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06/08/2007 10:54:05 AM · #1 |
| Voters at DPC are harsh. If I get a 5 here, I know the picture would be rated higher elsewhere. "Most" of the photos that rate high here are extremely well done, so the harsh voting keeps making me strive to do better. If you end up curving the scale, I think that strive for excellence would be lost somewhat. |
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06/07/2007 11:55:58 PM · #2 |
Originally posted by pccjrose:
Steve - Your suggestion some time ago about voting ratings, and a recent post of a winner of a National Geographic photo contest (with a photo that didn't garner much more than a 6 on DPC) has changed mine and several other voters approaches on DPC.
I would argue (as Steve did) that rating photos could be based more on a school like grading system:
10 - A+ (perfect image with no real room for improvement)
9 - A
8 - B
7 - C
6 - D
5 and lower various shades of failure)
could be a new and legitimate rating system that voters may choose to use.
Historically, we have all tended to vote to the mid point (5.3 to 5.5 as a typical average for a challenge), but it is my personal opinion that many, many photos on this site are outstanding and should be rated as such. Simply rating a really solid image a 6 because is it a little less awesome as another that a photo that won with a final score of a 7 really doens't make sense to me.
I think what has happended is that many people see winning photos with a score of 7.2 and figure that an image with that quality should be given that score. This does not necessarily follow. We need to remember that people have differnet opinions and need to vote according to those opinions. Therefore, by combining all scores from a challenge, the final value will be lower than anyone individual score. Giving an individual photo a 10 doesn't mean it is better than a photo that won a challenge with a composite score of 8.1, but means that you think it is fantastic and at the top from a technical, emotive, and challenge meeting perspective. |
What! Since when is average failure? Average has always been a C where I've gone to school. 10=A+, 9=A, 8=A-/B+, 7=B, 6=B-/C+, 5=C, 4=C-/D+, 3=D, 2=D-/F+ and 1=F might be a better spread. I also don't see the point of grading on a curve. No reason at all that there can't be many high scores if there are many really fine photos in a challenge. And I agree that the average score that a photo gets in a challenge does not have to be the same as the score I'd give it (or did give it if I voted on that challenge.) I grade on an aesthetic and technical scale that I do my best to keep consistent. How I vote does not depend on how others have voted. That we see things differently becomes obvious when the votes are totaled and averaged.
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06/07/2007 11:53:44 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by crayon:
i suspect there might be cases of friends voting each other 1s going on, but the SC are not intervening because it is sad enough as it is already! :P |
LMAO That just made my day. :)
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06/07/2007 11:47:16 PM · #4 |
| i suspect there might be cases of friends voting each other 1s going on, but the SC are not intervening because it is sad enough as it is already! :P |
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06/07/2007 11:44:52 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by kolasi:
Thanks, I understand now. Just for the record, I hate cats |
Well, it's essentially the same if you vote all cat photos a one, but give your buddy's cat pic a six ... |
heh, good point |
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06/07/2007 11:33:06 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by kolasi:
Thanks, I understand now. Just for the record, I hate cats |
Well, it's essentially the same if you vote all cat photos a one, but give your buddy's cat pic a six ... |
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06/07/2007 11:31:20 PM · #7 |
Thanks, I understand now. Just for the record, I hate cats
Message edited by author 2007-06-07 23:31:31. |
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06/07/2007 11:29:45 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by kolasi:
I dont knwo if this has been asked before.
Lets say someone is a big fan of cats (or whatever) and there is a photographger who uses cats 99% of the time,
Would that person giving giving the cat photographer 9s and 10s all the time constitite a violation? |
Not if you are voting that way because that's how you vote almost all cat pictures, regardless of photographer. If you give that photographer's cat photos all tens, but all the other cat photos scores from 4-7 it starts to look a little funny ... |
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06/07/2007 11:29:07 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by kolasi:
I dont knwo if this has been asked before.
Lets say someone is a big fan of cats (or whatever) and there is a photographger who uses cats 99% of the time,
Would that person giving giving the cat photographer 9s and 10s all the time constitite a violation? |
well it would be clearly a violation IF that cat photographer had been returning 10s to this person.
or
when this person only rate 9s and 10s to the cat photos from this photographer for the longest time
Message edited by author 2007-06-07 23:29:39. |
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06/07/2007 11:26:16 PM · #10 |
I dont knwo if this has been asked before.
