cops like this get to me.... - DPChallenge Forums

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

06/28/2007 11:22:41 PM · #176

Kinda off topic, but sorta not --

Was there an organized nationwide thing going on with young skaters in the past few weeks? I only ask because last week in my little hometown of podunkville, ruralUSA, there was a conflict between the local cops and skaters.

it just seemed a rather strange coincedence.

edit
ahhhhh, got it!

(sorry, I thought I had read the whole thread, but apparently missed several posts. . . .)

Message edited by author 2007-06-28 23:25:10.

Louis

Nikon D800

06/28/2007 11:28:46 PM · #177

Originally posted by eschelar:

Funny thing about free speech. It really only applies to speaking.

Tell that to Rosa Parks.

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

06/28/2007 11:31:41 PM · #178

another, almost tangential question,

In our local paper, editorials kept saying "the city should provide them somewhere to skate," and I've seen that same thing said here.

Is it really the responsibility of the government to do that, or should it be a private endeavor?

I ask because it seems odd that those (speaking locally) who have complained the most about government intervention in such matters are the ones who want the same government to take care of them.

Just strikes me as odd.

swankFoto

Fujifilm X-E1

06/29/2007 12:03:03 AM · #179

Originally posted by eschelar:

Funny thing about free speech. It really only applies to speaking.

Uh, no.

swankFoto

Fujifilm X-E1

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

06/29/2007 12:08:21 AM · #180

Originally posted by eschelar:

Cops arrest people for crimes. If they are civil ordinances, they are probably warned the first time and asked to leave.
The severity of the crime is not relevant to getting arrested or not.

No you are just plain wrong.
Look up the difference between arrestable and ticketable offenses.
When was the last time you got arrested for a speeding ticket?

eschelar

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM

06/29/2007 01:37:40 AM · #181

Hrm doin' double time here... :)

What I should have said regarding free speech is: Funny thing about freedom of speech is that it doesn't give license to just plain willfully breaking the law simply because it feels stupid.

It applies to speaking, not doing stuff that's illegal just because you feel like it.

Originally posted by eschelar:

Cops arrest people for crimes. If they are civil ordinances, they are probably warned the first time and asked to leave.
The severity of the crime is not relevant to getting arrested or not.

You know what. I think maybe I am just plain wrong on that one. Didn't think about that. I will look it up. thanks for correcting me!

Originally posted by another thread elsewhere from a guy in the area of the accident:

That looks like downtown LR where there is an official public ordinance on skateboarding. It's an arrestable offense. Also, the camera was clicked on after the kid was already on the ground. Who knows, the kid could have taken a swing at the cop with his skateboard before this.

So I guess the point that I was trying to make is a bit more clear if I say it like this:

Cops arrest people for arrestable crimes. The severity of the crime does not define what is arrestable or ticketable. Severity of crime hardly seems an appropriate term for skateboarding. However, laws are different from place to place and in that place, it's arrestable.

I did not know that it was before I posted. Because of this, I don't believe my post was very accurate towards Annah, who was trying to point out that skateboarding is not usually arrestable.

My point about the severity of the crime refers to the crime itself. Sure, it may only be ticketable to begin with, but at what point does it go beyond this? For example, where I come from, Speeding becomes Excessive Speed at just 20KPH over the limit. Don't know if that's arrestable. But at 50KPH over the limit, it becomes Reckless Driving. That IS arrestable in many places.

The point is, taking a ticketable or 'lesser' offense to an extreme might put you in the position of passing beyond what in most cases only ends up with you getting a warning or a ticket.

The differences here aren't necessarily about the severity of the crime, but the extent that it is performed. I always used to wonder what a cop would do if I had no ID while riding my bicycle on the sidewalk and I just gave a fake name and threw the ticket away when I was done. Lots of kids downtown take this attitude.

Message edited by author 2007-06-29 01:55:38.

RayEthier

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06/29/2007 04:44:34 AM · #182

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by eschelar:
Funny thing about free speech. It really only applies to speaking.

Tell that to Rosa Parks.

I do believe that what you are alluding to was an act of "Civil Disobediance" and that "Free Speech" was not at the forefront of the argument, but I could be wrong.

Ray

Art Roflmao

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06/29/2007 04:47:34 AM · #183

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by eschelar:
Funny thing about free speech. It really only applies to speaking.

Tell that to Rosa Parks.

I do believe that what you are alluding to was an act of "Civil Disobediance" and that "Free Speech" was not at the forefront of the argument, but I could be wrong.

