankfully, for b&w, 3 of the best, imo, images did win. although there were lots of great great pics that got shorted, too).
We can do all we can to change that: submit creatively, irregardless. vote for the creative images, irregardless. and be outspoken about favoring and fostering creativity.
we can exhort the site admins to put up guidance so that everyone is more on the same page in terms of 'what to look for in a photo'.. Stuff like 'favor creativity' 'dont reward cliches', etc.
but until we somehow affect all the voters and get the word out, it's going to be what it is. and therein lies the crux. you must choose your purpose for submitting: one either submits in hopes of getting a good score. to do this, you try to assess what is a 'winning' pic and cater to that, or one submits purely in hope of getting a critique and an idea of how the general populace (as filtered through this website) views their photo.
just saying 'i took it for me and that's all that matters' doesnt fly here, because otherwise you wouldn't be submitting it to a public contest .. I havent heard a single person who won be upset about it : )...
It's kinna like putting your work up for sale. No one makes a rule that you have to buy it if it meets such and such criteria, you just set it out there and see what happens. I'm not sure it's too good an idea to structure the voting too much. Either A) you'll turn people off and they won't vote, or more probably B) they'll vote the same way anyway and just use some high sounding reasons to justify their vote. I'm getting some frustrating comments on my entry, but what should I do when I shoot for this week? Try to chase the latest view from someone I'm not sure I respect? Guess I'll follow my own muse and take my lumps again. Zen and the art of Phrenology:) Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to download todays tries and see if there's anything outrageous enough to ruin someone's digestion:)
[/i]
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06/11/2002 08:13:27 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by Zeissman:
The word is regardless
We may all be able to look at some of the "cliche" pictures and learn something that may be useful later.
there is very little that has not been done, and I think there is a difference between cliche, and badly executed work with a poor theme (rear view mirrors!)
Exactly! Cliche gets used like a dirty word around here, but mainly it is miss-applied. Cliche shots can be excellent photographs. The
reason they are considered cliche's is because they are common subjects.
It doesn't mean you can't do them well and come up with an excellent
entry.
The problem is all the snapshots of the same stuff, done poorly,
technically badly executed and so on. (cats, dogs, children, quickly
snapped and entered) Other entries here show excellent, carefully
considered shots of pets and children - and entirely different thing.
The whole 'break the rules' thing is fine too, but most of the
guidelines are based on a lot of experience on what works in general.
It would be good if the people that claim to not follow rules, or
not be constrained at understood enough about what they are trying to
break and why, rather than just taking a picture of any old crap (sometimes literally) and thinking they are doing something special
because they 'aren't being constrained by rules'
Breaking the rules is fine but at least have a clue why you are doing it
other than some attempt to 'rebel against the established practice' then
you might do something interesting.
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06/11/2002 08:46:42 AM · #40 |
So, do I have to update my tagline: A good cliche shot is an uncommonly good image of common subjects. ;-)
Originally posted by GordonMcGregor:
Exactly! Cliche gets used like a dirty word around here, but mainly it is miss-applied. Cliche shots can be excellent photographs. The
reason they are considered cliche's is because they are common subjects.
It doesn't mean you can't do them well and come up with an excellent
entry.
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06/11/2002 09:25:05 AM · #41 |
Well, here goes a comment sure to win me friends and influence people.
Without going into every life altering crap-o-la I have stumbled through in my life through choice or chance, without holding up any dumb ole pieces of paper from a brick and mortar institution of higher confusion to substantiate my claims of intelligence let me say I trust myself implicitely when it comes to being able to meet the challenge AND seeing the challenge met.
It sounds...arrogant..I know...but no more arrogant than when folks say "I don't get it therefore I am scoring you low".
Because, in a way, they are saying they have seen enough in THEIR lives to trust their opinion and they don't see the connection. Which is fair..how can you know what you don't know :-) It's pretzel logic.
As a matter of fact, I don't care how tenous the relationship is to the challenge. My opinion is that the challenge is there for a variety of reasons. To challenge the photographer to look at things from a different perspective, to challenge the spectator to do the same. To bring our photographs together at a common crossroads.
If an artist can USE the challenge topic to encourage the spectator to see something simply because of the name of the challenge opens their eyes to the possibility...BINGO!!
