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06/28/2007 04:43:33 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by chip_k:
These people definitely knew what was up and were looking for a fight. |
That is quite impressive that you can determine the state of mind of kids prior to being assaulted on a video.
I think that it is definately reasonable to conjecture that the kids were looking to have their voices heard in a civil disobedient style of protest against a city ordinance with which they had no vote.
This was "Go Skateboarding Day" and according to goskateboardingday.org part of it is to protest and "to raise awareness about the issues we face".
A positive outcome from 2006 is described:
"We took to the streets and let the city know that we won't stand for the lack of action they've taken to replace the demolished skatepark. We skated to City Hall where our message was clear and by 2:00 p.m. everything had changed. We were permitted to skate at the popular band shell area on the beach (which is normally illegal) with more than 70 skateboarders strong for the entire day!"
Rosa parks should be smiling.
MLK saddenned.
(yeah a little dramatic but has the Founding Fathers paws all over it)
Originally posted by chip_k:
Again, I'm not condoning the cop's actions, but the OP is way off-base to think this is a group of innocent cherubs.
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A 19 yr old and 21 yr. old are hardly mature adults.
There were also 4 juveniles charged.
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06/28/2007 04:55:52 PM · #152 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by chip_k:
These people definitely knew what was up and were looking for a fight. |
Absolutely no evidence for that. Everything occurred after the thirteen year old was handcuffed and choked. There is absolutely no evidence that the skateboarding happened in the first place because these people were "looking for a fight". |
Sorry, but these kids just wanted to promote their agenda. "Skateboarding Is Not A Crime." This was a protest. At the end of the video, the kid goes, "Happy 'Go For A Ride On Your Skateboard Day.'" The site effectively ENCOURAGES uncivil disobedience and that's what these kids were doing.
If they were concerned about the welfare of their friend(s), wouldn't they quit shouting "He's being arrested for riding a skateboard," and start shouting, "Hey, he's just 13! Quit being so rough with him?" |
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06/28/2007 04:59:10 PM · #153 |
[quote=noisemaker] I didn't say Canada was flawless, but in a ratio to America we are more controlled(Canada is) [/quote
You guys have Hockey. That's why there is less fighting and trouble in Canada. |
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06/28/2007 04:59:42 PM · #154 |
Originally posted by Sunniee:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I have grabbed them by the throat and held them on their back 1-2 times each in their lifetime (called and alpha roll). I've only done this to them when I caught them in the act of aggression towards a person or another dog. Some people are not a fan of the alpha roll but I found it to have worked wonders. |
Love the alpha roll... works wonders! Makes them respect the person in charge :) (and doesn't hurt them a bit) |
Pinning down a dog is almost the same as putting your kid in a time out in the corner. You just aren't as physical with touch. We have more brains and don't need physical resistance for most things. But if your kid was acting really bad would you pin them down until there fit was over. It is similar because we are all animals. I think we are all just as wild as the other animals on this earth and we are the ones killing the earth like idiots. |
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06/28/2007 05:05:44 PM · #155 |
Originally posted by rswank:
A positive outcome from 2006 is described:
"We took to the streets and let the city know that we won't stand for the lack of action they've taken to replace the demolished skatepark. We skated to City Hall where our message was clear and by 2:00 p.m. everything had changed. We were permitted to skate at the popular band shell area on the beach (which is normally illegal) with more than 70 skateboarders strong for the entire day!"
Rosa parks should be smiling.
MLK saddenned.
(yeah a little dramatic but has the Founding Fathers paws all over it
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Yes, there are three stories there and two are positive.
I TOTALLY applaud the two positive stories. They took the right actions and got positive change.
The THIRD I quoted in its entirety above in which a Tampa skateboarder BRAGS about their group being arrested and how he's "Looking forward to next year."
These guys acted like a bunch of hoodlums and GOT WHAT THEY WERE LOOKING FOR. National publicity and You-Tube fame. And MAYBE a cop fired for grossly inappropriate behavior.
Originally posted by rswank:
A 19 yr old and 21 yr. old are hardly mature adults.
