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DPChallenge Forums >> Photography Discussion >> Voting Practices (from friends voting thread)
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06/06/2007 05:43:24 PM · #1
I'm sorry SC I know you locked the 2nd "friends voting" steve thread but I had typed a response just as you did and I would like it to be heard. It is not redrudging up the old topic but more discussing a small point I saw. Please hear me out.

Steve mentioned that a starting photographer does NOT need a bad score, that he bumps the score to encourage them. And MANY....MMMANNYY people jumped aboard the "200 people aren't wrong, they deserve what they get, don't falsly boost their ego" train.

While I DO NOT agree with friends voting, I DO agree with the sentiment of taking more time to examine photos and realize the gems that will get burried in the world of DPC. 200 people CAN be wrong, and harsh. One bigger vote does not boost ego falsly but serves to COUNTERACT the huge shot to the ego that this site usually produces.

As I said, please don't take this as defending friends voting or that I friends vote. I don't. I just think it's time, esp with the falling scores with the start of the DPL to reexamine what scores "mean", how we vote, and what types of images do well and what don't.

I know this has been said before and mayne people just accept this and kind of mumble about it in silence. But if it upsets you, do something about it. Most of us have voting averages in the mide to high 5s, where as Steve's is in the 6s. That seems pretty harsh to me.

This site is about learning after all, and more and more I feel like it is being steered away from that.
06/06/2007 05:47:35 PM · #2
i agree with your point that many good shots lose out because their interest and beauty comes from longer than 3 seconds of looking. I have an image now in painting with light that is being murdered, JUST MURDERED, yet I have a prints request for it from a friend (non-dpc). She looked at it for a while. She liked the sublties. Its hard to see that in a quick vote. Which is why I said that voting isn't the best measure of a picture's worth or of the photographer's skill. Sure I'd like to learn, I just don't think the challenges are the best way for me to do so. I think getting comments is. So I enter in hopes of getting some comments. So far I have none. I am going to go do a bunch of commenting in hopes that good karma will come back to me.
06/06/2007 05:50:15 PM · #3
Originally posted by frisca:

i agree with your point that many good shots lose out because their interest and beauty comes from longer than 3 seconds of looking. I have an image now in painting with light that is being murdered, JUST MURDERED, yet I have a prints request for it from a friend (non-dpc). She looked at it for a while. She liked the sublties. Its hard to see that in a quick vote. Which is why I said that voting isn't the best measure of a picture's worth or of the photographer's skill. Sure I'd like to learn, I just don't think the challenges are the best way for me to do so. I think getting comments is. So I enter in hopes of getting some comments. So far I have none. I am going to go do a bunch of commenting in hopes that good karma will come back to me.


Which also brings up another couple interesting (at least to me) points.

(1) There's a huge difference between a good print and the little images we submit to challenges.

(2) Just because a picture is made for a challenge topic and fits the topic and somehow connects and gets a high score, it doesn't make it necessarily a picture anyone would want to hang on their wall and maybe pass on to their children as a treasure.
06/06/2007 05:54:53 PM · #4
My official recommendation to you is that unless you are prepared to be suspended because you might have a legitimate question that you want answerered, disagree with authority or agree with anything I might say then steer away from this type of discussion all together.
06/06/2007 05:55:21 PM · #5
Originally posted by frisca:

i agree with your point that many good shots lose out because their interest and beauty comes from longer than 3 seconds of looking. I have an image now in painting with light that is being murdered, JUST MURDERED, yet I have a prints request for it from a friend (non-dpc). She looked at it for a while. She liked the sublties. Its hard to see that in a quick vote. Which is why I said that voting isn't the best measure of a picture's worth or of the photographer's skill. Sure I'd like to learn, I just don't think the challenges are the best way for me to do so. I think getting comments is. So I enter in hopes of getting some comments. So far I have none. I am going to go do a bunch of commenting in hopes that good karma will come back to me.


we are both in the murdered boat together then. lol.

another thing, comments are so much ONLY on the technicals. I want to know more than that. Half the time I can point out the technicals myself, but I can't tell how someone else will react to my photo.
06/06/2007 05:57:34 PM · #6
Often, when people react to your photos, they are seen as crap comments since they are not telling you what you should have done. A lot of people post saying that.
06/06/2007 05:57:54 PM · #7
Originally posted by stdavidson:

My official recommendation to you is that unless you are prepared to be suspended because you might have a legitimate question that you want answerered, disagree with authority or agree with anything I might say then steer away from this type of discussion all together.


lol. I found your whole thing quite amusing, sorry to say. I am not scared of disagreeing with authority but that is not the point of this. Like I said, I agreed with you on some points but really, as many others said, why is it fair that only your friends get the "bump" when there are a LOT of underrated photogs out there.

