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06/27/2007 10:20:58 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by crayon:
i think as long as the cops do their jobs and keep peace and order then it doesn't really matter if they cross the line once awhile when upholding the law. just my opinion. i'd rather have this than having to live in a dangerous neighborhood. sometimes it takes a bit of violence to fight violence. |
What violence? I guess I missed that part, if it were my daughter, I would have lawyers involved!!
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06/27/2007 10:35:13 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by noisemaker:
Originally posted by crayon:
i think as long as the cops do their jobs and keep peace and order then it doesn't really matter if they cross the line once awhile when upholding the law. just my opinion. i'd rather have this than having to live in a dangerous neighborhood. sometimes it takes a bit of violence to fight violence. |
....are you implying skateboarding is violent....? |
sorry i was looking at the bigger picture, not this particular "skateboard girl" video. the triads would rule the streets on the day the cops aren't allowed to use brute force while enforcing the law. |
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06/27/2007 10:46:18 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by noisemaker:
Originally posted by crayon:
i think as long as the cops do their jobs and keep peace and order then it doesn't really matter if they cross the line once awhile when upholding the law. just my opinion. i'd rather have this than having to live in a dangerous neighborhood. sometimes it takes a bit of violence to fight violence. |
....are you implying skateboarding is violent....? |
sorry i was looking at the bigger picture, not this particular "skateboard girl" video. the triads would rule the streets on the day the cops aren't allowed to use brute force while enforcing the law. |
Fair enough...
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06/27/2007 11:07:46 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
This is what I was refering to about the girl.
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Thanks, Bugzeye. I was able to watch the whole thing when I got home. No way he should've done that.
But the kid he wrestles down immediately after had it coming. He was yelling obscenities at the cop and then was stupid enough to actually make a move toward him. I'm guessing he was going to try to get the cop off the girl, but that's just dumb, dumb, dumb.
At any rate, no one comes out of this looking good. I'd bet a lot of money the kids knew they weren't allowed to skateboard there in the first place. They shouldn't have run, they shouldn't have yelled at the cop. On the other hand, they were being smartass teenagers. Not exactly a novel thing.
The cop, on the other hand, should've been an adult and restrained himself.
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06/27/2007 11:09:25 PM · #80 |
That video made me queasy, but reading the responses to it make me want to actually vomit.
1)I don't think that the kids planned this at all. They probably had the cameras for filming while skateboarding. How do you think they get the footage for when people do stunt and break bones (like on the show scarred)?
2)I've never been a skater, but I have known plenty. Sure they can act a little emo, but they are usually more clean cut than someone on the football team. As for keeping them off the streets to avoid harming pedestrian and "maiming" them....how many people do you know were decapitated when a kid flipped an olly? Honestly that is just ridiculous, and if they want to get rid of anything that is going to hurt pedestrians, why don't they outlaw bicycles as well?
3)I'm in Martial Arts and have learned many of the same techniques that officers are taught in training. What he did was absolutley incorrect and entirely inappropriate. Not only did he choke the girl at first using his forearm directly to the windpipe, but he also grabbed 2 people at once and had his elbows up while wildly swinging around. Looking closely at this, if he had accidently turned all the way around and one of the kids had tripped, he could have easily crushed their windpipes or BROKEN their necks, possibly killing her. Aside from the fact that they were teenagers, he could have seriously injured anybody doing what he did and clearly did not employ proper submission techniques.
4) After viewing it several times, it is clear that the officer did not need to charge the kids for more than skateboarding. Yeah, they were breaking the law and should be punished accordingly. However, he went after that one kid only because he heard him say that he had a picture of him choking the other teen. Then he abandons his 'suspect' to go presumably destroy the evidence. I have to say, I would do the same thing if a cop was trying to get his hands on my camera. As for the girl, it didn't appear as if she was doing anything wrong other than talking and had no reason to be asked to sit down, which is why she said "no". What if the cop went up to a random old lady watching this scene and told her she was against city ordinance and should sit down...do you think the crowd would be very supportive? And yes, the kids were talking while they probably shouldn't have been, but they are just words and the officer did not have to answer or even react to them in the way he did.
