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 06/06/2007 08:37:32 PM · #76
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:

You started the thread where you explained how you broke the rules. You stated in the first thread very boldly how you would pick a "friend's" photo over my hypothetical great image in a challenge strictly on the basis that he/she was your friend not on the merit of the image itself. You are kidding yourself in thinking that you didn't deserve this.


Ok that's out of the way. Can we stop the witch hunt before about a million more people say the same thing? Agreed. I think we all are. If we aren't going to change his mind, we aren't.

Back to the voting discussion we had...
 06/06/2007 08:38:00 PM · #77
Originally posted by BHuseman:
I wonder how this all ties into Mistersixis god. Since his account just vanished and he was stealing other people's work. Was his account just a front so that he could pump up the votes of friends?

Has anyone pulled the IP addresses to see whether or not that is the case?

I think many people have been saying for a while now that cheating is taking place on this site. It looks like it is more previlant than any of us thought.

maybe thats why we get 1's and 2's on images that finish in the top twn like every challenge we have.
 06/06/2007 08:40:13 PM · #78
Originally posted by Lowcivicman99:
Originally posted by BHuseman:
I wonder how this all ties into Mistersixis god. Since his account just vanished and he was stealing other people's work. Was his account just a front so that he could pump up the votes of friends?

Has anyone pulled the IP addresses to see whether or not that is the case?

I think many people have been saying for a while now that cheating is taking place on this site. It looks like it is more previlant than any of us thought.

maybe thats why we get 1's and 2's on images that finish in the top twn like every challenge we have.


You are very right about that. How can an image that is clearly the favorite be voted down so low by some people? Intentional acts? It seems pretty easy to me. Use one asccount at home as yours, the other account at work as your shill account.
 06/06/2007 08:42:03 PM · #79
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:

You started the thread where you explained how you broke the rules. You stated in the first thread very boldly how you would pick a "friend's" photo over my hypothetical great image in a challenge strictly on the basis that he/she was your friend not on the merit of the image itself. You are kidding yourself in thinking that you didn't deserve this.


Ok that's out of the way. Can we stop the witch hunt before about a million more people say the same thing? Agreed. I think we all are. If we aren't going to change his mind, we aren't.

Back to the voting discussion we had...


No it wasn't out of the way. I responded to something said just a few post down. Not out for a witch hunt. That comment is out of the way.
 06/06/2007 08:43:02 PM · #80
I say we light the torches, grab the pitch forks and hunt them down. Lets find these yella belle's and hang em
 06/06/2007 08:43:40 PM · #81
Originally posted by BHuseman:
Originally posted by Lowcivicman99:
Originally posted by BHuseman:
I wonder how this all ties into Mistersixis god. Since his account just vanished and he was stealing other people's work. Was his account just a front so that he could pump up the votes of friends?

Has anyone pulled the IP addresses to see whether or not that is the case?

I think many people have been saying for a while now that cheating is taking place on this site. It looks like it is more previlant than any of us thought.

maybe thats why we get 1's and 2's on images that finish in the top twn like every challenge we have.


You are very right about that. How can an image that is clearly the favorite be voted down so low by some people? Intentional acts? It seems pretty easy to me. Use one asccount at home as yours, the other account at work as your shill account.


Or how do we know that a person who intentionally shoots for the brown award every week isn't just a shill account? That is the beauty of making everyone on the site be a member and pay the 25. If people want to cheat, make them pay to cheat.
 06/06/2007 08:47:00 PM · #82
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:

You started the thread where you explained how you broke the rules. You stated in the first thread very boldly how you would pick a "friend's" photo over my hypothetical great image in a challenge strictly on the basis that he/she was your friend not on the merit of the image itself. You are kidding yourself in thinking that you didn't deserve this.


Ok that's out of the way. Can we stop the witch hunt before about a million more people say the same thing? Agreed. I think we all are. If we aren't going to change his mind, we aren't.

Back to the voting discussion we had...


No it wasn't out of the way. I responded to something said just a few post down. Not out for a witch hunt. That comment is out of the way.


lol sorry I wasn't meaning to be offensive, and I meant to say YOU got it out of the way so no one else needs to jump on board and have it become a witch hunt, not that you were taking part in one.

I just know from experience the more people gang up on you the worse matters get and you DO end up saying rediculous things because tempers flare.
 06/06/2007 08:48:35 PM · #83
Hey, if i may say..... I think DPC is about the challenges... hence the challenge in its name. but i think everyone who shoots for DPC purposes has one thing in mind... Not I want a blue ribbon, or i want the new highest score... no, we enter challenges to challenge ourselves, so we can become better. for example, (No offense meant toward scalvert but your first challenge entries were far from amazing... now, they are amazing imo... so i think that you have used the site well, and i think that is what alot of people should realize. that were not here to win or loose, were here to get better...

that is my 2 cents worth...
 06/06/2007 08:48:50 PM · #84
Originally posted by BHuseman:
Originally posted by BHuseman:
Originally posted by Lowcivicman99:
maybe thats why we get 1's and 2's on images that finish in the top twn like every challenge we have.