My message... spread the love! lol. We could all use a little chilling out being voting nazis IMO.
06/06/2007 05:58:28 PM · #8
Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by frisca:

i agree with your point that many good shots lose out because their interest and beauty comes from longer than 3 seconds of looking. I have an image now in painting with light that is being murdered, JUST MURDERED, yet I have a prints request for it from a friend (non-dpc). She looked at it for a while. She liked the sublties. Its hard to see that in a quick vote. Which is why I said that voting isn't the best measure of a picture's worth or of the photographer's skill. Sure I'd like to learn, I just don't think the challenges are the best way for me to do so. I think getting comments is. So I enter in hopes of getting some comments. So far I have none. I am going to go do a bunch of commenting in hopes that good karma will come back to me.


we are both in the murdered boat together then. lol.

another thing, comments are so much ONLY on the technicals. I want to know more than that. Half the time I can point out the technicals myself, but I can't tell how someone else will react to my photo.


There has been quite a movement towards reactionary commenting lately. Talk to Posthumous about it.

I think a great comment encompass it all.. reaction, technicals, feelings, suggestions, and everything in between... as long as it's handled rationally and without personal attack.
06/06/2007 05:58:50 PM · #9
Originally posted by xion:

Often, when people react to your photos, they are seen as crap comments since they are not telling you what you should have done. A lot of people post saying that.


lol. yea. i try to do both in my comments. solves the problem on both sides. I really try to say something nice and then something nitpicky or constructive.
06/06/2007 05:59:44 PM · #10
Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by frisca:

i agree with your point that many good shots lose out because their interest and beauty comes from longer than 3 seconds of looking. I have an image now in painting with light that is being murdered, JUST MURDERED, yet I have a prints request for it from a friend (non-dpc). She looked at it for a while. She liked the sublties. Its hard to see that in a quick vote. Which is why I said that voting isn't the best measure of a picture's worth or of the photographer's skill. Sure I'd like to learn, I just don't think the challenges are the best way for me to do so. I think getting comments is. So I enter in hopes of getting some comments. So far I have none. I am going to go do a bunch of commenting in hopes that good karma will come back to me.


we are both in the murdered boat together then. lol.

another thing, comments are so much ONLY on the technicals. I want to know more than that. Half the time I can point out the technicals myself, but I can't tell how someone else will react to my photo.


There has been quite a movement towards reactionary commenting lately. Talk to Posthumous about it.

I think a great comment encompass it all.. reaction, technicals, feelings, suggestions, and everything in between... as long as it's handled rationally and without personal attack.


Yes I agree. Posthumous and I have talked. ;) we just had a little discussion over a misunderstanding. We both learned from it, it was good!
06/06/2007 06:01:31 PM · #11
Originally posted by stdavidson:

My official recommendation to you is that unless you are prepared to be suspended because you might have a legitimate question that you want answerered, disagree with authority or agree with anything I might say then steer away from this type of discussion all together.


this makes NO sense whatsoever and is wholly unsupported by fact or anything that has happened to you or anyone else.
06/06/2007 06:03:00 PM · #12
Steve - Your suggestion some time ago about voting ratings, and a recent post of a winner of a National Geographic photo contest (with a photo that didn't garner much more than a 6 on DPC) has changed mine and several other voters approaches on DPC.

I would argue (as Steve did) that rating photos could be based more on a school like grading system:
10 - A+ (perfect image with no real room for improvement)
9 - A
8 - B
7 - C
6 - D
5 and lower various shades of failure)

could be a new and legitimate rating system that voters may choose to use.