There were also 4 juveniles charged. |
I'm sorry, but I can't even believe that you think that 21-year-olds get a FREE PASS for this type of behavior! At what age do you start having responsibility for your own actions???? |
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06/28/2007 05:06:38 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by chip_k:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by chip_k:
These people definitely knew what was up and were looking for a fight. |
Absolutely no evidence for that. Everything occurred after the thirteen year old was handcuffed and choked. There is absolutely no evidence that the skateboarding happened in the first place because these people were "looking for a fight". |
Sorry, but these kids just wanted to promote their agenda. "Skateboarding Is Not A Crime." This was a protest. At the end of the video, the kid goes, "Happy 'Go For A Ride On Your Skateboard Day.'" The site effectively ENCOURAGES uncivil disobedience and that's what these kids were doing.
If they were concerned about the welfare of their friend(s), wouldn't they quit shouting "He's being arrested for riding a skateboard," and start shouting, "Hey, he's just 13! Quit being so rough with him?" |
Thats the right of every American to stand up for what they believe is right or to oppose something they believe is wrong. Protest or not, force isn't justified. there are larger more important protests everyday and police still don't use force unless necessary.
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06/28/2007 05:09:00 PM · #157 |
| last thing, 19 and 21 year olds are in fact mature adults. They can vote for our leaders, go to adult prison for their crimes and be drafted into the military to fight wars. Whether or not they act like it, they need to be considered mature adults. |
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06/28/2007 05:11:59 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
Thats the right of every American to stand up for what they believe is right or to oppose something they believe is wrong. Protest or not, force isn't justified. there are larger more important protests everyday and police still don't use force unless necessary. |
I never, ever, ever said that the violence was justified or that we don't have a right to protest!
My entire point is that:
These kids KNEW exactly what they were doing and got the result THAT THEY WANTED. In fact, it's better than they ever dreamed. They made National News and are a You-Tube hit.
"F-in A DUDE! That's GNARLY! We're F-in FAMOUS and we're gonna get that Lard-A** Pig FIRED!" |
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06/28/2007 05:14:23 PM · #159 |
Originally posted by chip_k:
Originally posted by rswank:
A 19 yr old and 21 yr. old are hardly mature adults.
There were also 4 juveniles charged. |
I'm sorry, but I can't even believe that you think that 21-year-olds get a FREE PASS for this type of behavior! At what age do you start having responsibility for your own actions???? |
I never said a 21 yr old gets a free pass.
Just pointed out the riduculous notion that the dawn of one's 18th year out of the womb adulthood and maturity is bestowed.
Turn 21 you can handle a pint of Jack, 20 + 364day you can't.
Besides, what "type of behavior" are you referring?
Kids and immature young adults will do immature things and make mistakes.
You don't throw them to the ground and choke them for the minor ones.
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06/28/2007 05:15:45 PM · #160 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
last thing, 19 and 21 year olds are in fact mature adults. They can vote for our leaders, go to adult prison for their crimes and be drafted into the military to fight wars. Whether or not they act like it, they need to be considered mature adults. |
Yep, my buddy's kid can go die in Iraq but can't enjoy a beer after a long hard day protecting our country.
We really do treat them as mature.
Message edited by author 2007-06-28 17:16:30. |
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06/28/2007 05:34:13 PM · #161 |
What really confuses me is that this cop knew he was being filmed choking kids and that didn't really bother him. Does anyone remember the video of the LA cop punching the guy he had detained. This guy even stopped beating his suspect when he knew there was a lens on him.
Did this cop really think nothing would come of this? Did he really think anyone would think he was in the right especially from the short bit of film?
I guess we will see what happens when the lawyers sort it out. My money would be on him loosing his job and inssuing a public apology.
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06/28/2007 06:14:13 PM · #162 |
Originally posted by rswank:
Originally posted by chip_k:
These people definitely knew what was up and were looking for a fight. |
That is quite impressive that you can determine the state of mind of kids prior to being assaulted on a video. |
...and the same holds true for the myriad of accusations made relative to the police officer. There is indeed "Actus Reus", namely that he did indeed detain individuals in a very forceful manner... but it is a quantum leap to infer that anyone knows his state of mind or what he is thinking, or worst yet suffering from "Roid Rage".
Things will be resolved in the end... all that is being proffered here on both sides of the equation is mere speculation and conjecture.
Judging by some of the comments made to date, these young people should be very happy that many of YOU were not the arresting officer... the results might have been worst.