Lets say someone is a big fan of cats (or whatever) and there is a photographger who uses cats 99% of the time,
Would that person giving giving the cat photographer 9s and 10s all the time constitite a violation? |
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06/07/2007 11:19:16 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Tell me, PLEASE, what is "friend voting"? What crime did I commit? That is what I'm convicted for yet never confronted with any evidence. |
This was posted a long time ago ... I notice you never responded even though karma and I each called it to your attention later on in the original thread.
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
If you would just define the rule and tell us, please, what "friend voting" is then the site would be better for it. |
Try this:
"Consistently assigning a higher vote to the photos of a photographer known to you than you would have assigned to those same photos had the photographer been anonymous."
Of course, "may not offer biased votes ..." is shorter and means the same thing ...
Plus, it only requires a minor change to define troll voting ... not necessary with the current wording in the rules.
"Consistently assigning a higher lower vote to the photos of a photographer known to you than you would have assigned to those same photos had the photographer been anonymous." |
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I continue to find your protestations of unclarity disingenuous at best ... : (
Message edited by author 2007-06-07 23:20:21. |
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06/07/2007 09:55:13 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Tell me, PLEASE, what is "friend voting"? What crime did I commit? That is what I'm convicted for yet never confronted with any evidence. |
You and your friend (and we both know who it is so let's not play the clueless game any longer, okay?) traded tens on at least every single entry either of you submitted since last November which is only as long as the system tracks. You didn't vote a single other user that high even half as many times during that period. I know that you are completely capable of understanding the remainder should you choose to do so, so I won't waste my time explaining. |
good things should be quoted and shared. see the bold part above.
THAT my friend, is a bad thing to do.
Message edited by author 2007-06-07 21:55:31. |
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06/07/2007 06:12:30 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by mattmac:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Given all that goes into voting, a couple friend votes is statisitically insignificant... |
I've heard this mentioned quite a few times here at DPC and I'm always curious as to what people really mean by this statement.
Here is an example from a recent challenge:
The difference between 2nd and 4th place was 0.0255 (7.0563 and 7.0308, respectively). If the 4th place finisher got "a couple friend votes" (meaning, in this example -- 2 votes of 10), that 4th place image is now a 2nd place red ribbon. That 4th place image would have a score of 7.0567.
To me, that's significant (relative to DPC, which is where we are).
At DPC, a few 1/100s of a point actually matter to some of us -- and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way when I watch my score go from a 6.28 to a 6.21. Or even more so when it goes from 6.28 to 6.30. "Hey, it's just 2/100s of a point difference. Statistically, it's insignificant.". Again, not to me.
For me, I'm more worried about "Enemy Voting" than I am "Friend Voting"...those 1s can really drop a score quickly...if you find 1/10 or so significant. |
Also, if one person does it and thinks it's ok then it won't be long before the challenges are transformed into contests where the winner is the person who can recruit the most voters. |
Note, I clearly said about 879 posts back that i don't condone recriuting friends. My point is, if it happens, it happens, no big deal. |
A masked man enters a convenient store and robs the cashier. If he gets a large sum of money or a little, a crime was committed. I'm glad the police does look at it from your point of view, "if it happens, it happens, no big deal".
Message edited by author 2007-06-07 18:13:00. |
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06/07/2007 04:36:30 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by eac:
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Tell me, PLEASE, what is "friend voting"? What crime did I commit? That is what I'm convicted for yet never confronted with any evidence. |
You and your friend (and we both know who it is so let's not play the clueless game any longer, okay?) traded tens on at least every single entry either of you submitted since last November which is only as long as the system tracks. You didn't vote a single other user that high even half as many times during that period. I know that you are completely capable of understanding the remainder should you choose to do so, so I won't waste my time explaining. |
Waiting for this post to be responded to... puts the sh*t out there to the admitted offender without putting his sh*t out there to all of us. I'll continue to see  stdavidson will reply to this post since he is so desperate for attention, albeit negative.