Historically, we have all tended to vote to the mid point (5.3 to 5.5 as a typical average for a challenge), but it is my personal opinion that many, many photos on this site are outstanding and should be rated as such. Simply rating a really solid image a 6 because is it a little less awesome as another that a photo that won with a final score of a 7 really doens't make sense to me.

I think what has happended is that many people see winning photos with a score of 7.2 and figure that an image with that quality should be given that score. This does not necessarily follow. We need to remember that people have differnet opinions and need to vote according to those opinions. Therefore, by combining all scores from a challenge, the final value will be lower than anyone individual score. Giving an individual photo a 10 doesn't mean it is better than a photo that won a challenge with a composite score of 8.1, but means that you think it is fantastic and at the top from a technical, emotive, and challenge meeting perspective.

Message edited by author 2007-06-06 18:09:10.
06/06/2007 06:06:04 PM · #13
Originally posted by escapetooz:


My message... spread the love! lol. We could all use a little chilling out being voting nazis IMO.


See, this is where it become worrisome. If, as a photographer, you are using DPC's *voting* and your score, as a gauge on how good you are as a photographer, outside of anything *BUT* DPC, you are already on a self-destructive, dead-end path.

I agree with the sentiment that people need to chill out, but I think it's less about voting than it is about getting ourselves out of this gigantic seriousness hole we've dug for ourselves on this site that make challenges out to be more than they are. What love is there to be spread? On one hand, you advocate wanting more honest and constructive comments.. then it almost seems as if you want people to vote consistently higher just to make people feel better? It doesn't seem to mesh.

The trouble is getting more people to actually *say* something about the photos on this site.. but as a dear friend of mine just said to me:

DPC was a nice little town that has grown into a big dirty city.

Wherein lies the problem. It's huge, there are so many images, and getting people to do anything but OOO and AHH over the top scorers is a task for the ages.

06/06/2007 06:16:14 PM · #14
Initial Impact is basically whats being voted on since there's so many entries. DPC is popular, and unless you set aside chunks of time each day or one huge chunk of time to vote on every image, people are going to only base their vote on the initial impact.

Here's a few ideas off the top of my head. (And I realize i'm new, so feel free to laugh at them all lol)

Double the amount of challenges each week. Instead of 3 (FS still per month) run 6, but limit it so that you can only enter 3 of them max. Also eliminate the ability to vote on challenges where your image is entered. This can be applied for DPL, and assign teams to challenges (can rotate the challenges so the challenges stay the same for 2 weeks, but you're entering the other 3 the following week) The teams would be voting on the opposite categories and thus reducing the amount of voting they have to do.

For example - For the 3 challenges getting voted on now, you've got 921 submissions to vote on, not including the FS. Split that in half and you've got 460.5 images to vote on with the seperation. Maybe only being allowed to vote on a smaller amount of images would entice people to spend a little more time looking at each image and commenting? Sure there's still going to be trolls, but When i click the challenge and see 7 pages of images to vote thru, its a little daunting at first.

Maybe its not the point that DPC is getting away from the instructional and helpful manor that the site is known for, but the fact that its grown so much that its impossible to seem helpful and try to teach each and every person that comes here. I'm not even saying my idea would work lol, but maybe something along these lines to give more incentive to help and give advice. Of course comments would be open after the challenge was over.

Message edited by author 2007-06-06 18:18:16.
06/06/2007 06:54:13 PM · #15
It is such a pity site and sight to see a place wherein you cannot even vote or support your own friends, boyfriend/girlfriend, family members, etc. If this isnít a popularity photography site, then why is this even open to public voting?

Pardon me for using another site as an example, say jpgmag.com. That site gives away free 1 year subscription and $100 on top of the fame of getting ones work published in a magazine (website) that is internationally released? Do you all think that JPG mag condemned friendsí voting? I donít think they do at all.

What do winners from dpchallenge.com get aside from one-week of being exposed in the main page? Isnít it popularity and recognition if you win enough, right?

I read stdavidsonís earlier posts and I might not even know him, I think he has valid points that were unheard because a lot of people judged that he was (or is) being unfair by giving his honest confession.

Anyway, I do not mean to provoke the site councils at all. I just want to give my 2 cents. PEACE!
06/06/2007 06:57:50 PM · #16
Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by escapetooz:


My message... spread the love! lol. We could all use a little chilling out being voting nazis IMO.