Imagine an art gallery. Most galleries have titles to their exhibitions. Stuff like "18th centurey vision of the future" or whatever. Think of it like that instead of some 4th grade show and tell topic :-)
Flame suit on, shades in positon and iced tea ready :-)
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06/11/2002 09:29:14 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by hokie:
Well, here goes a comment sure to win me friends and influence people.
As a matter of fact, I don''t care how tenous the relationship is to the challenge. My opinion is that the challenge is there for a variety of reasons. To challenge the photographer to look at things from a different perspective, to challenge the spectator to do the same. To bring our photographs together at a common crossroads.
If an artist can USE the challenge topic to encourage the spectator to see something simply because of the name of the challenge opens their eyes to the possibility...BINGO!!
BINGO!!!! What Hokie said.....
I am getting alot of comments that my photo this week does not meet the challenge, but its perfectly logical to me. I see the connection, but maybe because of my life experiences or maybe because I am just the village idiot. Who knows.
* This message has been edited by the author on 6/11/2002 9:29:11 AM.
* This message has been edited by the author on 6/11/2002 9:30:38 AM. |
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06/11/2002 09:56:42 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by hokie:
It sounds...arrogant..I know...but no more arrogant than when folks say "I don't get it therefore I am scoring you low".
I don't think this is arrogant... If the viewer can't relate the photo to the challenge topic, a low score will follow... part of the 'challenge' is to create a photo that meets the challenge topic, right?
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06/11/2002 10:19:07 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by hokie:
[i]
It sounds...arrogant..I know...but no more arrogant than when folks say "I don't get it therefore I am scoring you low".
I don't think this is arrogant... If the viewer can't relate the photo to the challenge topic, a low score will follow... part of the 'challenge' is to create a photo that meets the challenge topic, right?
[/i]
Lots of discussion here, but I only see one photograph this week that I can't figure out the relationship to the topic. Granted some of them are more obvious to me.
I didn't submit this week because: all the photographs I took sucked, because I didn't commit enough time (Because, well heck the Wings are working on bringing home the Stanley cup),and partially because of the comments I recieved on my submission last week.
Which leads me back to comments... Come on leaving a one word comment of UGLY? What was the point of that? I know it wasn't a wonderful photo, however to me the subject holds special importance and frankly is subtantially more valuable than my digital cameral.
Dont get me wrong, most of the few comments I received held value, but I am really not sure what the point of that one was.
As I am reading the comments made on others photograph's I again wonder, what is the point? Attack the composition, the lighting, the focus, but the subject??? What is the point?
I am admittedly suffering from PMS today. Forgive me for whinning SO loudly.
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06/11/2002 10:34:51 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by hokie:
[i]
It sounds...arrogant..I know...but no more arrogant than when folks say "I don't get it therefore I am scoring you low".
I don't think this is arrogant... If the viewer can't relate the photo to the challenge topic, a low score will follow... part of the 'challenge' is to create a photo that meets the challenge topic, right?
[/i]
Of course it is JM. Arrogance is natural. The very fact we feel we are in a position to judge art is a definition of arrogance.
Definition: arrogance - "a feeling or an impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner OR presumptuous claims". Presumption that you know enough to say if a photo meets an art challenge that at the very beginning demands you to be creative in the very wording of the directions.
Most will balk at other people calling them arrogant because most folks take that as a slap, a very direct insult.
But it's not. It's only an insult when your natural human arrogance becomes the dominating factor in your ability to reason.
I expect others to say "Heck, you can rationalize anything to meet the challenge by being all 'artsy, fartsy' about it". Perhaps, I certainly see the challenges in a lot broader context than a lot of folks here do at times. I can't say that is right or wrong because, actually, I think I am too hung up on my own limitations to worry about anybody elses. I work every week to push harder the boundaries of my own thinking.
And if anybody looks at my submissions they can see the fear because my stuff has potential but it's just so damn grounded in traditional thinking I want to burn it all >:-) But that is why I am here...to learn to walk.
And if all I just said sounds stupid...just ignore it.
Life is too short to get angry over some words in a forum
:-) |
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06/11/2002 10:39:20 AM · #46 |
Dangerous,
Here is my reply to your post. It was taken from the site noted at the bottom of this post. I try to follow its guidelines (not rules):
==================================================================
Composition in a photo is like composition in a painting, the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
The aim in composition is to produce something that you like and hopefully will appeal to others.