5) I am not speaking about police officers as a whole, just about this particular one, that in my opinion should be fired for using excessive force. I know that police are usually out there to protect innocent citizens, but these offercer's actions were infuriating to watch and it probably happens everyday.
Message edited by author 2007-06-27 23:24:13.
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06/27/2007 11:22:49 PM · #81 |
This also reminds me of something that happened a few years ago. When me and my friend were 15 we went to a well-known abandoned house to shoot some footage for a scary movie project for school. Seeing that the door was completely unhinged, and us being younger and not-so-mature(ok, dumb), we went inside. Well, about 5 minutes into looking around the completely empty house, we heard voices and radios outside. We figured out that someone had called the police, so we gathered up our stuff and started to go down the stairs. All of a sudden we hear a woman officer start yelling at us and a dog barking very loudly (we were unable to see her). We yelled back "what?" because the dog would not stop barking and thus we couldn't hear her commands. We heard "downstairs" "hands up" in between the incessant barks. So we yelled back "okay" and started going downstairs. Apparently though the cop couldn't hear over her own K-9 dog and started basically screaming at us, and all that I could make out was "going to send the dog on you!". We yelled "NO! NO, we're coming" and luckily she heard us. As we turned the corner we saw 8 cops crammed into the tiny kitchen with 3 of them pointing guns at our heads, one of whom had his finger on the trigger. My friend was pretty freaked by all of the guns but I was honestly worried more about the dog snapping it's jaws and being held be what looked like a 100lb woman who was struggling to hold the German Sheppard back less than a foot away from me.
They then asked us if we had any accomplices upstairs as they patted us down., and sent us outside where more officers were waiting. We stood still with our hands behind our heads while the cops checked the rest of the house. My friend kept saying “oh my god, oh my god” over and over, I said “I know, it’s ok” (keep in mind that we were very compliant throughout this whole scene) Then we heard a voice whisper in our ears, “If you say one more word, I’ll throw you on the ground and handcuff you myself.” This was the same cop who had his finger on the trigger, and it wasn’t so much the context of what he said, but the tone in which he said it that was so frightening close to being described as “bloodthirsty”. I heard one of the officer speak into his radio and say that this either appeared to be “a terrorist attack or a school project.”…I had to stop myself from laughing at that. The one who said that was actually reasonable with us took our names, warned us not to trespass (it wasn’t breaking and entering since the door was already broken) and then sent us on our way. The thing that bothers me was that he was the only one who seemed to honestly be trying to keep the peace. The rest of the officers expressions as we left were nothing more than disappointed…as if they wanted to use their force, even if it was used on teenage girls.
Were we out of line? Absolutely. Should we have thought before we acted? Of course. Did we deserve to have guns pointed at us? Maybe, the cops were trying to protect themselves from potential danger. Did we deserve to have a gun pointed at us with a finger on the trigger? NO.
It’s the little details that can point out an over-zealous and potentially disturbed person/officer, and this was definitely one of them (in my opinion). In law enforcement, you are to keep your finger off of the trigger unless you are prepared to take a life, and the fact that he was apparently ready to take that action greatly disturbs me. Also, there was the dog that could have been let go of simply because we could not hear over the barking or because he was put in the hands of a very thin woman and could have broken free on accident.
Now…remember why we went to that house? We were there to film, and we did. My friend caught almost all of the incident on camera, but unfortunately the lens was pointed to the ceiling the entire time because she had her hands up, so it is only audio. As we walked downstairs she let them know she had a camera strapped to her hand (she couldn’t remove it or set it down, so she gave them warning). You can hear on the audio that everyone goes silent (except for the freakin dog) when they saw the camera, which shows that its presence had an effect on them. They took it and stopped it from recording, but luckily they couldn’t figure out how to view or delete information.