Does anyone have a smiley banging his head against the wall? That is really what the SC and posters who are trying to explain all this to the offending party are doing. This is trolling at its worst. |
With all due respect, I'm waiting for the answer to this as well. I believe the initial admission was based on a desire to help along an individual in a mentorship capacity. The words 'traded 10's' seem to cast a bit of a shadow. Were you mentoring each other? |
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06/07/2007 04:11:19 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Note, I clearly said about 879 posts back that i don't condone recriuting friends. My point is, if it happens, it happens, no big deal. |
Actually NO... if a person benefits from having several friends consistantly voting 10's, then it is a big deal. The mere fact that something MAY be done does not legitimize that course of action. Thousands of people speed on our roads every day, but that does not make it OK... the laws are still in place to punish those that are caught, just as the rules can do here.
Ray |
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06/07/2007 04:03:57 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by idnic:
 |
Wow, a Bush supporter! ;)
running......
ducking......
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06/07/2007 03:51:52 PM · #17 |
OK, that too.
Hi JP!! :-) |
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06/07/2007 03:30:25 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Not having read the whole shebang in this here third instance of the Great Debate, I'd just like to point out that I will NOT vote down male nudes if well hung. |
Deb?!?!??!! |
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06/07/2007 03:27:42 PM · #19 |
Not having read the whole shebang in this here third instance of the Great Debate, I'd just like to point out that I will NOT vote down male nudes if well done.
Thank you. :-) |
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06/07/2007 03:13:05 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by LanceW:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Steve is a great guy and a valued member of this community, |
"WAS" a great guy. Perhaps some day he can earn his credibility back. |
Ouch. That sounds rather harsh.
I'm sure he is still a great guy. He's just a great guy who got a slap on the wrist for breaking rules he didn't fully understand in a game.
His action, to me, is the equivalent of getting an image DQ'd in a challenge. Serve the penalty, and get back in the game! He essentially self DQ'd himself, er, kinda.
His intentions were good.
His action broke the rules.
His penalty is just.
This is just a game.
That doesn't make him a bad person...It just means he broke a rule (a rule that he doesn't agree with).
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06/07/2007 03:03:17 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
My point I'm trying to get across is given all the variables in the voting process, it's statistically insignificant. Yes a single 10 vote may move a score .01 and it may be the differece between 1st and 2nd, but if one person's vote wasn't removed for voter fraud, or one person's vote wasn;t removed for not voting on enough photos or I wasn't so drunk while voting, or the troll didn't vote on your photo... |
Ok. I understand what you are saying. I may have glossed over that part in a previous post you made -- I was just merely looking at the effects of a single vote, just the numbers...not all of the human variables that may cause the decision to give a certain vote. |
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06/07/2007 02:39:39 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
And, considering it's insignificant and voting on any other stupid personal preferences (I hate photos with pink in them!) is perfectly okay, what's the point of turning the community upside down with a Salem style witch hunt to ban a few friend votes?
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You are once again throwing out baseless and fact less claims of "witch hunts" to which none is occurring. They are just trying to level the playing field as much as possible.
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Steve is a great guy and a valued member of this community, |
"WAS" a great guy. Perhaps some day he can earn his credibility back. |
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06/07/2007 02:38:58 PM · #23 |
| Note to self. dont enter with naked men, or any pink... its what the voters want... |
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06/07/2007 02:35:16 PM · #24 |
My point I'm trying to get across is given all the variables in the voting process, it's statistically insignificant. Yes a single 10 vote may move a score .01 and it may be the differece between 1st and 2nd, but if one person's vote wasn't removed for voter fraud, or one person's vote wasn;t removed for not voting on enough photos or I wasn't so drunk while voting, or the troll didn't vote on your photo...
And, considering it's insignificant and voting on any other stupid personal preferences (I hate photos with pink in them!) is perfectly okay, what's the point of turning the community upside down with a Salem style witch hunt to ban a few friend votes?
Steve is a great guy and a valued member of this community, now he's a witch and we're going to burn him. Why? Because he commited the horrible crime of giving someone he knew 10's. Get off your high horses, most decent people on this planet does the same basic thing every day (helping out or flattering a friend) and it's typically considered a good thing.
I'm going to save myself a lot of time and just stop here. Adios. |
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06/07/2007 02:10:26 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
For all the criticisms anyone may have of the DPC voting process, few if any dispute that we work hard to promote a level playing field, and give every photograph a fair chance to win on its own merits. I'm quite proud of that -- let's please keep it that way.
Thanks,
~Terry |
The MOST important point. That is what it is all about. Not only at DPC but any field of competition.
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