In appealing to others you should aim to get their attention, then hold their attention and then make them want more.
Getting attention could be by means of bright colour, size, unusual framing or controversial subject matter.
To hold attention, it must have an interesting subject or scene. Usually trying to keep it simple so that the whole picture suggests or points to what you want them to see.
To make them want more the photo should have detail and or interest that will hold the eye for more than just the cursory glance while the viewer either explores the scene or looks for the story in the photo.
On top of all this, the technical quality of the photo must be good. Exposed properly and sharp where it should be sharp, unless some other effect is being aimed for.
In a painting, just as being captured by the camera, there are some basic guide lines. But remember that some of the most spectacular pictures are striking because they broke some of the basic rules.
Check out the following link. It is a very good site concerning composition and competitions:
//homepages.ihug.com.au/~parsog/Guy/composition.html
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06/11/2002 10:48:35 AM · #47 |
IMO this comment had nothing to do with the any of the things you noted, and as you will see if you actually read my whole post, I have no problem with attacking a photograph on technical merit. Mine was lacking in several areas technically.
You simply missed my point.
But thank you for the link. |
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06/11/2002 10:49:20 AM · #48 |
I think I'm lost...
If I am reading you correctly, I believe that you are saying that I should basically toss out the concept of the challenge...
If *I* can't determine how the challenge is met, should I just tell myself that I am unable to understand the photographer's meaning and simply forget about the challenge? I am quite sure that I don't understand some of these current photos and how they meet the challenge. I'm sure the photographer had 'on the road' in mind. However, I think it is the job of the photographer to present something that is not so complicated for us simple minded folk to understand. The voters on this site are not all professional art critics. I surely am not...
Originally posted by hokie:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[i]Originally posted by hokie:
[i]
It sounds...arrogant..I know...but no more arrogant than when folks say "I don't get it therefore I am scoring you low".
I don't think this is arrogant... If the viewer can't relate the photo to the challenge topic, a low score will follow... part of the 'challenge' is to create a photo that meets the challenge topic, right?
[/i]
Definition: arrogance - "a feeling or an impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner OR presumptuous claims". Presumption that you know enough to say if a photo meets an art challenge that at the very beginning demands you to be creative in the very wording of the directions.
:-)[/i]
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06/11/2002 10:53:36 AM · #49 |
John, I agree with you. If people post their photos here for voting and comments, then they are likely to get comments like ''I don''t get it'' if the connection to the challenge isn''t one that many people would make. There''s nothing wrong with either posting that photo, or making that comment. It just shows that not all people make the same connection when looking at the same photo. And life would be boring if everyone did think the same.
If the photographer takes that photo only for him/herself and not to find out what others think, why post?
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think I''m lost...
If I am reading you correctly, I believe that you are saying that I should basically toss out the concept of the challenge...
If *I* can''t determine how the challenge is met, should I just tell myself that I am unable to understand the photographer''s meaning and simply forget about the challenge? I am quite sure that I don''t understand some of these current photos and how they meet the challenge. I''m sure the photographer had ''on the road'' in mind. However, I think it is the job of the photographer to present something that is not so complicated for us simple minded folk to understand. The voters on this site are not all professional art critics. I surely am not...
Originally posted by hokie:
[i]Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[i]Originally posted by hokie:
[i]
It sounds...arrogant..I know...but no more arrogant than when folks say "I don''t get it therefore I am scoring you low".
I don''t think this is arrogant... If the viewer can''t relate the photo to the challenge topic, a low score will follow... part of the ''challenge'' is to create a photo that meets the challenge topic, right?
[/i]
Definition: arrogance - "a feeling or an impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner OR presumptuous claims". Presumption that you know enough to say if a photo meets an art challenge that at the very beginning demands you to be creative in the very wording of the directions.
:-)[/i]
[/i]
* This message has been edited by the author on 6/11/2002 10:54:47 AM.
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06/11/2002 10:57:57 AM · #50 |
BTW- If I think the challenge is not met, the photo can still score as high as a 5 if the photo meets my idea of a good photo... I don't give ones anymore... but if i can't determine the relationship to the challenge, I don't score any higher than a 5...
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