Take a very close look at the comments being made... you will soon realize that the behaviour of some is not much better than that of the man being accused.
Just another man's perspective.
Ray |
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06/28/2007 06:32:01 PM · #163 |
Someone may have already mentioned this before but; since when do cops ARREST minors for skateboarding where it isn't allowed? Shouldn't they give them a ticket or something? And sure, the kids may have freaked out a bit and acted without thinking things through. But does that give him the right to tackle and "strangle" a minor? What's next? Are jay walkers going to be pepper sprayed? It's Go Skateboarding Day for pete's sake. That means dozens upon dozens of skateboarders everywhere.
It's obvious here that even if these kids were indeed looking for a fight, they weren't the only ones.
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06/28/2007 06:48:33 PM · #164 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by rswank:
To LoudDog who said "Question back to you, would you want your 13 year old daughter mouthing off to or disobeying a cop? If they did, what do you think is just punishment?"
Not a beating or a choking.
Question to you, does your dog flinch when you raise your hand at it?
You want your kid's to?
Dicipline by fear is advocated by the weakminded. |
Well you said what is not just punishment, what do you think would be just punishment for disrespecting a cop? Discipline by asking not to do it again is advocated by the soft minded.
All discipline is fear, fear of the consequences. A good beating isn't the answer to everything, but a good talking isn't always the answer either. I personally think disrespecting a cop is a major offense deserving of punishment they will remember and harsh enough to deter them from repeating it. The punishment will be different for different kids. Some understand a good talking to, some understand nothing less then a beat down. Based on the descriptions of the video, these kids probably needed a good beating.
Some parents are not advocates of physical punishment. Some are. Neither are right or wrong. Kids have grown up screwed up both ways. if that's your disagreement with me, then lets agree to disagree.
And, I've never beat my dogs and they don't flinch at anything I do. They do exactly as I say always (I can tell them to drop a hot dog) and they are two of the happiest dogs you'll ever meet. I have grabbed them by the throat and held them on their back 1-2 times each in their lifetime (called and alpha roll). I've only done this to them when I caught them in the act of aggression towards a person or another dog. Some people are not a fan of the alpha roll but I found it to have worked wonders. |
I'm sorry but if you were my father and tried to give me a beating, well lets say that first off our roles would change and you'd be the one learning a lesson.
and secondly, any kid in their right mind would call the police and make sure that you learned you lesson and would never lay your hand on another kid again.
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06/28/2007 07:03:43 PM · #165 |
Originally posted by noisemaker:
I'm sorry but if you were my father and tried to give me a beating, well lets say that first off our roles would change and you'd be the one learning a lesson.
and secondly, any kid in their right mind would call the police and make sure that you learned you lesson and would never lay your hand on another kid again. |
Thanks for the best laugh I've had in awhile!!! Good one!
FYI: A good spanking isn't illegal here in the state of Washington.
"Physical discipline is not unlawful if reasonable and moderate and inflicted by parent /teacher/guardian for restraint or correction. Presumed unreasonable if the following are used to correct/ restrain: -- Throwing, kicking, burning, cutting, striking with a closed fist, shaking a child under 3, interfering with breathing, threatening with a deadly weapon, any other act likely to cause and which does cause bodily harm greater than transient pain or minor temporary marks. [Statute says this list is illustrative and not exclusive]. Age, size,condition of child, and location of injury are all factors in determining "reasonable" and "moderate." Sec. 9A.16.100.[Cr.]"
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06/28/2007 07:08:24 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by noisemaker:
I'm sorry but if you were my father and tried to give me a beating, well lets say that first off our roles would change and you'd be the one learning a lesson.
and secondly, any kid in their right mind would call the police and make sure that you learned you lesson and would never lay your hand on another kid again. |
Thanks for the best laugh I've had in awhile!!! Good one!
FYI: A good spanking isn't illegal here in the state of Washington.