You are very right about that. How can an image that is clearly the favorite be voted down so low by some people? Intentional acts? It seems pretty easy to me. Use one asccount at home as yours, the other account at work as your shill account.


Or how do we know that a person who intentionally shoots for the brown award every week isn't just a shill account? That is the beauty of making everyone on the site be a member and pay the 25. If people want to cheat, make them pay to cheat.


Oh please. What do ghost accounts and troll voting have to do with friend voting? All the members that were publicly outed for friend voting DID NOT intentionally vote other images lower. How can you guys start accusing them of such?
 06/06/2007 08:49:15 PM · #85
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:

You started the thread where you explained how you broke the rules. You stated in the first thread very boldly how you would pick a "friend's" photo over my hypothetical great image in a challenge strictly on the basis that he/she was your friend not on the merit of the image itself. You are kidding yourself in thinking that you didn't deserve this.


Ok that's out of the way. Can we stop the witch hunt before about a million more people say the same thing? Agreed. I think we all are. If we aren't going to change his mind, we aren't.

Back to the voting discussion we had...


No it wasn't out of the way. I responded to something said just a few post down. Not out for a witch hunt. That comment is out of the way.


lol sorry I wasn't meaning to be offensive, and I meant to say YOU got it out of the way so no one else needs to jump on board and have it become a witch hunt, not that you were taking part in one.

I just know from experience the more people gang up on you the worse matters get and you DO end up saying rediculous things because tempers flare.


OHHHH...ok sorry for coming across b*tchy to you!! All's well then!!
 06/06/2007 08:49:58 PM · #86
Originally posted by BHuseman:
Originally posted by BHuseman:
Originally posted by Lowcivicman99:
Originally posted by BHuseman:
I wonder how this all ties into Mistersixis god. Since his account just vanished and he was stealing other people's work. Was his account just a front so that he could pump up the votes of friends?

Has anyone pulled the IP addresses to see whether or not that is the case?

I think many people have been saying for a while now that cheating is taking place on this site. It looks like it is more previlant than any of us thought.

maybe thats why we get 1's and 2's on images that finish in the top twn like every challenge we have.


You are very right about that. How can an image that is clearly the favorite be voted down so low by some people? Intentional acts? It seems pretty easy to me. Use one asccount at home as yours, the other account at work as your shill account.


Or how do we know that a person who intentionally shoots for the brown award every week isn't just a shill account? That is the beauty of making everyone on the site be a member and pay the 25. If people want to cheat, make them pay to cheat.


Yes but some can't afford it, don't know enough about it to trust to pay, don't participate enough to make the cost worthwhile. Having the free option makes it more accessable.

Perhaps require the submitting of a Self Portrait only visible to the SC if one wants to remain anonymous?

I dunno. ALl options seem to take it too far.
 06/06/2007 08:54:02 PM · #87
Originally posted by rinac:
Originally posted by BHuseman:
Originally posted by BHuseman:
Originally posted by Lowcivicman99:
maybe thats why we get 1's and 2's on images that finish in the top twn like every challenge we have.


You are very right about that. How can an image that is clearly the favorite be voted down so low by some people? Intentional acts? It seems pretty easy to me. Use one asccount at home as yours, the other account at work as your shill account.


Or how do we know that a person who intentionally shoots for the brown award every week isn't just a shill account? That is the beauty of making everyone on the site be a member and pay the 25. If people want to cheat, make them pay to cheat.


Oh please. What do ghost accounts and troll voting have to do with friend voting? All the members that were publicly outed for friend voting DID NOT intentionally vote other images lower. How can you guys start accusing them of such?


Becuase if your shill account exists to bump up peoples votes you have to counter balance that with voting on some images, otherwise you would have an average vote in your profile that is too high. So if you have to vote some low, why not either vote for the guy to get the brown every week, or vote low on your perceived toughest comptetitor.
 06/06/2007 08:54:58 PM · #88
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by BHuseman:
Originally posted by BHuseman:
Originally posted by Lowcivicman99:
Originally posted by BHuseman:
I wonder how this all ties into Mistersixis god. Since his account just vanished and he was stealing other people's work. Was his account just a front so that he could pump up the votes of friends?

Has anyone pulled the IP addresses to see whether or not that is the case?

