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06/28/2007 02:47:46 PM · #126 |
"Some parents are not advocates of physical punishment, some are"
Are you kidding me? The ones who are in favor of physical punishment, i prefer to call them criminals.
If you think that beating kids is the only way to get through to some, you are essentially an idiot.
the fact that Im even entertaining your comments with a response makes me feel like an idiot. I am officially less intelligent than I was at the beginning of the day for talking to you. Thank you.
Your method w/ your dogs is perfectly acceptable. I have a perfectly well behaved golden retriever. I don't even own a leash. He walks by my side and obeys my commands. He is also only 3 which is not an easy task for those who know goldens and their tempermant. I use the same methodology as you, I speak sternly and command respect and when out of line he used to get put on his back and held by the throat. He is treated like a dog and Im the alpha, when he gets out of line, I do what the alpha would do. This works because dogs are wild animals and this is their nature and how they understand. I don't want to completely blow your mind, but that doesn't work with kids, never has, never will.
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06/28/2007 02:53:44 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
Are you kidding me? The ones who are in favor of physical punishment, i prefer to call them criminals.
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Hmmm... yeah... might explain the rise in school violence since the eradication of corporal punishment. Yeah, kids really respect a firm talking too, ooh or time out. That one really works.
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06/28/2007 03:15:18 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by ssodell:
Talk to the kids about the rules that are in place and give them knowledge so they understand why they can't ride skateboards where they were. |
These guys were experienced skateboarders and particpiating in a National Skateboarding Day that ADVOCATES illegal skating and getting arrested. They got EXACTLY what they were looking for. National publicity.
I AM NOT IN ANYWAY CONDONING THE OFFICERS ACTIONS.
It's just naive to think these kids weren't looking for a fight. |
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06/28/2007 03:16:12 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
If you think that beating kids is the only way to get through to some, you are essentially an idiot. |
Are you capable of having a discussion without calling names and insulting? Is that how you intend to get your kids to respect and obey you? I can see how your kids would disrespect a cop. They'd learn it from you. |
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06/28/2007 03:28:35 PM · #130 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
... I am officially less intelligent than I was at the beginning of the day |
Ever notice that, when things are viewed in isolation and out of context, the message can be totally different to what it was at the onset?
... Some things are worth noticing.
Ray |
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06/28/2007 03:31:15 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
if my hypothetical daughter mouthed off to or disobeyed a cop, if he doesn't teach her a lesson i will. |
One wonders once again if someone like you has any actual, rather than hypothetical, children. Simply curious.
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Question back to you, would you want your 13 year old daughter mouthing off to or disobeying a cop? If they did, what do you think is just punishment? |
The exact opposite of whatever the "cop" did. |
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06/28/2007 03:38:10 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
if my hypothetical daughter mouthed off to or disobeyed a cop, if he doesn't teach her a lesson i will. |
One wonders once again if someone like you has any actual, rather than hypothetical, children. Simply curious.
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Question back to you, would you want your 13 year old daughter mouthing off to or disobeying a cop? If they did, what do you think is just punishment? |
The exact opposite of whatever the "cop" did. |
You're digging a little to far there. No, I really do not have kids. Want to come search my house for proof? Why the hell would I lie about not having kids? What are you getting at?
Got it, so if your daughter mouthed off to a cop you'd give her a hug. that'll teach her. You win parent of the year! Why can't anyone answer that simple question? |
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06/28/2007 03:42:23 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by rswank:
To LoudDog who said "Question back to you, would you want your 13 year old daughter mouthing off to or disobeying a cop? If they did, what do you think is just punishment?"
Not a beating or a choking.
Dicipline by fear is advocated by the weakminded. |
Well you said what is not just punishment, what do you think would be just punishment for disrespecting a cop? Discipline by asking not to do it again is advocated by the soft minded.
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Swearing at or verbally disrespecting a cop is free speech buddy.
There is no judicial punishment.
Parental punishment for disrepecting a cop varies on the kid.
Grounding, revoking privledges, or extra chores etc, you know - the obvious.
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I personally think disrespecting a cop is a major offense deserving of punishment they will remember and harsh enough to deter them from repeating it.
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Your opinion and if YOU decide to punish your child for it then that's your parental right. But the first amendment prevents you from punishing me from telling a cop to go eff himself after he chokes a little girl.
Originally posted by LoudDog:
these kids probably needed a good beating.
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God help you if you have kids.
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06/28/2007 03:47:28 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
You're digging a little to far there. No, I really do not have kids. Want to come search my house for proof? Why the hell would I lie about not having kids? What are you getting at? |
Lie? I never suggested you lied. Not sure how you deduced that.