See, this is where it become worrisome. If, as a photographer, you are using DPC's *voting* and your score, as a gauge on how good you are as a photographer, outside of anything *BUT* DPC, you are already on a self-destructive, dead-end path.

I agree with the sentiment that people need to chill out, but I think it's less about voting than it is about getting ourselves out of this gigantic seriousness hole we've dug for ourselves on this site that make challenges out to be more than they are. What love is there to be spread? On one hand, you advocate wanting more honest and constructive comments.. then it almost seems as if you want people to vote consistently higher just to make people feel better? It doesn't seem to mesh.

The trouble is getting more people to actually *say* something about the photos on this site.. but as a dear friend of mine just said to me:

DPC was a nice little town that has grown into a big dirty city.

Wherein lies the problem. It's huge, there are so many images, and getting people to do anything but OOO and AHH over the top scorers is a task for the ages.


I agree with you. But I think you misunderstand. I don't meant to boost to make people feel better, I mean to realize as a whole this site is really harsh and that we could all ease up a bit on how critical we are. I always nitpick in my comments but the score is generally unchanged by those nitpicks. See what I mean? Give the score it deserves and then comment according to what went right and what went wrong.
06/06/2007 06:58:11 PM · #17
Originally posted by pccjrose:

Steve - Your suggestion some time ago about voting ratings, and a recent post of a winner of a National Geographic photo contest (with a photo that didn't garner much more than a 6 on DPC) has changed mine and several other voters approaches on DPC.

I would argue (as Steve did) that rating photos could be based more on a school like grading system:
10 - A+ (perfect image with no real room for improvement)
9 - A
8 - B
7 - C
6 - D
5 and lower various shades of failure)

could be a new and legitimate rating system that voters may choose to use.

Historically, we have all tended to vote to the mid point (5.3 to 5.5 as a typical average for a challenge), but it is my personal opinion that many, many photos on this site are outstanding and should be rated as such. Simply rating a really solid image a 6 because is it a little less awesome as another that a photo that won with a final score of a 7 really doens't make sense to me.

I think what has happended is that many people see winning photos with a score of 7.2 and figure that an image with that quality should be given that score. This does not necessarily follow. We need to remember that people have differnet opinions and need to vote according to those opinions. Therefore, by combining all scores from a challenge, the final value will be lower than anyone individual score. Giving an individual photo a 10 doesn't mean it is better than a photo that won a challenge with a composite score of 8.1, but means that you think it is fantastic and at the top from a technical, emotive, and challenge meeting perspective.


Thank you for that. I really like that scale!
06/06/2007 07:00:11 PM · #18
Originally posted by escapetooz:


Thank you for that. I really like that scale!


Now we just a few hundred more people to use it and we will get somewhere!

Message edited by author 2007-06-06 19:00:22.
06/06/2007 07:00:46 PM · #19
Originally posted by MonicaJames:

It is such a pity site and sight to see a place wherein you cannot even vote or support your own friends, boyfriend/girlfriend, family members, etc. If this isnít a popularity photography site, then why is this even open to public voting?

Pardon me for using another site as an example, say jpgmag.com. That site gives away free 1 year subscription and $100 on top of the fame of getting ones work published in a magazine (website) that is internationally released? Do you all think that JPG mag condemned friendsí voting? I donít think they do at all.

What do winners from dpchallenge.com get aside from one-week of being exposed in the main page? Isnít it popularity and recognition if you win enough, right?

I read stdavidsonís earlier posts and I might not even know him, I think he has valid points that were unheard because a lot of people judged that he was (or is) being unfair by giving his honest confession.

Anyway, I do not mean to provoke the site councils at all. I just want to give my 2 cents. PEACE!


The point here is that DPC is *NOT* like all the other sites on the net.
There is a long-standing and honored tradition here of anonymous, objective, and un-biased voting. It is a standard the majority of people wish to adhere to.

If, what you truly wish, is for your work to simply be pumped up and artificially honored through means of popularity, family and friend voting, and other things of the nature, I would highly suggest joining the websites you talk about instead.
06/06/2007 07:01:42 PM · #20
Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by escapetooz:


My message... spread the love! lol. We could all use a little chilling out being voting nazis IMO.


