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06/06/2007 07:17:07 PM · #26 |
If a little's good, more must be better. Why not just give 10's to the top half of the photos and 9's to the rest? The top half will feel like winners, and the 9's get a good score, too. Everybody's got to be happy with a 9 or better on every photo! What a system! How PC! No loosers, at all, ever! Take your team out and buy them ice cream!
Over time, those in the top half most often, will have the highest average which is as it should be. Maybe it will be a 9.999x average ... WOW! And those with 9.00xx averages will be the alien trash of our little galaxy.
We could then argue whether 9.5 is the mean, average, or median vote for a challenge ... even graph it in Excel! I'm getting all quivery!!!
Obviously I sometines exagerate to make a point, but seriously, let's not fix what's not broken. It's not the range of possible scores that is broken.
Originally posted by pccjrose:
{snip}
I would argue (as Steve did) that rating photos could be based more on a school like grading system:
10 - A+ (perfect image with no real room for improvement)
9 - A
8 - B
7 - C
6 - D
5 and lower various shades of failure)
{snip} |
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06/06/2007 07:19:00 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Yikes. Whatever you want to think. OBVIOUSLY we all have our own individual outlooks. What I think is happening is that is being squashed by the norms on this site and voting well on what's familiar. Take a look at that voting scale that was posted. I think that was what I've been looking for. Not some 60s down with the establishment revolution. Just a simple appreciation of art, that is what we are supposed to be doing when we vote isn't it? |
No. We're supposed to vote on whatever it is that we feel when we're voting. If, for you, it is "appreciation of art", wonderful. If, for someone else, it's "WOAH, I've never seen that before!" That's their choice. If it's, "I love kitties" for another person.. all the power to them.
You're *still* trying to conform everyone else to your standards.
*EDIT* that is, if you insist that people need to change their voting habits in order to satisfy what you perceive as a problem.
If you find a method of voting that suits you and you can feel happy about, that's great.
Message edited by author 2007-06-06 19:20:55. |
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06/06/2007 07:19:26 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
My official recommendation to you is that unless you are prepared to be suspended because you might have a legitimate question that you want answerered, disagree with authority or agree with anything I might say then steer away from this type of discussion all together. |
lol. I found your whole thing quite amusing, sorry to say. I am not scared of disagreeing with authority but that is not the point of this. Like I said, I agreed with you on some points but really, as many others said, why is it fair that only your friends get the "bump" when there are a LOT of underrated photogs out there.
My message... spread the love! lol. We could all use a little chilling out being voting nazis IMO. |
It may be amusing, but could still get you suspended if you say the wrong thing. That is a sad reality.
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06/06/2007 07:21:41 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Dr.Confuser:
If a little's good, more must be better. Why not just give 10's to the top half of the photos and 9's to the rest? The top half will feel like winners, and the 9's get a good score, too. Everybody's got to be happy with a 9 or better on every photo! What a system! How PC! No loosers, at all, ever! Take your team out and buy them ice cream!
Over time, those in the top half most often, will have the highest average which is as it should be. Maybe it will be a 9.999x average ... WOW! And those with 9.00xx averages will be the alien trash of our little galaxy.
We could then argue whether 9.5 is the mean, average, or median vote for a challenge ... even graph it in Excel! I'm getting all quivery!!!
Obviously I sometines exagerate to make a point, but seriously, let's not fix what's not broken. It's not the range of possible scores that is broken.