We showed it in class next week and still managed to get a good grade :)
Btw, 2 weeks later there was a shooting across the street from where I work and only ONE cop car pulled up and the stayed at the end of the block even though the gunman (who turned out to be a jewelry store owner chasing thieves) had set his gun on the road and was walking toward them with his hands up. There were frightened pedestrians on the sidewalk next to him that could have easily grabbed the gun and gone after him because the situation was not clear. I think in total only 3 cops who showed up. I was amazed at how happy they were to apprehend some trespassing girls, but when something happened that actually involved danger occurred, they hid with their tail between their legs. Again, I’m not aiming this at police officers in general, but my small town department doesn’t seem quite on target when it comes to wanting to genuinely protect people.
Just some observations and I’m not trying to offend anyone…
Message edited by author 2007-06-27 23:25:05.
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06/27/2007 11:27:20 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by Blue Moon:
That video made me queasy, but reading the responses to it make me want to actually vomit.
1)I don't think that the kids planned this at all. They probably had the cameras for filming while skateboarding. How do you think they get the footage for when people do stunt and break bones (like on the show scarred)?
2)I've never been a skater, but I have known plenty. Sure they can act a little emo, but they are usually more clean cut than someone on the football team. As for keeping them off the streets to avoid harming pedestrian and "maiming" them....how many people do you know were decapitated when a kid flipped an olly? Honestly that is just ridiculous, and if they want to get rid of anything that is going to hurt pedestrians, why don't they outlaw bicycles as well?
3)I'm in Martial Arts and have learned many of the same techniques that officers are taught in training. What he did was absolutley incorrect and entirely inappropriate. Not only did he choke the girl at first using his forearm directly to the windpipe, but he also grabbed 2 people at once and had his elbows up while wildly swinging around. Looking closely at this, if he had accidently turned all the way around and one of the kids had tripped, he could have easily crushed their windpipes or BROKEN their necks, possibly killing her. Aside from the fact that they were teenagers, he could have seriously injured anybody doing what he did and clearly did not employ proper submission techniques.
4) After viewing it several times, it is clear that the officer did not need to charge the kids for more than skateboarding. Yeah, they were breaking the law and should be punished accordingly. However, he went after that one kid only because he heard him say that he had a picture of him choking the other teen. Then he abandons his 'suspect' to go presumably destroy the evidence. I have to say, I would do the same thing if a cop was trying to get his hands on my camera. As for the girl, it didn't appear as if she was doing anything wrong other than talking and had no reason to be asked to sit down, which is why she said "no". What if the cop went up to a random old lady watching this scene and told her she was against city ordinance and should sit down...do you think the crowd would be very supportive. And yes, the kids were talking while they probably shouldn't have been, but they are just words and the officer did not have to answer or even react to them in the way he did.
5) I am not speaking about police officers as a whole, just about this particular one, that in my opinion should be fired for using excessive force. I know that police are usually out there to protect innocent citizens, but these offercer's actions were infuriating to watch and it probably happens everyday. |
Ditto! Very well put Leah! I'm sorry but if I had witnessed this scene firsthand my first knee jerk response would be to stop the cop from hurting anyone, which of course makes me the bad guy because he is a police officer, oh well wrong is wrong...cop or not!! Just my opinian...
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06/27/2007 11:41:31 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
But the kid he wrestles down immediately after had it coming. He was yelling obscenities at the cop and then was stupid enough to actually make a move toward him. I'm guessing he was going to try to get the cop off the girl, but that's just dumb, dumb, dumb. |
See, that part leaves me a little confused. I've watched the video a number of times now, and I honestly don't see the kid "making a move". I *do* see him turn his shoulder in and move, but to me it looks like he was pushed forward from behind. His motion just doesn't seem to imply intentional movement. Of course, I could be horribly wrong about that. I'm also not saying that, in that case, the cop was wrong to respond. Even if the kid was pushed from behind, it generally _looked_ like he was an aggressor. |
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06/27/2007 11:51:35 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by chimericvisions:
See, that part leaves me a little confused. I've watched the video a number of times now, and I honestly don't see the kid "making a move". I *do* see him turn his shoulder in and move, but to me it looks like he was pushed forward from behind. His motion just doesn't seem to imply intentional movement. Of course, I could be horribly wrong about that. I'm also not saying that, in that case, the cop was wrong to respond. Even if the kid was pushed from behind, it generally _looked_ like he was an aggressor. |
of course, we could replay the video over and over again and scrutinize the smallest of details. but if it was unfolding right in front of you, you dont have that much time to think and react. what i'm trying to bring across is that, the video may show only partially what happened.
edit: do you know it takes only 1.5 second for a person who, at standstill with a weapon in hand, to land a blow to your face with that weapon? sometimes it takes even less depending on the assailant. and it takes about 0.5 seconds for our body to react (to defend) after seeing the assailant's first movement? they study these at self-defence schools here.