"Physical discipline is not unlawful if reasonable and moderate and inflicted by parent /teacher/guardian for restraint or correction. Presumed unreasonable if the following are used to correct/ restrain: -- Throwing, kicking, burning, cutting, striking with a closed fist, shaking a child under 3, interfering with breathing, threatening with a deadly weapon, any other act likely to cause and which does cause bodily harm greater than transient pain or minor temporary marks. [Statute says this list is illustrative and not exclusive]. Age, size,condition of child, and location of injury are all factors in determining "reasonable" and "moderate." Sec. 9A.16.100.[Cr.]" |
another reason why i love my Country and my freedom
Message edited by author 2007-06-28 19:08:39. |
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06/28/2007 07:48:59 PM · #167 |
Originally posted by chip_k:
"F-in A DUDE! That's GNARLY! We're F-in FAMOUS and we're gonna get that Lard-A** Pig FIRED!" |
Way to mischaracterize them. Talk about inventing motives. Gee, I wonder what you really think about these kids. |
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06/28/2007 07:53:35 PM · #168 |
Originally posted by annah:
Someone may have already mentioned this before but; since when do cops ARREST minors for skateboarding where it isn't allowed? Shouldn't they give them a ticket or something? |
I think the arrests started happening when he decided he'd had enough and began charging them with disorderly conduct, resisting, fleeing, and whatever else he felt like (judging by the way he was throwing the arrest threats around).
By the way, you're the world's best photographer. (Just to bring the conversation around to photography somewhat.) |
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06/28/2007 07:53:45 PM · #169 |
So I finally watched all the videos.
I'd say the biggest shame of the whole thing is the two other cops there that show up and do nothing! THey could/should have calmed him down and helped detain the kids. They could have helped keep the peace.
THe situation could have been resolved better as the cop was very angry and acting on emotion (you're under arrest too, so are you...) and bit off way more then he could chew trying to arrest all those kids alone when he knows they may run. He should have picked one to arrest and suggested the rest leave, if he had good reason to arrest one of them (I don't know what happened before the video starts). But in the end, the kids should have never ran (or tried to run) and the kid in the white shirt should not have moved in on the cop's blind side like that... |
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06/28/2007 08:04:50 PM · #170 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by chip_k:
"F-in A DUDE! That's GNARLY! We're F-in FAMOUS and we're gonna get that Lard-A** Pig FIRED!" |
Way to mischaracterize them. Talk about inventing motives. Gee, I wonder what you really think about these kids. |
After watching the video a number of times, listening to what they were saying and doing, checking out the skate-day website, first-hand experience with kids of their age, and, uh, READING THE RESPONSES to the video, I don't feel I've mischaracterized them at all. |
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06/28/2007 09:44:35 PM · #171 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by annah:
Someone may have already mentioned this before but; since when do cops ARREST minors for skateboarding where it isn't allowed? Shouldn't they give them a ticket or something? |
I think the arrests started happening when he decided he'd had enough and began charging them with disorderly conduct, resisting, fleeing, and whatever else he felt like (judging by the way he was throwing the arrest threats around).
By the way, you're the world's best photographer. (Just to bring the conversation around to photography somewhat.) |
OO don't forget Battery because the cop got a scratch on his leg from tackling a kid |
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06/28/2007 10:19:07 PM · #172 |
Originally posted by chip_k:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by chip_k:
"F-in A DUDE! That's GNARLY! We're F-in FAMOUS and we're gonna get that Lard-A** Pig FIRED!" |
Way to mischaracterize them. Talk about inventing motives. Gee, I wonder what you really think about these kids. |
After watching the video a number of times, listening to what they were saying and doing, checking out the skate-day website, first-hand experience with kids of their age, and, uh, READING THE RESPONSES to the video, I don't feel I've mischaracterized them at all. |
Really? I find it very difficult to believe that your hyperbole-laden (and insulting) "quote" of the their intentions is a result of so much industrious study. Seems rather like gross caricature to help you mischaracterize their intentions to support your view of them. Sorry for being way off.
Message edited by author 2007-06-28 22:19:28. |
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06/28/2007 10:32:05 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by Louis:
I find it very difficult to believe that your hyperbole-laden (and insulting) "quote" of the their intentions is a result of so much industrious study. Seems rather like gross caricature to help you mischaracterize their intentions to support your view of them. Sorry for being way off. |
Now who's mischaracterizing who ;) Canadian teenage snowboarders don't talk like that? What about teen mountain bikers? Skateboarders? What about the college students who panhandle and then drive away in Mercedes Benz's? Actually, I don't think they'd see that theoretical quote as insulting. They'd get a kick out of it. Just like they get a kick out of their newfound fame. |
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06/28/2007 10:47:52 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by annah:
Someone may have already mentioned this before but; since when do cops ARREST minors for skateboarding where it isn't allowed? Shouldn't they give them a ticket or something? And sure, the kids may have freaked out a bit and acted without thinking things through. But does that give him the right to tackle and "strangle" a minor? What's next? Are jay walkers going to be pepper sprayed? It's Go Skateboarding Day for pete's sake. That means dozens upon dozens of skateboarders everywhere.