Originally posted by pccjrose:
{snip}
I would argue (as Steve did) that rating photos could be based more on a school like grading system:
10 - A+ (perfect image with no real room for improvement)
9 - A
8 - B
7 - C
6 - D
5 and lower various shades of failure)
{snip} |
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I think you have a very harsh cynical view. |
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06/06/2007 07:23:21 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Yikes. Whatever you want to think. OBVIOUSLY we all have our own individual outlooks. What I think is happening is that is being squashed by the norms on this site and voting well on what's familiar. Take a look at that voting scale that was posted. I think that was what I've been looking for. Not some 60s down with the establishment revolution. Just a simple appreciation of art, that is what we are supposed to be doing when we vote isn't it? |
No. We're supposed to vote on whatever it is that we feel when we're voting. If, for you, it is "appreciation of art", wonderful. If, for someone else, it's "WOAH, I've never seen that before!" That's their choice. If it's, "I love kitties" for another person.. all the power to them.
You're *still* trying to conform everyone else to your standards.
*EDIT* that is, if you insist that people need to change their voting habits in order to satisfy what you perceive as a problem.
If you find a method of voting that suits you and you can feel happy about, that's great. |
I'm not saying conformity. THere already is conformity. and it's mostly of the "wow" and if no wow then you get a 5 variety.
I just think I'm not the only one that gets bummed about the low scores (and not jsut of my own photos) and the ones that are I think could benefit from trying to be a solution to the problem instead of just whinning. |
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06/06/2007 07:23:55 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by Dr.Confuser:
If a little's good, more must be better. Why not just give 10's to the top half of the photos and 9's to the rest? The top half will feel like winners, and the 9's get a good score, too. Everybody's got to be happy with a 9 or better on every photo! What a system! How PC! No loosers, at all, ever! Take your team out and buy them ice cream!
Over time, those in the top half most often, will have the highest average which is as it should be. Maybe it will be a 9.999x average ... WOW! And those with 9.00xx averages will be the alien trash of our little galaxy.
We could then argue whether 9.5 is the mean, average, or median vote for a challenge ... even graph it in Excel! I'm getting all quivery!!!
Obviously I sometines exagerate to make a point, but seriously, let's not fix what's not broken. It's not the range of possible scores that is broken.
Originally posted by pccjrose:
{snip}
I would argue (as Steve did) that rating photos could be based more on a school like grading system:
10 - A+ (perfect image with no real room for improvement)
9 - A
8 - B
7 - C
6 - D
5 and lower various shades of failure)
{snip} |
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I think you have a very harsh cynical view. |
Oh, sorry ... forgot the [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tags. |
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06/06/2007 07:25:16 PM · #32 |
I agree with Artyste - the method of voting I presented is one that I understand and can rate in a consistent manner. I noticed many great images that I artificially lowered the voting because I was conforming to a system that I did not understand. It is not the only system and I would argue it should not be...
My new approach to voting is one that I understand and thought I would share it and others could do the same...
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Yikes. Whatever you want to think. OBVIOUSLY we all have our own individual outlooks. What I think is happening is that is being squashed by the norms on this site and voting well on what's familiar. Take a look at that voting scale that was posted. I think that was what I've been looking for. Not some 60s down with the establishment revolution. Just a simple appreciation of art, that is what we are supposed to be doing when we vote isn't it? |
No. We're supposed to vote on whatever it is that we feel when we're voting. If, for you, it is "appreciation of art", wonderful. If, for someone else, it's "WOAH, I've never seen that before!" That's their choice. If it's, "I love kitties" for another person.. all the power to them.
You're *still* trying to conform everyone else to your standards.
*EDIT* that is, if you insist that people need to change their voting habits in order to satisfy what you perceive as a problem.
If you find a method of voting that suits you and you can feel happy about, that's great. |
Message edited by author 2007-06-06 19:25:50. |
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06/06/2007 07:26:58 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
I'm not saying conformity. THere already is conformity. and it's mostly of the "wow" and if no wow then you get a 5 variety.
I just think I'm not the only one that gets bummed about the low scores (and not jsut of my own photos) and the ones that are I think could benefit from trying to be a solution to the problem instead of just whinning. |
Yet you wish people to vote in a way that you can live with, which is just another form of conformity.