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Got it, so if your daughter mouthed off to a cop you'd give her a hug. that'll teach her. You win parent of the year! Why can't anyone answer that simple question? |
Ehrm... I guess you missed the point. The exact opposite form of "discipline", that is. |
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06/28/2007 03:47:28 PM · #135 |
Im sorry, you are not an idiot. That comment about not being wrong to physically punish kids was idiotic though.
Respect is earned, not demanded. My kids will have respect because I will show them respect and I show respect for others. They will respect me based on my decisions I make and for my philosophies on life. they may disagree with all of it, but they will at least be respectful.
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06/28/2007 03:48:56 PM · #136 |
Originally posted by rswank:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
these kids probably needed a good beating.
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God help you if you have kids. |
Not to mention the kids. |
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06/28/2007 03:59:06 PM · #137 |
I think maybe some are reading a little more into me then what I intend. That or parents are REALLY soft today.
By a beating I mean a couple swats on the butt, nothing life threatening. A belt or a paddle is over the line as is a punch. And the reason for the beating needs to be a good one. Saying a bad word or talking in class does not justify a beating. Resisting arrest, disobeying a police order, or running from a cop does.
A butt whipping works just like an alpha roll on a dog. Once you do it a couple times you’ll probably never have to do it again. If someone is beating their kid regularly that’s a problem.
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06/28/2007 04:02:30 PM · #138 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
My kids will have respect because I will show them respect and I show respect for others. They will respect me based on my decisions I make and for my philosophies on life. they may disagree with all of it, but they will at least be respectful. |
That's great, but you should start practicing that. You threw several insults at me just because I disagreed with you. Do you think I respect you for that. If you came at me with a solid arguement and treated me with respect, I could still respect you. I hope when you disagree with your kids you treat them better then you treated me. |
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06/28/2007 04:03:34 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by rswank:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
these kids probably needed a good beating.
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God help you if you have kids. |
Not to mention the kids. |
god help us all if this behavior from kids is acceptable!!! |
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06/28/2007 04:04:22 PM · #140 |
would you want your 13 year old daughter mouthing off to or disobeying a cop? If they did, what do you think is just punishment?
To answer this question... Obviously they need to know that what they did was wrong. With that age group, I believe they would respond to talking and explaining what they did and why its not OK. I don't mean a don't mouth off again type speech, but an explanation of why its wrong and socially unacceptable. 13 year olds dont have any idea the consequences that go with their actions. They don't know that cops are going to assume the worst at all times because they have no real life experience, they don't read the news etc...
All the cop did was reinforce the fact that kids are scared of cops. All these kids will remember is that someone who is in a position of power and whos job it is to protect did just the opposite and turned violent on them.
If this cop handled it like a professional like he was supposed to and trained to do, he would have given them a citation, maybe called their parents, confiscated their skateboards all in a civilized manner. If that was the case I would say good on him and my kid would have to deal with all that trouble themselves, part of growing up.
Instead the cop turned agressive, so as the parent I would support my kid completely. I would make sure this cop was fired etc... He crossed the line and he was the "mature adult" in teh situation. Regardless what the kids said, they used words and he used force. |
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06/28/2007 04:07:04 PM · #141 |
Originally posted by rswank:
The second kid choked, after the girl, was upset at the cop and concerned she was being hurt. He was imploring him to chill out. He had her yet increased his aggression.
He was not interfering, he was yelling "she is riding a skateboard, what the fuck is wrong with you."
There is no law against that. |
Absolutely correct. It's legal to yell at a cop. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, nor that it will do anything other than increase the tension in a situation.
However, all of that is moot. The cop only grabbed the boy after he moved suddenly toward him. I'm not saying the cop should've reacted as he did, but let's be clear on what provoked him to grab the boy. It wasn't just words.
Message edited by author 2007-06-28 16:07:51.
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06/28/2007 04:07:12 PM · #142 |
If my daughter mouthed off to a cop. I would want that cop to tell me about it along with his side of the story. I would then ask my daughter why she mouthed off, What she said to the cop, I would ask her what the cop said to her etc etc etc. Then a proper punishment would be issued.
I certainly would have a problem with a cop using physical force to restrain my daughter just because she didn't sit down when he told her to especially if she did absolutely nothing wrong in the first place.
The police only make matters worse for themselves when they do this sort of thing. The bald cop in the video will never have the trust of another teenager the rest of his career and eventually it will come back to bite him in the ass.
I do not support illegal activity, But I will never support a cop when he or she abuses authority. This is one of those cases where the cop just went too far. He pretty much freaked out. Probably Roid Rage.
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06/28/2007 04:10:08 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by rswank:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
these kids probably needed a good beating.
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God help you if you have kids. |
Not to mention the kids. |
god help us all if this behavior from kids is acceptable!!! |
Thanks for maintaining composure while being attacked appreciate the levelheaded disagreements.
But, we have veered from the original debate.
It's not whether the kids were disrespectful etc.