See, this is where it become worrisome. If, as a photographer, you are using DPC's *voting* and your score, as a gauge on how good you are as a photographer, outside of anything *BUT* DPC, you are already on a self-destructive, dead-end path.

I agree with the sentiment that people need to chill out, but I think it's less about voting than it is about getting ourselves out of this gigantic seriousness hole we've dug for ourselves on this site that make challenges out to be more than they are. What love is there to be spread? On one hand, you advocate wanting more honest and constructive comments.. then it almost seems as if you want people to vote consistently higher just to make people feel better? It doesn't seem to mesh.

The trouble is getting more people to actually *say* something about the photos on this site.. but as a dear friend of mine just said to me:

DPC was a nice little town that has grown into a big dirty city.

Wherein lies the problem. It's huge, there are so many images, and getting people to do anything but OOO and AHH over the top scorers is a task for the ages.


I agree with you. But I think you misunderstand. I don't meant to boost to make people feel better, I mean to realize as a whole this site is really harsh and that we could all ease up a bit on how critical we are. I always nitpick in my comments but the score is generally unchanged by those nitpicks. See what I mean? Give the score it deserves and then comment according to what went right and what went wrong.


I believe the majority of people *do* do this as it stands.

I have yet to see such an anomaly in challenge results to suggest otherwise.
06/06/2007 07:07:47 PM · #21
Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by escapetooz:


My message... spread the love! lol. We could all use a little chilling out being voting nazis IMO.


See, this is where it become worrisome. If, as a photographer, you are using DPC's *voting* and your score, as a gauge on how good you are as a photographer, outside of anything *BUT* DPC, you are already on a self-destructive, dead-end path.

I agree with the sentiment that people need to chill out, but I think it's less about voting than it is about getting ourselves out of this gigantic seriousness hole we've dug for ourselves on this site that make challenges out to be more than they are. What love is there to be spread? On one hand, you advocate wanting more honest and constructive comments.. then it almost seems as if you want people to vote consistently higher just to make people feel better? It doesn't seem to mesh.

The trouble is getting more people to actually *say* something about the photos on this site.. but as a dear friend of mine just said to me:

DPC was a nice little town that has grown into a big dirty city.

Wherein lies the problem. It's huge, there are so many images, and getting people to do anything but OOO and AHH over the top scorers is a task for the ages.


I agree with you. But I think you misunderstand. I don't meant to boost to make people feel better, I mean to realize as a whole this site is really harsh and that we could all ease up a bit on how critical we are. I always nitpick in my comments but the score is generally unchanged by those nitpicks. See what I mean? Give the score it deserves and then comment according to what went right and what went wrong.


I believe the majority of people *do* do this as it stands.

I have yet to see such an anomaly in challenge results to suggest otherwise.


I have to disagree. The thought that every photo ends up where it should in the grand scheme of things is really wrong. There are MANY photos that end up in the top 10 that probably shouldn't and many that end up in the 5s that are remarkable.

My own ribbon image certainly isn't my best or even my favorite. Most of my favorites have scored 5s. ANd I don't think I'm alone here.
06/06/2007 07:08:34 PM · #22
Originally posted by Artyste:

I would highly suggest joining the websites you talk about instead.


And that I already did. ^_^
Thank you for the reply.
06/06/2007 07:12:39 PM · #23
Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by escapetooz:


My message... spread the love! lol. We could all use a little chilling out being voting nazis IMO.


See, this is where it become worrisome. If, as a photographer, you are using DPC's *voting* and your score, as a gauge on how good you are as a photographer, outside of anything *BUT* DPC, you are already on a self-destructive, dead-end path.

I agree with the sentiment that people need to chill out, but I think it's less about voting than it is about getting ourselves out of this gigantic seriousness hole we've dug for ourselves on this site that make challenges out to be more than they are. What love is there to be spread? On one hand, you advocate wanting more honest and constructive comments.. then it almost seems as if you want people to vote consistently higher just to make people feel better? It doesn't seem to mesh.

The trouble is getting more people to actually *say* something about the photos on this site.. but as a dear friend of mine just said to me:

DPC was a nice little town that has grown into a big dirty city.