Ray

You're not wrong. It had nothing to do with free speech.

NVPhoto

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

06/29/2007 09:58:07 AM · #184

Originally posted by karmat:

Town and local governments build recreation areas all the time. Usually there is a parks and recreation service as a branch of that governemnt. Yes it is their job to do this. The towns build baseball and soccer fields and hockey rinks, do upkeep on pools and running tracks, why is a skate park any different? Chances are that any town in any country has some space that isn't being used that could be developed into a skate park. Chances are that the same town would have volunteers to construct it. Chances are the same town would also have some donated money to buy supplies.

Provide the kids a place to skate and they will use it. Do you think kids really like skating in crowded areas with pedestrians and cars? Its not their perfect situation? Im sure they would love a place to skate away from people and obstructions that they can hang out and call their own.

The real reason towns balk at building skate parks is that they unfairly catagorize kids who skateboard as trouble makers and punks. They assume that the park will attract underage drinking and drugs. Pathetic old time thinking.

KaDi

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06/29/2007 10:04:40 AM · #185

Originally posted by Jmnuggy:

....The real reason towns balk at building skate parks is that they unfairly catagorize kids who skateboard as trouble makers and punks. They assume that the park will attract underage drinking and drugs. Pathetic old time thinking.

The minimal internet searching shows that one of the "kids" arrested, Drew Irwin, is the son of a man who along with a local store donated equipment to the Hot Springs Skatepark last year. Here's a link to the article: //www.ci.hot-springs.ar.us/pr/2006/dept-public-info-pr-101006-2.html

So, they have a publically supported skatepark. How is this like the Tampa protesters again?

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

06/29/2007 10:08:42 AM · #186

Originally posted by Jmnuggy:

The real reason towns balk at building skate parks is that they unfairly catagorize kids who skateboard as trouble makers and punks. They assume that the park will attract underage drinking and drugs. Pathetic old time thinking.

I find your mind reading capabilities simply astounding.

I have listened to your gripe and was impressed with some of the suggestions made... now if only one could convince these young people to actually initiate a process with the local government and business and devise a plan to see this proposal to fruition.

Where I live we (gasp, shudder !!!) actually have young people that form part of a board that makes representations to the town council on issues that affect young people. The youth of our community also have their own center where they gather and exchange idea, and one where they actually invite local police to discuss things, exchange views and make presentations.

Instead of pointing accusing fingers and questioning the reasoning of others, we would all be better served by becoming pro-active and trying to foster understand, tolerance and peaceful co-existence.

A view from one of those old farts you allude to,

Ray

LoudDog

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06/29/2007 10:19:04 AM · #187

Originally posted by rswank:

Originally posted by eschelar:
Cops arrest people for crimes. If they are civil ordinances, they are probably warned the first time and asked to leave.
The severity of the crime is not relevant to getting arrested or not.

No you are just plain wrong.
Look up the difference between arrestable and ticketable offenses.
When was the last time you got arrested for a speeding ticket?

If you get pulled over for speeding, and then try to flee, they have no problem arresting you and throwing you in jail.

The kids were not getting arrested for skateboarding!!! They were getting arrested for fleeing!

NVPhoto

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Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

06/29/2007 10:34:08 AM · #188

its not mind reading. I am fairly involved. My roommate started a youth group that was picked up and now funded by the Boys and Girls Club, he runs a your center in the mall for 14-20 year olds. He organizes events and competitions such as the ACE games which is a skateboard/bike competition and a snowboard comp in the winter. THese kids are smart good kids with big ideas that could benefit their age group.

I go to all the events, I hang out in the center, I do know these kids. I also coached a 12 year old little league team.

We treat them as adults and hold them responsible for their decisions/actions. Most do not treat them like this. From their teachers to mall security, they are constantly treated like little kids who deserve minimal respect and whos opinions are treated like they don't matter. These kids, majority of them are considered the "troubled" kids in school who act out etc etc. A lot of their behavior problem stems from constantly being told they are wrong and constantly being ignored when they have something important to say. They have become very good at doing everything wrong because thats what they know.

When they are given an opportunity to organize or design something, they really excell. They like the responsibility that is given to them and come up with some really amazing work. Some of the events that are run are completely run by 14-16 year olds. They have put on concerts in the park, competitions, BBQ's, even fix up a delapadated baseball field.