I think many people have been saying for a while now that cheating is taking place on this site. It looks like it is more previlant than any of us thought.

maybe thats why we get 1's and 2's on images that finish in the top twn like every challenge we have.


You are very right about that. How can an image that is clearly the favorite be voted down so low by some people? Intentional acts? It seems pretty easy to me. Use one asccount at home as yours, the other account at work as your shill account.


Or how do we know that a person who intentionally shoots for the brown award every week isn't just a shill account? That is the beauty of making everyone on the site be a member and pay the 25. If people want to cheat, make them pay to cheat.


Yes but some can't afford it, don't know enough about it to trust to pay, don't participate enough to make the cost worthwhile. Having the free option makes it more accessable.

Perhaps require the submitting of a Self Portrait only visible to the SC if one wants to remain anonymous?

I dunno. ALl options seem to take it too far.


Ture, some may not be able to afford the $2.09 a month to participate fully. But they have some really sweet camera gear!
 06/06/2007 08:55:55 PM · #89
Originally posted by rinac:
Oh please. What do ghost accounts and troll voting have to do with friend voting? All the members that were publicly outed for friend voting DID NOT intentionally vote other images lower. How can you guys start accusing them of such?


It's a matter of perspective. Not getting voted higher because you aren't a "friend" is equivalent to intentionally voting other images lower. Voting to manipulate the score is troll voting. So if the shoes fit...
 06/06/2007 08:59:01 PM · #90
Originally posted by BHuseman:
Becuase if your shill account exists to bump up peoples votes you have to counter balance that with voting on some images, otherwise you would have an average vote in your profile that is too high. So if you have to vote some low, why not either vote for the guy to get the brown every week, or vote low on your perceived toughest comptetitor.


Still nothing to do with the friend voting being discussed here. This type of voting does not equate to the behaviour you're suggesting.
 06/06/2007 08:59:56 PM · #91
Originally posted by stdavidson:

I have no problem with being "busted", but does someone have the fortitude or GUTS to tell me why? That is what chaps my hind!

I wasn't "busted" until I questioned the rules. Is that right? Nope! The RULES must be defined... DO IT!

If you are going to accuse and convict someone of a crime at least have the common decency to define the crime!

Nobody questioned me or told me what I did wrong prior to to the 'offense' for what I was accused, tried and convicted. All, I did was question the rules? Is that right? I don't think so. I don't believe anyone else thinks that either.


Originally posted by kirbic:
Well, I've been offline most of today, and just had to wade through this mess. Steve, I consider you a friend, and I do not make that statement lightly. You are an intelligent, considerate person. Which is why I simply cannot believe what I'm reading. You cannot honestly believe that the way to mentor a photographer is to stroke their ego by voting them all 10s. It makes no sense on the face of it. If you *really* want to help someone, give them criticism that means something. That means voting 'em fairly. All 10s is in no way fair.
Your suspension is *exactly* what was handed out to others who were exchanging unrealistically high votes. Yes, your announcement of the fact precipitated action, but if we'd found out be other means, we'd have reacted the same way. Though I did not participate in the discussion of the suspension, I am in full support of what was done, and it *really* pains me to say that.
You have been a very positive force in this community, and this community regards you as one of its valued, respected members. This little tirade, however, is a wart on that record.


Read, really read, my second paragraph.
- You had ample example, by way of those who had previously received the exact same suspension for the exact same thing
- It is *explicitly* stated and clear in the rules that this is not tolerated
- Yes, your "self-outing" precipitated the action, but you of all people should know the difference between causation and correlation
I'm through with this thread.
 06/06/2007 09:00:12 PM · #92
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Flame away...


I agree that some works of the "masters" (of any medium) are crap, but this is a competition, not a gallery. We're judging the images without names. That's why you are supposed to remain anonymous during voting (to the extent that's possible), but have your entry "signed" afterwards when it becomes a part of the DPC gallery. Feel free to sell your crap for millions then. ;-)


Every art competition I've ever been to had all the works clearly marked with the artists name and no one was concerned about "friend" voting.

Personally I think it's the DPL stuff that created the need for the cheater hunting.

It's become a witch hunt here. HE'S A WITCH, BURN HIM!!!
 06/06/2007 09:02:06 PM · #93
All of the stress from forums today pushed me to go get a manicure & pedicure. I must say I enjoyed it very much & relaxed me some. Everyone should run out & do this. You will feel better to!
 06/06/2007 09:02:59 PM · #94
Do you think they'd look at me funny if I asked for one?
 06/06/2007 09:03:18 PM · #95
Originally posted by weegi70:
(No offense meant toward scalvert but your first challenge entries were far from amazing...