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Cops arrest people for crimes. If they are civil ordinances, they are probably warned the first time and asked to leave. We will never know because the video only starts at what I would term 'quite late in the game'.
The severity of the crime is not relevant to getting arrested or not. Could be being drunk in public and the guy is getting arrested for sleeping on a bench. How about a guy walking around with his penis exposed?
yeah, those are minor things. But if the first warning isn't listened to, then what? Yeah, a guy exposing his penis is lawful - in the right place.
What do you do if he won't put it away?
These kids were pursuing an activity that is illegal. The news report states that skateboarding itself is illegal in the area. Not specifically on the sidewalk. I seriously doubt that the kids were trying to celebrate go skateboarding day by carrying their skateboards around the city core.
Same deal. What do you do if the kids don't stop boarding? There is another article above quoted that shows how some kids used their National Skateboarding day to arrange a venue for skateboarding and they all hung out.
Funny thing about free speech. It really only applies to speaking.
How do you give a ticket to someone who has no ID?
I used to wonder how a cop would go about giving me a ticket when the helmet law was introduced in Victoria. You either have ID or you are detained.
Someone else suggested confiscating the skateboards. ROFL!
How crazy would that have been?
Officer: Give me your skateboard.
Kid: no.
Officer: I am confiscating your skateboard.
Kid: no.
Officer: Ok, I will take your skateboard.
.....
Fill in the blanks.
No, that probably would have resulted in a tug of war situation, and the kids still would have been walking around disturbing the peace pretending to be all cool-headed trying to tell the officer that it's OK because they don't feel that they are doing anything wrong.
look at how the people responded who were just walking by. Look at all the people gathering in a crowd. Those kids were causing a scene. They went there to do so. Sounds like 'disturbing the peace' and 'disorderly conduct' to me.
Probably will get that cop fired too.
I agree that a choke-hold can be very uncomfortable and even dangerous, but the officer was not wrong to do that. Is there a better method? Perhaps slugging them in the face with a night stick? How about if he had pulled his gun? Firing some warning shots perhaps? how about shooting the girl in the leg to prevent her from running away from being arrested?
I see that the officer was careful in the use of his force. A choke-hold was used on two people that were standing. Neither of them were harmed (maybe hurt a bit, but not harmed - there's a difference). Looks like an appropriate level of force to me. He was loose enough that one managed to get free, so I seriously doubt that anyone was in real danger of getting hurt by those choke-holds. Unless of course they resisted arrest...
I don't see anything resembling excessive force used with the first detainee in the video. He never strikes the person, never uses a weapon, doesn't pull a gun. he just restrains the person. At the time, the person seemed fine with the use of force. She/he didn't intend to run away. Not hurt, no physical damage at all.
I hope if I ever get arrested that the officer is that gentle with me.
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06/28/2007 11:08:30 PM · #175 |
I already said they were near a great skate park.
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
To all those who think the cop was justified in his actions... What would you think if that was your 13 year old daughter getting put into a choke hold by a huge adult male officer?
Besides that cops always give kids on skateboards trouble in every city everywhere. They get threatened with arrests everytime they try to skate whether in a parking lot away from people or on the street etc... The only way they avoid stupid trouble by power engourged police is to run away.
One thing on the fact that someone said "most citys have skateparks". This is kind of true. Just having a skatepark isn't enough, they need to be maintained. In Burlington VT where I live, we have a skatepark in a nice spot down by Lake Champlain. At one time this park was so run down it was useless to skaters. Bolts in the ramp were no longer flush, the copings were rusty. This made the park more dangerous and unskateable. The town kept using the argument that kids do have a place to go, but in reality that park was just used by teens to go drink and smoke weed because it was secluded, no skaters or anyone to come and bother them. It got run down even more, more drinking and drugs, more vandalism etc... and the skate kids were back getting harrassed on the street by cops. |
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