The debate is whether excessive force was used and whether a cop was out of control when dealing with enforcing a city ordinance that is most likely just a ticketable offense not an arrestable one.
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06/28/2007 04:17:05 PM · #144 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by rswank:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
these kids probably needed a good beating.
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God help you if you have kids. |
Not to mention the kids. |
god help us all if this behavior from kids is acceptable!!! |
What behaviour would that be? Presenting oneself as innocent when one truly believes so? Running away from an angry, armed adult a minimum of two and a half times your age, three times your body weight, and twice your thickness? Calling someone "Sir" and using like obliging language in order to attempt to defuse a situation that's rapidly spiralling out of control at the instigation, you believe, of the "adult"?
Bravo, I say. By the way, why do you think this incident is being investigated by the brass at the force? (Hint: if you said "Because it got shown YouTube", you'd be wrong.) |
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06/28/2007 04:18:10 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by rswank:
The debate is whether excessive force was used and whether a cop was out of control when dealing with enforcing a city ordinance that is most likely just a ticketable offense not an arrestable one. |
The priginal post, in addition to the link says,
"they just seem, so young. so young that they don't even know what is up"
So far, in addition to the 13-year-old, I have also found out that one of the involved is NINETEEN and one is TWENTY-ONE. That's two ADULTS. The 19-year-old RAN and the 21-year-old is accused of assaulting a 67-year-old man during the melee.
These people definitely knew what was up and were looking for a fight. Again, I'm not condoning the cop's actions, but the OP is way off-base to think this is a group of innocent cherubs.
updated news story
Message edited by author 2007-06-28 16:21:39. |
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06/28/2007 04:28:52 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
I do not support illegal activity |
Let's not forget, there's illegal, and then there's illegal. Skateboarding in violation of a city ordnance is not the same as carrying a gun into a school, for example.
When I was fifteen, a friend and I crossed a train overpass over a busy street. We sat down on the other side in some grass. After a few minutes, a big burly guy in his thirties approached us and threatened to beat us up because he thought we had thrown a rock from the overpass that broke his windshield. A cop came by and asked us questions, searched through our wallets, and let us go, since there was no evidence we'd done anything.
We thought it best to tell our respective parents as soon as we each got home. As I told the story to my dad, even before I got out the fact that we hadn't done anything wrong, he was inscensed that the cop had searched our wallets for some unknown reason (probably looking for pot). He really wanted to do something about that. I eventually managed to let him know that all was well, and that we hadn't actually thrown rocks or broken any windows.
So, there's also parenting and parenting. I'm sure there's more than a few parents out there who would have immediately laid into their kid and barely let the story unfold before "punishing" them and coming up with all kinds of reasons why the kid was to blame. Not my dad... he actually was concerned with protecting my rights. Imagine that.
By the way, I didn't turn out to be a homicidal maniac, or any other kind of maladjusted adult, due to such wildly unconventional treatment at the hands of my parents. |
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06/28/2007 04:29:19 PM · #147 |
oh my! oh my! where is the popcorn??
I believe is naive to think that a beating will solve any real problem as it is to think that you can solve all conflicts just by talking specially with children. Physical punishment doesn't only mean beating! and whether we like it or not humans are conditioned by the environment just as animals. A good punishment on the right time is much better (IMHO) than months of psycho therapy and juvenile detention (or whatever you call it).
Some people might need a beating, some others just a serious talk, others are just loose cannons...
Amazing how some people take everything to a personal level...
Now avoid punches under the belt ;) |
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06/28/2007 04:32:33 PM · #148 |
Originally posted by chip_k:
These people definitely knew what was up and were looking for a fight. |
Absolutely no evidence for that. Everything occurred after the thirteen year old was handcuffed and choked. There is absolutely no evidence that the skateboarding happened in the first place because these people were "looking for a fight".
Message edited by author 2007-06-28 16:32:48. |
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06/28/2007 04:35:12 PM · #149 |
Being at work, I haven't had a chance to watch the video. I just wanted to point out that any 'life style' choice your kid might make that will cause people to assume, right or wrong, that they're some kind of 'punk kid' should prompt a discussion about cops. Frankly, if you look like a punk, authorities will treat you like one and no one should be caught unawares by that fact. As such, I suspect the kids knew the cops would react the way they did, but that doesn't necessarily make such a reaction right.
In regards to punishment, I think it really depends on the child-parent relationship. Some of the punishments that worked on you when you were younger would have no effect - or a negative effect - on other kids. |
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06/28/2007 04:38:46 PM · #150 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I have grabbed them by the throat and held them on their back 1-2 times each in their lifetime (called and alpha roll). I've only done this to them when I caught them in the act of aggression towards a person or another dog. Some people are not a fan of the alpha roll but I found it to have worked wonders. |
Love the alpha roll... works wonders! Makes them respect the person in charge :) (and doesn't hurt them a bit)
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