Message edited by author 2007-06-27 23:56:24. |
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06/27/2007 11:59:55 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by jahoward:
I agree that the force may have been over the top, but we don't really know the whole story. It's actually very easy to avoid getting roughed up by the cops.
1. Don't break the law.
2. If you do break the law and get caught, don't run.
3. Do what the officer tells you to do. |
Nice black and white world you live in.
Ever hear of civil disobedience?
Peaceful protest to advance change is protected.
Breaking laws in a non-violent way does not grant permission to be "roughed up by the cops".
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06/28/2007 12:01:17 AM · #86 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by chimericvisions:
See, that part leaves me a little confused. I've watched the video a number of times now, and I honestly don't see the kid "making a move". I *do* see him turn his shoulder in and move, but to me it looks like he was pushed forward from behind. His motion just doesn't seem to imply intentional movement. Of course, I could be horribly wrong about that. I'm also not saying that, in that case, the cop was wrong to respond. Even if the kid was pushed from behind, it generally _looked_ like he was an aggressor. |
of course, we could replay the video over and over again and scrutinize the smallest of details. but if it was unfolding right in front of you, you dont have that much time to think and react. what i'm trying to bring across is that, the video may show only partially what happened.
edit: do you know it takes only 1.5 second for a person who, at standstill with a weapon in hand, to land a blow to your face with that weapon? sometimes it takes even less depending on the assailant. and it takes about 0.5 seconds for our body to react (to defend) after seeing the assailant's first movement? they study these at self-defence schools here. |
Weapon? I guess I missed the weapon as well...oh maybe the weapon was what they said...words are pretty dangerous...sorry, it doesn't wash with me...just my thoughts...
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06/28/2007 12:03:30 AM · #87 |
Originally posted by chimericvisions:
Originally posted by vxpra:
Using this same logic I can say "Clearly since these kids had a hidden camera they intended to provoke an incident with the police." |
You could say that, but since it doesn't appear to have been hidden, and wasn't even present for the initial problem, you'd be wrong.
The officer, on the other hand, had no interest in the kid with the cell phone camera until he was made aware of the fact that he'd been caught on camera brutalizing a teenager. |
There is no way to know if he had interest in the kid with the cell phone camera, it appears that way on the video, but how do you know what happened before the people with the camera ran up. Perhaps he attempted to help his friend escape and the officer decided to handcuff the first kid before he dealt with him. Maybe it is just a coincidence that the kid said "I have a picture of you choking him" as the cop turned his attention to him. The purpose of my post was to point out that you were assuming something from the content of the video that only the cop really knew.
You made an assumption, I made an assumption. Neither of which can be proven by the content of the video.
If the video camera was not hidden then cop clearly knew he was being recorded, if he was intent on destroying the evidence on the cell phone camera why didn't he turn his attention to the kid with the camera before the end of the clip? We see them running up, but did the cop see them running up. In the same situation I would probably just assume that they had likely caught everything- including the choking on the camera and if my intent was to destroy that evidence I would have made damn sure that the video camera suffered a terrible disfiguring accident.
Without seeing every moment of this- from the time that the cop confronted the kids to the end it is impossible to know exactly what exactly went on. And it is impossible to know what anyone was thinking at any given time- even if there was a tape of the entire incident. Which if you read some of the comments posted on the television stations website apparently there is quite a bit more to this video than what is being shown on Youtube.
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06/28/2007 12:13:12 AM · #88 |
Originally posted by jackal9:
Weapon? I guess I missed the weapon as well...oh maybe the weapon was what they said...words are pretty dangerous...sorry, it doesn't wash with me...just my thoughts... |
Jack, please step out of what you know and try to imagine the situation as it unfolded. You're a cop trying to deal with this girl when a boy, who's already close to you, yelling obscenities at you, suddenly moves toward you.