You're sugar-coating the truth. My early entries sucked. Check out some of the early stuff from Elsapo, Goodman, and even a few from *whispers*... Heida. Gotta start somewhere, right? Of course, if I started off getting high scores no matter what I entered, I'd still be entering garbage today. More likely, I would have left long ago out of sheer boredom from not seeing any change in my scores.
 06/06/2007 09:03:38 PM · #96
No of course not! If you have one..you will want them all of the time :)

Originally posted by Konador:
Do you think they'd look at me funny if I asked for one?

06/06/2007 09:04:44 PM · #97
Originally posted by stdavidson:
I have no problem with being "busted", but does someone have the fortitude or GUTS to tell me why? That is what chaps my hind!


You know darn well why. You've been told why over and over. You broke the rules by voting on the photographer alone rather than the photo. The violation was clear... you gave a user nothing but 10's across the board, regardless of quality. No matter what the entry, it got a 10. 8th place? 10! Last place? 10! Anywhere in between? 10! Even if you only voted on a few images, you'd seek that one out and give it a 10. Why even bother looking at the photo if you're just going to give it a 10 anyway?

Originally posted by stdavidson:
I wasn't "busted" until I questioned the rules. Is that right? Nope! The RULES must be defined... DO IT!


You weren't busted until you got up on stage with a bullhorn and proclaimed to the entire community that you broke the rules. We checked, you did, and you were suspended for it. Duh. The rules against voting up your buddies ARE defined, and apparently understandable to just about everyone but you (as if common sense and respect for others weren't reason enough). Even so, ignorance of that rule (which I simply don't believe after the prior discussion of friend voting and suspensions) is no excuse and you've already declared repeatedly that you've read and understand the rules. If you can't play fair, you don't get to play at all.

Message edited by author 2007-06-06 21:14:52.
 06/06/2007 09:13:35 PM · #98
Originally posted by escapetooz:

what scores "mean"

Scores are used to determine placement of images within the confines of a challenge.

Scores are not used for the purpose of measuring the overall value of a photo (that is, to be compared to images from a different challenge). One of my favorite personal images scored a 5.4, which puts it at 16th place (out of 24 challenges entered) for me. It's tempting to say, "Hey this is MUCH better than my other images..." but those other images of mine were in different challenges. It would be comparing apples to bananas.

Although I admit to trying to better my overall scoring average with every entry I submit, the more important stat to me for challenges is my placement.

Originally posted by escapetooz:
how we vote

I try to be as consistent as possible, now. When I first started voting, I'm sure my voting average was lower -- but I was getting a feel for the site and discovering my voting process.

I typically start at 5 in my head, go down to 4 if I really think the image is poor, bump it to 6 or 7 if I really like it. If I have time, I will later go back and look further at the 5s, 6s, 7s and decide if they need to get bumped up. I rarely give a 10 -- and I can't remember the last time I gave a 1 or 2.

For some reason, I have it in my head that a 10 is a perfect image. Which may or may not be correct, but that's where I am now, from a voting standpoint.

Originally posted by escapetooz:
This site is about learning after all, and more and more I feel like it is being steered away from that.

IMO, DPC is about Contests/Challenges first and learning second. Of course, my goal is to become a better photog and learn as much as I can, but I really like the competition and the anticipation of turnover to see my placement. I also click on the UPDATE 'button' a good bit more than I click on the 'Tutorials' menu option. :-)
 06/06/2007 09:15:35 PM · #99
Originally posted by TechnoShroom:
It's a matter of perspective. Not getting voted higher because you aren't a "friend" is equivalent to intentionally voting other images lower. Voting to manipulate the score is troll voting. So if the shoes fit...


What makes you think you're not getting voted highly? [example] It doesn't necessarily follow that if I vote a friend 10, that I am going to vote all others lower.
 06/06/2007 09:20:28 PM · #100
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by frisca:
i agree with your point that many good shots lose out because their interest and beauty comes from longer than 3 seconds of looking. I have an image now in painting with light that is being murdered, JUST MURDERED, yet I have a prints request for it from a friend (non-dpc). She looked at it for a while. She liked the sublties. Its hard to see that in a quick vote. Which is why I said that voting isn't the best measure of a picture's worth or of the photographer's skill. Sure I'd like to learn, I just don't think the challenges are the best way for me to do so. I think getting comments is. So I enter in hopes of getting some comments. So far I have none. I am going to go do a bunch of commenting in hopes that good karma will come back to me.


Which also brings up another couple interesting (at least to me) points.

(1) There's a huge difference between a good print and the little images we submit to challenges.

(2) Just because a picture is made for a challenge topic and fits the topic and somehow connects and gets a high score, it doesn't make it necessarily a picture anyone would want to hang on their wall and maybe pass on to their children as a treasure.


I couldn't have said this better myself...; ) I agree wholeheartedly....
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