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

06/29/2007 10:54:56 AM · #189

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Yeah. I quoted eschelar's use of "free speech", but the skaters, from all previous posts, were practising civil disobedience. I just blatanty connected the dots. :P

swankFoto

Fujifilm X-E1

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

06/29/2007 11:22:46 AM · #190

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by rswank:

Originally posted by eschelar:
Cops arrest people for crimes. If they are civil ordinances, they are probably warned the first time and asked to leave.
The severity of the crime is not relevant to getting arrested or not.

No you are just plain wrong.
Look up the difference between arrestable and ticketable offenses.
When was the last time you got arrested for a speeding ticket?

If you get pulled over for speeding, and then try to flee, they have no problem arresting you and throwing you in jail.

The kids were not getting arrested for skateboarding!!! They were getting arrested for fleeing!

Yes, what's your point?
"Arrestable vs. ticketable" was in response to a statement that all crimes warrant arrest which was false.
The topic is whether excessive force was used in detaining kids who fled an attempt by a cop to (presumably) issue a ticket not whether fleeing is arrestable.
In fact, I think the Supreme Court has even ruled that fleeing the police gives probably cause for detention and personal search.

Message edited by author 2007-06-29 11:24:14.

LoudDog

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06/29/2007 11:39:34 AM · #191

Originally posted by rswank:

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by rswank:

Originally posted by eschelar:
Cops arrest people for crimes. If they are civil ordinances, they are probably warned the first time and asked to leave.
The severity of the crime is not relevant to getting arrested or not.

No you are just plain wrong.
Look up the difference between arrestable and ticketable offenses.
When was the last time you got arrested for a speeding ticket?

If you get pulled over for speeding, and then try to flee, they have no problem arresting you and throwing you in jail.

The kids were not getting arrested for skateboarding!!! They were getting arrested for fleeing!

Yes, what's your point?
"Arrestable vs. ticketable" was in response to a statement that all crimes warrant arrest which was false.
The topic is whether excessive force was used in detaining kids who fled an attempt by a cop to (presumably) issue a ticket not whether fleeing is arrestable.
In fact, I think the Supreme Court has even ruled that fleeing the police gives probably cause for detention and personal search.

Maybe I misunderstood your intention?

In the video the kids repeatedly say "we're just skateboarding..." it was driving me nuts because they didn't seem to understand that their crime became much worse then "just skateboarding" when they ran.

I though you were saying "they were just skateboarding", but I now think I was wrong.

06/29/2007 11:49:37 AM · #192

As far as stereotyping skaters. About half of them I've met and known are decent kids with a sense of humor, high intelligence, great personalities and a tremendous amount of athletic skill. The other half? Well, they were punks -- out to drink and do drugs and cause trouble and the whatnot, and were proud of it.

I did a little more research about what happened in my town. (Please understand, we are a small rural town that is basically friendly to skaters. Only the busiest streets are "closed," and the business that post "No skating signs" do so on the advice of insurance companies. We even have "skate events" sponsored by different groups two or three times a year, and our skater population is tiny compared to most places)

Basically, a group of skateboarders "shut down" main street to skate down it. All but two of them had been warned previously about skating on main street. Because it is a high traffic (foot and vehicular), there is a prohibition about riding on the street or sidewalks. They can go one block in any other direction and ride, but not on main street.

The Police Department and Town Officials have said had they asked for a petition to do as such in honor of skateboarding day, they would have worked with them. The leader of the event admitted that he should have gotten the proper approval beforehand, but also said that he felt asking forgiveness was easier then getting permission. Would he have gotten it? I seriously doubt it, but then they would have been able to justifiably able to say, "We, and our needs/desires are being ignored."

So, because he didn't want to get permission, a bunch of kids now have to got to juvenile court for violating a city ordinance. As I said, all but two have had at least one, if not repeated, warnings. Also, only two were 18 or over. The ones who fled/ran got their boards confiscated and were "arrested." The ones who stayed only got cited for violation of an ordinance (they didn't resist the officers).

It is a mess.

Yes, they need somewhere to ride. Honestly, though, I keep reading where this day, which was supposed to highlight/emphasize/educate about the benefits of skateboarding kept getting people arrested, and even turned violent in some places.

Call me naive, but there are ways of changing the system without breaking laws and endangering people. (Yes, Rosa Parks broke the "law." NO, she was not endangering anyone else).

In our town, I feel they should have petitioned the town to have permission to ride down mainstreet. When they were told, "NO," they could have then used that to their advantage, and then rode on the streets where they are allowed.

By deliberately breaking the law and, in some instances, trying to get arrested, those skaters around here didn't exactly dispel the notion that skaters are troublemakers. :(

NVPhoto

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Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

06/29/2007 12:18:15 PM · #193