Again, from what I saw on the tape, the cop was out of line in how he treated the girl. But when the other kid moved toward him, he had no way of knowing what was coming - more words, a punch, or worse.
Maybe he was pushed, maybe he tripped. It doesn't matter. You don't know, and you have 1/10 second to decide.
I guess I'd just like to hear the people attacking the cop at least admit the kids were in the wrong for yelling at him. There's plenty of blame to go around, not just on the cop's part. I'm not saying he was right in how he handled it, but I'm also going to lay some of the blame on the kids.
For those of you who think "it's just teenagers," I suggest you find yourself one and then ask them to get out of your grasp. It's not like holding a 5-year-old's hand, who, trust me, can be pretty squirmy even though they're a lot smaller than a teen.
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06/28/2007 12:21:27 AM · #89 |
Originally posted by vxpra:
Originally posted by chimericvisions:
Originally posted by vxpra:
Using this same logic I can say "Clearly since these kids had a hidden camera they intended to provoke an incident with the police." |
You could say that, but since it doesn't appear to have been hidden, and wasn't even present for the initial problem, you'd be wrong.
The officer, on the other hand, had no interest in the kid with the cell phone camera until he was made aware of the fact that he'd been caught on camera brutalizing a teenager. |
There is no way to know if he had interest in the kid with the cell phone camera, it appears that way on the video, but how do you know what happened before the people with the camera ran up. Perhaps he attempted to help his friend escape and the officer decided to handcuff the first kid before he dealt with him. Maybe it is just a coincidence that the kid said "I have a picture of you choking him" as the cop turned his attention to him. The purpose of my post was to point out that you were assuming something from the content of the video that only the cop really knew.
You made an assumption, I made an assumption. Neither of which can be proven by the content of the video.
If the video camera was not hidden then cop clearly knew he was being recorded, if he was intent on destroying the evidence on the cell phone camera why didn't he turn his attention to the kid with the camera before the end of the clip? We see them running up, but did the cop see them running up. In the same situation I would probably just assume that they had likely caught everything- including the choking on the camera and if my intent was to destroy that evidence I would have made damn sure that the video camera suffered a terrible disfiguring accident.
Without seeing every moment of this- from the time that the cop confronted the kids to the end it is impossible to know exactly what exactly went on. And it is impossible to know what anyone was thinking at any given time- even if there was a tape of the entire incident. Which if you read some of the comments posted on the television stations website apparently there is quite a bit more to this video than what is being shown on Youtube. |
So it's okay to choke hold a teenager with no weapon, just because they guestion your response to a situation? Choke old a teenager in a way that is potentially life threating just because they disagree with your violent response to a friend?? No, we can't see what happened before the camera got there, maybe the first kid was out of line, I still think the cops response was out of line but be that as it may, we do not know so I will leave that part out of this discussion. My point is that he WAY over reacted to the other kids that were just talking to him...So he's a cop...doesn't that mean to serve and PROTECT! not injure?? just my thoughts...
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06/28/2007 12:25:49 AM · #90 |
i bet you guys will shoot me down for this but...
Canada's law enforment seems alot more controlled, you never hear about any of this kind of stuff happening up here.
(its cause we live in igloos right?:P)
long live RCMP officers! |
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06/28/2007 12:29:39 AM · #91 |
Originally posted by noisemaker:
i bet you guys will shoot me down for this but...
Canada's law enforment seems alot more controlled, you never hear about any of this kind of stuff happening up here.
(its cause we live in igloos right?:P)
long live RCMP officers! |
I won't!! LOL. Long live the Mounted Police!
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06/28/2007 12:40:21 AM · #92 |
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06/28/2007 12:46:19 AM · #93 |
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06/28/2007 12:46:55 AM · #94 |
Originally posted by rswank:
Nice black and white world you live in.
Ever hear of civil disobedience?
Peaceful protest to advance change is protected.