The real answer to the solution is what you say in the last part of your paragraph.. that people need to be a solution. This needs to be in the form of, not changing their voting patterns which would do nothing of any note anyway, but in going in, finding hidden gems they like, and making a point of letting that photographer know that they've been noticed and appreciated.
We need to get off this whole issue of scores and voting *altogether*, and let *that* part of things just remain the fun contest that it was designed and imagined to be. |
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06/06/2007 07:28:31 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by frisca:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
My official recommendation to you is that unless you are prepared to be suspended because you might have a legitimate question that you want answerered, disagree with authority or agree with anything I might say then steer away from this type of discussion all together. |
this makes NO sense whatsoever and is wholly unsupported by fact or anything that has happened to you or anyone else. |
Please explain that what I have said is wrong. I'm sure other folks will want to know for themselves.
All I know for sure is that I got a suspension out of the sky blue for one month. I responded and not one shred of evidence supporting that allegation and suspension was presented to me.
What do you think about that?
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06/06/2007 07:28:58 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
It may be amusing, but could still get you suspended if you say the wrong thing. That is a sad reality. |
You got suspended for voting in an illegal manner. Period.
Who do you honestly think is going to buy into this little "I've been oppressed" routine? |
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06/06/2007 07:31:41 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
I'm not saying conformity. THere already is conformity. and it's mostly of the "wow" and if no wow then you get a 5 variety.
I just think I'm not the only one that gets bummed about the low scores (and not jsut of my own photos) and the ones that are I think could benefit from trying to be a solution to the problem instead of just whinning. |
Yet you wish people to vote in a way that you can live with, which is just another form of conformity.
The real answer to the solution is what you say in the last part of your paragraph.. that people need to be a solution. This needs to be in the form of, not changing their voting patterns which would do nothing of any note anyway, but in going in, finding hidden gems they like, and making a point of letting that photographer know that they've been noticed and appreciated.
We need to get off this whole issue of scores and voting *altogether*, and let *that* part of things just remain the fun contest that it was designed and imagined to be. |
Yes all voters bow down to MY command. You all shall conform to MY VOTING SCALE. Is that honestly what you got from what I said? COme on. You are just insighting argument for the sake of argument. For the most part we have agreed on most issues, I don't see the debate. |
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06/06/2007 07:32:43 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by frisca:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
My official recommendation to you is that unless you are prepared to be suspended because you might have a legitimate question that you want answerered, disagree with authority or agree with anything I might say then steer away from this type of discussion all together. |
this makes NO sense whatsoever and is wholly unsupported by fact or anything that has happened to you or anyone else. |
Please explain that what I have said is wrong. I'm sure other folks will want to know for themselves.
All I know for sure is that I got a suspension out of the sky blue for one month. I responded and not one shred of evidence supporting that allegation and suspension was presented to me.
What do you think about that? |
Ig there was no evidence I'd agree with you. In the letter it posted though it said they found you were statistically voted higher and were voted higher with another user... or whatever is said. |
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06/06/2007 07:33:15 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
{snip}
All I know for sure is that I got a suspension out of the sky blue for one month. I responded and not one shred of evidence supporting that allegation and suspension was presented to me.
{snip} |
Guess your confession sort of obviated the need for evidence. |
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06/06/2007 07:34:36 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by frisca:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
My official recommendation to you is that unless you are prepared to be suspended because you might have a legitimate question that you want answerered, disagree with authority or agree with anything I might say then steer away from this type of discussion all together. |
this makes NO sense whatsoever and is wholly unsupported by fact or anything that has happened to you or anyone else. |
Please explain that what I have said is wrong. I'm sure other folks will want to know for themselves.
All I know for sure is that I got a suspension out of the sky blue for one month. I responded and not one shred of evidence supporting that allegation and suspension was presented to me.
What do you think about that? |
What evidence do you need? you've already admitted to the fact that you voted a particular user's image higher than normal deliberately. Add to that the fact that this assertion is confirmed by a look at your voting patterns for that user. Do you want to look at this report? Or are you able to trust your own memory regarding your voting for that user?
