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11/06/2003 12:17:52 PM · #51 |
Perhaps Ornis needs a private message to be made aware of all the posts and wishes that he would stay in dpc... while GeneralE has cleared up the misunderstanding about the rules that "we do not prohibit "post-processing" of photos, just certain techniques", I don't think he would be back to read that after his last posting...
I think we all agree that he is definitely not a cheater, which is evident from the photographer's comments/details, and definitely someone who can contribute much to the site.... It is just a misunderstanding afterall... (don't mean that the DQ should be lifted....rules are rules afterall)
Just in case Ornis read this, please respond.... |
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11/06/2003 12:26:45 PM · #52 |
no, it's not directly under the control of the SC.
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
Please stay, and help us in our quest to get the rules shifted so that in the future, pics like yours don't get DQ'd, and the quality of imagery on the site as a whole goes up. |
Isn't that really just up to the site council to make it happen ? |
Message edited by author 2003-11-06 12:28:40.
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11/06/2003 12:35:33 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
no, it's not directly under the control of the SC.
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I guess it depends on the 'needs of the community' given that the sc is supposed to ensure that the site best meets those needs. |
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11/06/2003 12:40:26 PM · #54 |
| There could just be a vote of all members to even see if it's even worth pursuing. The people who want the rules changed could be in the minority. |
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11/06/2003 12:41:50 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by MeThoS:
There could just be a vote of all members to even see if it's even worth pursuing. The people who want the rules changed could be in the minority. |
The last vote was a 3 way tie, making everyone believe that they were in the majority, depending on how you added up the numbers. A very politically correct result in many respects. What would be interesting to understand is how many people are currently turned off by the restrictive rules, vs. how many people would dislike less restrictive rules that promoted good photography.
Unfortunately the discussion dissappears into a lot of noise about digital art (which has nothing to do with it ), composite images like the frog in another thread (again, quite cool, but not much to do with photography in the final version) and debates about the cost of photoshop (another completely bogus discussion, given the number of free and budget products available) There also seem to be a vocal minority that feel that just because more tools are allowed, that they have to use them all, every time - which again I don't quite understand.
Another strawman that gets thrown up is that having restrictive tools forces you to be better in camera - this is absolutely correct. However to produce truely good photographs, you still have to get it as correct as possible in camera, then make it even better after the fact. Limiting people to half the proces may force them to get better at that first half, but stops them becoming well rounded photographers and limits the heights that submissions can reach on this site.
There are also a lot of people that seem to think this is an educational site, and that the bar should be kept low to make things beginner friendly. I understand that - having really good photographers entering here would make the competition harder - some suggestions of beginner challenges have been made, with many taking offence to the suggestion that they shouldn't already be considered professional quality photographers.
Message edited by author 2003-11-06 12:51:24. |
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11/06/2003 12:53:19 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
MeThoS
"I use photography as ONE step in creating artwork. The idea is to present the best photograph you can. How you get there is up to you..."
If you are using photography to create art, then the end product is not a photograph, it is an artwork. Maybe you skipped the name of the site, as well as the rules, in your haste. Why don't you take a shot at the challenges, staying within the rules, and show us what you can do as a digital photographer. And we will understand if your entry has a few small imperfections, such as leaves floating on water. We are used to seeing straight pictures and can take such things into consideration in scoring challenges entries. |
My mentor ( who is a world renowned photographer) once told me the main difference between an amateur photographer and a professional photographer is presentation. The amateur will show you the whole roll of film with a couple of good ones in there, but mostly second and third rate shots. The professional will just show you the one that is great.
When I show someone a photograph that has my name next to it, it has to have a WOW factor. I pay attention to details. That means dust spotting, removing things that detract the eye, sharpening, color, contrast, saturation, dodging and burning.
Have you ever heard the stories about Ansel. The difference between his raw print and HIS print after he got done with it are tremendous. But I guess his photos don't count as REAL photos, just artwork... |
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11/06/2003 01:51:19 PM · #57 |
Ansel was the man. A friend of mine, that participates on this web site as well, and I agree that if you were to make a print from a negative, doge and burn, and spot tone it to achieve what your original idea was, then it should be allowed. I don't feel that all out manipulation such as joining many images or stamping in a third eye, things of that nature, should be allowed. But hey, what do I know. The rules are the rules.
Message edited by author 2003-11-06 13:52:09. |
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11/06/2003 02:03:55 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by G4Ds:
Ansel was the man. A friend of mine, that participates on this web site as well, and I agree that if you were to make a print from a negative, doge and burn, and spot tone it to achieve what your original idea was, then it should be allowed. I don't feel that all out manipulation such as joining many images or stamping in a third eye, things of that nature, should be allowed. But hey, what do I know. The rules are the rules. |
I agree. But if a person wants to take advantage of an increased tonal range by taking multiple shots and layering them in to acheive it, then they should. The beauty of digital is not being forced to keep your shots to a 5 stop range (velvia) or a 6-7 stop range (color and B&W neg). But again, I'm sure I could enter a shot that I've retouched heavily and not have it be noticable. That's the point. Plus I'm honest... |
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11/06/2003 02:12:50 PM · #59 |
I can see what you mean Me ThoS. That way the exposure looks right throughout the whole image. I mostly meant that if someone made an image up that had, let's say people from five different images that were never in the original. Then you are not making one image work but making a collage. That was all I ment by multple images. By the way, I respect you (and your mentor, whomever he may be, just going off what he told you.) Hell, anyone that uses the Ds is got to be a great photographer that only wants to use the best equipment :)
P.S. I like the work in your portfolio.