Breaking laws in a non-violent way does not grant permission to be "roughed up by the cops". |
Peaceful protest is completely legal, hence no need for the cops to be involved.
Breaking laws in a non-violent way is no reason to be roughed up the by the cops. Failing to obey an officer when caught breaking the law might land you a fat lip and a trip in the back of a cruiser.
With all of that being said, there are times when the cops take it too far, but as I mentioned earlier, it's real easy to avoid getting roughed up because I follow the rules that are set forth by the law makers I elected. If I don't come to a complete stop at a stop sign and a cop pulls me over, I pay the fine and move on and I don't get my ass beat. I try and run from the cops or spit on the officer, there's a good chance I'm going to get bruised up a little. Pretty easy choice to make.
(p.s. I love these split arguments...mac/pc....ford/chevy...nikon/canon...getting beat up by the cops/following the rules... Everyone goes away a winner! |
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06/28/2007 12:49:39 AM · #95 |
Originally posted by crayon:
of course, we could replay the video over and over again and scrutinize the smallest of details. but if it was unfolding right in front of you, you dont have that much time to think and react. what i'm trying to bring across is that, the video may show only partially what happened.
edit: do you know it takes only 1.5 second for a person who, at standstill with a weapon in hand, to land a blow to your face with that weapon? sometimes it takes even less depending on the assailant. and it takes about 0.5 seconds for our body to react (to defend) after seeing the assailant's first movement? they study these at self-defence schools here. |
No, I understand... I'm not saying he was wrong to do what he did, just that the actions of the kid didn't look right to me. I'm a weapons (which I own legally, and use) and martial arts fanatic (which I've taken, but not extensively, and book-studied pretty heavily). He had a choice and very little time to make it in, and in that instant, it was probably the right one. Or at least, not a wrong one.
Self-defense wise, it takes 3 seconds to make the decision and then draw a holstered firearm - if your aggressor is already within 25' before you begin this process, you're screwed. |
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06/28/2007 12:50:25 AM · #96 |
Originally posted by jahoward:
(p.s. I love these split arguments...mac/pc....ford/chevy...nikon/canon...getting beat up by the cops/following the rules... Everyone goes away a winner! |
That's just silly. EVERYONE knows that Canon makes a better milkshake than either Ford or Apple. And cops? Don't even get me started on their milkshakes.
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06/28/2007 12:51:10 AM · #97 |
That cop probably got picked on by skateboarders in high school.
Definately abusing his authority IMO. |
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06/28/2007 12:53:52 AM · #98 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
I guess I'd just like to hear the people attacking the cop at least admit the kids were in the wrong for yelling at him. There's plenty of blame to go around, not just on the cop's part. I'm not saying he was right in how he handled it, but I'm also going to lay some of the blame on the kids. |
I disagree with you about it being wrong for them to yell at him, or tell him to calm down. They're allowed to do that, and there's very little he can do about it unless they're breaking another law, or their yelling turns to threats. |
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06/28/2007 12:55:45 AM · #99 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
Originally posted by jahoward:
(p.s. I love these split arguments...mac/pc....ford/chevy...nikon/canon...getting beat up by the cops/following the rules... Everyone goes away a winner! |
That's just silly. EVERYONE knows that Canon makes a better milkshake than either Ford or Apple. And cops? Don't even get me started on their milkshakes. |
My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard, damn right it's better than yours
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06/28/2007 12:59:52 AM · #100 |
Originally posted by chimericvisions:
Originally posted by levyj413:
I guess I'd just like to hear the people attacking the cop at least admit the kids were in the wrong for yelling at him. There's plenty of blame to go around, not just on the cop's part. I'm not saying he was right in how he handled it, but I'm also going to lay some of the blame on the kids. |
I disagree with you about it being wrong for them to yell at him, or tell him to calm down. They're allowed to do that, and there's very little he can do about it unless they're breaking another law, or their yelling turns to threats. |
I didn't say they're not allowed to do it. There are a million things I'm allowed to do that aren't right. I'm talking about yelling "what the F*CK' at him. And in a tense situation, repeatedly challenging someone isn't the right way to defuse things.
Message edited by author 2007-06-28 01:01:22.
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