If you need to discuss your suspension with us any further, please do so by replying to the email we sent you. There is value in having this discussion in the forums.
Message edited by author 2007-06-06 19:36:20. |
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06/06/2007 07:34:56 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
All I know for sure is that I got a suspension out of the sky blue for one month. I responded and not one shred of evidence supporting that allegation and suspension was presented to me.
What do you think about that? |
Steve, you know I think the world of you and have the greatest respect for you.... but you can not honestly believe that this suspension is out of the blue. I have been watching this train wreck from the beginning, and you basically thumbed your nose at the SC. You put them into a position where they HAD to give you a suspension as you openly admitted that you were knowingly breaking a rule.
Message edited by author 2007-06-06 19:35:10. |
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06/06/2007 07:35:10 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by Dr.Confuser:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
{snip}
All I know for sure is that I got a suspension out of the sky blue for one month. I responded and not one shred of evidence supporting that allegation and suspension was presented to me.
{snip} |
Guess your confession sort of obviated the need for evidence. |
That isn't true. At least not from a true judicial standpoint. I can say I shot John Lennon... but I wasn't even alive then.
Not saying it's true one way or the other, just that the general concept is false. |
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06/06/2007 07:36:09 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
That isn't true. At least not from a true judicial standpoint. I can say I shot John Lennon... but I wasn't even alive then.
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Oh my gosh...I feel really old now.... |
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06/06/2007 07:37:06 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by wsl:
Double the amount of challenges each week. Instead of 3 (FS still per month) run 6, but limit it so that you can only enter 3 of them max. Also eliminate the ability to vote on challenges where your image is entered. This can be applied for DPL, and assign teams to challenges (can rotate the challenges so the challenges stay the same for 2 weeks, but you're entering the other 3 the following week) The teams would be voting on the opposite categories and thus reducing the amount of voting they have to do. |
I like this idea. Especially since DPC is destined to become more popular with DPL (I think it will be a big draw to the site). I used to vote occasionally, now I rarely vote because it is such a daunting task. I would love it if I could get that 'complete' feeling after voting for only 50 images...
Three problems and three possible solutions:
Friend voting. Obviously, this can't be policed and is on the honor system. But why not have a voting option for Abstain. Then, if you recognize an image, click abstain, and move on with a clear conscience (after leaving a comment, of course). I see Steve's original point about giving encouragement, but I figure a good comment (even if they know it is from me) will be worth a heck of a lot more than one 9 or 10. It is to me at least. Edit: Also, having a list of 'friends' that we never vote on (like our DPL team) would be a more streamlined way of doing it.
Vote scaling / low average vote. Most agree that the DPC scale is on the low side. I personally have a really hard time giving a 10. Plus, there is zero motivation to vote higher than everyone else -- it will hurt your own place in the results! So, why not run a statistical analysis on each voter's votes and spread them out in a bell curve with an average of 5 (or 6, or whatever). Then I can vote using whatever scale I want, and it is only the differences between the images which will be counted.
First impression voting. I like to think of DPC images as one-liners. If there is anything of depth in the image, it will most likely be missed. How about this: an advanced level of DPC with a lot of factors to vote on (technicals, composition, impression, etc). Forcing voters to spend more time with each image will get to things below the surface. It'd have to be coupled with less (and hopefully larger than 640 pix) images though. And, of course, keep the original method around because not everyone would want to do it.
Just some ideas. The last two are pretty extreme, but the first one (and a voting reorg in DPL) would be pretty easy to implement and would provide some benefits.
Message edited by author 2007-06-06 19:44:51. |
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06/06/2007 07:37:22 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
As I said, please don't take this as defending friends voting or that I friends vote. I don't. I just think it's time, esp with the falling scores with the start of the DPL to reexamine what scores "mean", how we vote, and what types of images do well and what don't.