Wherein lies the problem. It's huge, there are so many images, and getting people to do anything but OOO and AHH over the top scorers is a task for the ages.


I agree with you. But I think you misunderstand. I don't meant to boost to make people feel better, I mean to realize as a whole this site is really harsh and that we could all ease up a bit on how critical we are. I always nitpick in my comments but the score is generally unchanged by those nitpicks. See what I mean? Give the score it deserves and then comment according to what went right and what went wrong.


I believe the majority of people *do* do this as it stands.

I have yet to see such an anomaly in challenge results to suggest otherwise.


I have to disagree. The thought that every photo ends up where it should in the grand scheme of things is really wrong. There are MANY photos that end up in the top 10 that probably shouldn't and many that end up in the 5s that are remarkable.

My own ribbon image certainly isn't my best or even my favorite. Most of my favorites have scored 5s. ANd I don't think I'm alone here.


What you don't seem to understand is that voting will always be in the context of the users of the site. Challenge placements will always reflect this. Photos *you* don't believe deserve their placements is a highly individual aspect. A photo you think should be a top 10, I might think is a bottom 20.

You see what I mean? What you think you want is some 60's revolution grass-roots movement designed to topple the status quo... but what you really want is everyone else to think like you do :)

We all, deep down, want that.

It ain't happenin.
06/06/2007 07:13:39 PM · #24
I'm going to start using that voting scale provided. I went back and started bumping and I already feel better about my scoring. For all my talk about how we are harsh I could not get away from it myself and now this is a good way. Judge the photo for itself and it's merits and not in comparisson with the rest of the images in the challenge. It's so simple yet it escaped me and so many otheres.

I think more should join in... Any takers?
06/06/2007 07:15:43 PM · #25
Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by escapetooz:


My message... spread the love! lol. We could all use a little chilling out being voting nazis IMO.


See, this is where it become worrisome. If, as a photographer, you are using DPC's *voting* and your score, as a gauge on how good you are as a photographer, outside of anything *BUT* DPC, you are already on a self-destructive, dead-end path.

I agree with the sentiment that people need to chill out, but I think it's less about voting than it is about getting ourselves out of this gigantic seriousness hole we've dug for ourselves on this site that make challenges out to be more than they are. What love is there to be spread? On one hand, you advocate wanting more honest and constructive comments.. then it almost seems as if you want people to vote consistently higher just to make people feel better? It doesn't seem to mesh.

The trouble is getting more people to actually *say* something about the photos on this site.. but as a dear friend of mine just said to me:

DPC was a nice little town that has grown into a big dirty city.

Wherein lies the problem. It's huge, there are so many images, and getting people to do anything but OOO and AHH over the top scorers is a task for the ages.


I agree with you. But I think you misunderstand. I don't meant to boost to make people feel better, I mean to realize as a whole this site is really harsh and that we could all ease up a bit on how critical we are. I always nitpick in my comments but the score is generally unchanged by those nitpicks. See what I mean? Give the score it deserves and then comment according to what went right and what went wrong.


I believe the majority of people *do* do this as it stands.

I have yet to see such an anomaly in challenge results to suggest otherwise.


I have to disagree. The thought that every photo ends up where it should in the grand scheme of things is really wrong. There are MANY photos that end up in the top 10 that probably shouldn't and many that end up in the 5s that are remarkable.

My own ribbon image certainly isn't my best or even my favorite. Most of my favorites have scored 5s. ANd I don't think I'm alone here.


What you don't seem to understand is that voting will always be in the context of the users of the site. Challenge placements will always reflect this. Photos *you* don't believe deserve their placements is a highly individual aspect. A photo you think should be a top 10, I might think is a bottom 20.

You see what I mean? What you think you want is some 60's revolution grass-roots movement designed to topple the status quo... but what you really want is everyone else to think like you do :)

We all, deep down, want that.

It ain't happenin.


Yikes. Whatever you want to think. OBVIOUSLY we all have our own individual outlooks. What I think is happening is that is being squashed by the norms on this site and voting well on what's familiar. Take a look at that voting scale that was posted. I think that was what I've been looking for. Not some 60s down with the establishment revolution. Just a simple appreciation of art, that is what we are supposed to be doing when we vote isn't it?
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