This site is about learning after all, and more and more I feel like it is being steered away from that. |
I learned a ton from DPC no doubt. But we also have to search for new insights as opposed to always wanting them "given" to us. The pm system still works great and I would suggest everyone use it if there are specific questions....
By the way, are DPL scores low? Last time I checked Team Se7endipity has averaged over a 6.7 as a team! :)3rd highest and of course we are stuck in the hardest division...by far. Now that is an issue that needs to be addressed. Proper seedings....
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06/06/2007 07:41:35 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Yes all voters bow down to MY command. You all shall conform to MY VOTING SCALE. Is that honestly what you got from what I said? COme on. You are just insighting argument for the sake of argument. For the most part we have agreed on most issues, I don't see the debate. |
Let's see here:
from the OP: I just think it's time, esp with the falling scores with the start of the DPL to reexamine what scores "mean", how we vote, and what types of images do well and what don't.
Couple of posts later: My message... spread the love! lol. We could all use a little chilling out being voting nazis IMO.
And then recently: I have to disagree. The thought that every photo ends up where it should in the grand scheme of things is really wrong. There are MANY photos that end up in the top 10 that probably shouldn't and many that end up in the 5s that are remarkable.
It's pretty clear from those statements that you feel that changes to voting need to be made. Not necessarily a bad thing.. but it's a bit of a naive one, as your only solution thus far is adopting a different voting scale.. which can only be taken as suggesting it be adopted by more than just yourself for these changes to be brought about, no?
Anyway, I'm just enjoying the banter. Far be it from me to stop youthful energy from wanting things better, as they see it :)
Just try to realize that just because you think photos don't end up where you don't think they should, doesn't mean there is something inherently wrong with the way they *are* ending up. I'm not trying to pick on you, but how else am I supposed to take your statements? |
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06/06/2007 07:42:33 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
By the way, are DPL scores low? Last time I checked Team Se7endipity has averaged over a 6.7 as a team! :)3rd highest and of course we are stuck in the hardest division...by far. Now that is an issue that needs to be addressed. Proper seedings.... |
I second that. Although not so much the seedings, there is just no reliable way to seed teams with a playoff structure where only one team from each conference moves on. Wildcards (based on average score) are an easy way to fix that. |
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06/06/2007 07:45:38 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by Sting11165:
Three problems and three possible solutions:
Friend voting. Obviously, this can't be policed and is on the honor system. But why not have a voting option for Abstain. Then, if you recognize an image, click abstain, and move on with a clear conscience (after leaving a comment, of course). I see Steve's original point about giving encouragement, but I figure a good comment (even if they know it is from me) will be worth a heck of a lot more than one 9 or 10. It is to me at least. |
That's what the "Next" arrow is for.
Originally posted by Sting11165:
Vote scaling / low average vote. Most agree that the DPC scale is on the low side. I personally have a really hard time giving a 10. Plus, there is zero motivation to vote higher than everyone else -- it will hurt your own place in the results! So, why not run a statistical analysis on each voter's votes and spread them out in a bell curve with an average of 5 (or 6, or whatever). Then I can vote using whatever scale I want, and it is only the differences between the images which will be counted. |
If you can't vote objectively in a challenge you enter, don't vote on the challenge. Simple enough. The voting scale is 1 - 10. Use it as you see fit, it does not need to be changed because of personal issues.
Originally posted by Sting11165:
First impression voting. I like to think of DPC images as one-liners. If there is anything of depth in the image, it will most likely be missed. How about this: an advanced level of DPC with a lot of factors to vote on (technicals, composition, impression, etc). Forcing voters to spend more time with each image will get to things below the surface. It'd have to be coupled with less (and hopefully larger than 640 pix) images though. And, of course, keep the original method around because not everyone would want to do it. |
Interesting ideas here for future "test" challenges maybe.
Originally posted by Sting11165:
Just some ideas. The last two are pretty extreme, but the first one (and a voting reorg in DPL) would be pretty easy to implement and would provide some benefits. |
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06/06/2007 07:49:39 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Sting11165:
Originally posted by wsl:
Double the amount of challenges each week. Instead of 3 (FS still per month) run 6, but limit it so that you can only enter 3 of them max. Also eliminate the ability to vote on challenges where your image is entered. This can be applied for DPL, and assign teams to challenges (can rotate the challenges so the challenges stay the same for 2 weeks, but you're entering the other 3 the following week) The teams would be voting on the opposite categories and thus reducing the amount of voting they have to do. |
I like this idea. Especially since DPC is destined to become more popular with DPL (I think it will be a big draw to the site). I used to vote occasionally, now I rarely vote because it is such a daunting task. I would love it if I could get that 'complete' feeling after voting for only 50 images...
Three problems and three possible solutions:
Friend voting. Obviously, this can't be policed and is on the honor system. But why not have a voting option for Abstain. Then, if you recognize an image, click abstain, and move on with a clear conscience (after leaving a comment, of course). I see Steve's original point about giving encouragement, but I figure a good comment (even if they know it is from me) will be worth a heck of a lot more than one 9 or 10. It is to me at least. Edit: Also, having a list of 'friends' that we never vote on (like our DPL team) would be a more streamlined way of doing it.
Vote scaling / low average vote. Most agree that the DPC scale is on the low side. I personally have a really hard time giving a 10. Plus, there is zero motivation to vote higher than everyone else -- it will hurt your own place in the results! So, why not run a statistical analysis on each voter's votes and spread them out in a bell curve with an average of 5 (or 6, or whatever). Then I can vote using whatever scale I want, and it is only the differences between the images which will be counted.
First impression voting. I like to think of DPC images as one-liners. If there is anything of depth in the image, it will most likely be missed. How about this: an advanced level of DPC with a lot of factors to vote on (technicals, composition, impression, etc). Forcing voters to spend more time with each image will get to things below the surface. It'd have to be coupled with less (and hopefully larger than 640 pix) images though. And, of course, keep the original method around because not everyone would want to do it.
Just some ideas. The last two are pretty extreme, but the first one (and a voting reorg in DPL) would be pretty easy to implement and would provide some benefits. |
Finally an idea that could work!!! Vote Scaling is a brilliant idea. By comparing the difference between the users' votes rather than the actual vote placed would level the playing field and allow people to vote whatever way they want. Heck, the site already has your statistically favorite images. This just seems like the fairest way to resolve this whole voting scandle troll thing... IMHO.
BTW from now on I am voting with the proposed scale :)
10 - A+ (perfect image with no real room for improvement)
9 - A
8 - B
7 - C
6 - D
5 and lower various shades of failure)
Message edited by author 2007-06-06 19:50:47. |
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06/06/2007 07:51:04 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
It may be amusing, but could still get you suspended if you say the wrong thing. That is a sad reality. |
You got suspended for voting in an illegal manner. Period.
Who do you honestly think is going to buy into this little "I've been oppressed" routine? |
I only care about what is right and wrong. If you think I'm wrong and that I should be suspended for experssing an opinion and for something I've NEVER been suspended for before then tell me the reasons. Not for me but for others. That is what is meaningful.
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06/06/2007 07:52:34 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
It may be amusing, but could still get you suspended if you say the wrong thing. That is a sad reality. |
You got suspended for voting in an illegal manner. Period.
Who do you honestly think is going to buy into this little "I've been oppressed" routine? |
I only care about what is right and wrong. If you think I'm wrong and that I should be suspended for experssing an opinion and for something I've NEVER been suspended for before then tell me the reasons. Not for me but for others. That is what is meaningful. |
What?!?!?! Talk to all of the people who got one month suspensions for friend voting just a few weeks ago. They did precisely what you did and you should and did get to enjoy the same consequences.
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