Message edited by author 2003-11-06 14:13:38. |
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11/06/2003 02:17:02 PM · #60 |
It seems to be that people who have reached the limits with what comes out of the camera and want to take their quality to another level are the ones that want some more flexibility in the rules.
Those that argue against any changes are more often then not people who are still on Digital Photography 101, and are still ecstatic that they 'took a picture without film, ma!'
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11/06/2003 02:18:46 PM · #61 |
Nothing against MeThoS, my comment is a general one:
Never judge a person's talent or lack thereof by the equipment they use. The only thing you can possibly judge from looking at that may be the size of their wallet.
Originally posted by G4Ds:
Hell, anyone that uses the Ds is got to be a great photographer that only wants to use the best equipment :) |
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11/06/2003 02:21:22 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
It seems to be that people who have reached the limits with what comes out of the camera and want to take their quality to another level are the ones that want some more flexibility in the rules.
Those that argue against any changes are more often then not people who are still on Digital Photography 101, and are still ecstatic that they 'took a picture without film, ma!' |
Very true Mag. There is a whole generation of people who havent shot anything but point and shoot cams ( film and digi ) that have come to accept the end result that " this is as good as it gets". The real excitement begins when they see what can be accomplished when they take control of the camera/software/darkroom/etc.
Message edited by author 2003-11-06 14:22:11.
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11/06/2003 02:25:39 PM · #63 |
That was just a joke about the camera equipment. I do still respect
Me ThoS, but it is not because of his equipment. I know many great photographers that used very poor equipment for years and still produced great images. |
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11/06/2003 02:27:42 PM · #64 |
I for one will be saddened if ornis goes because that picture of the swans was very good indeed. He clearly has a contribution to make to this community.
When I first read the rules I found the "qualification" of what was allowed versus what was not confusing. IMO I believe the rules and their interpretation needs a more practical listing - yes listing. I found the description of what I could use buried in text and there appeared to be contradictions or at least a little vagueness and ambiguity.
So, please make the allowed "tools" a straight forward list and equally the non-allowed "tools" a list so that it is blindingly obvious to the likes of mere mortals like me. And if these tools are third party software e.g. NeatImage then list specifically which are acceptable. When I joined I mailed and asked about DCE tools because my reading was that they fell into the same catagory but I was unsure because of the potential ambiguous nature of the rules details.
I surmise that with two lists there will be scope for "methods" that fall into neither camp that could be utilised to good effect.
Perhaps more challengingly we need two types of Challenge - the current type and one where anything goes BUT at the vote point the methods used are stated so that the picture is judged in relation to the digital darkroom expertise used. This would also create a learning/teaching resource. On that note we are encouraged (I think?) to get approval of our images for adding to DPCPrints - these images can be enhanced for print purposes and are therefore potentially unlike the challenge entries.
Just my slightly greater than 2p's worth to this thread.
Message edited by author 2003-11-06 14:29:02. |
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11/06/2003 02:28:09 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
It seems to be that people who have reached the limits with what comes out of the camera and want to take their quality to another level are the ones that want some more flexibility in the rules. |
What's stopping them from doing that now? There's nothing that says they can't improve the photo after the challenge is over with whatever spot editing means they want to use.
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11/06/2003 02:45:38 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
Nothing against MeThoS, my comment is a general one:
Never judge a person's talent or lack thereof by the equipment they use. The only thing you can possibly judge from looking at that may be the size of their wallet.
Originally posted by G4Ds:
Hell, anyone that uses the Ds is got to be a great photographer that only wants to use the best equipment :) |
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Good point! Many a doctor has a great camera system. |
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11/06/2003 02:51:05 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by vonautsch:
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
It seems to be that people who have reached the limits with what comes out of the camera and want to take their quality to another level are the ones that want some more flexibility in the rules. |
What's stopping them from doing that now? There's nothing that says they can't improve the photo after the challenge is over with whatever spot editing means they want to use. |
I realize I can edit my images for my personal use, duh! I think the topic at hand is editing for the challenges. ;D |
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11/06/2003 02:51:41 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by vonautsch:
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
It seems to be that people who have reached the limits with what comes out of the camera and want to take their quality to another level are the ones that want some more flexibility in the rules. |
What's stopping them from doing that now? There's nothing that says they can't improve the photo after the challenge is over with whatever spot editing means they want to use. |
This gets thrown out a lot too. What I never get is why people think it is a good thing to vote and evaluate the quality of a picture based on a half-finished product ?
In fact this view, that 'it can be finished later' simply re-enforces the idea that dpc isn't about good photography, its about good image capture, which is about half of what photography is -really- about.
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11/06/2003 02:53:01 PM · #69 |
That's like suggesting you professionally master a recording after the album has been released. If the pics are done FOR THIS SITE'S CHALLENGES, then it makes sense to make them the best they could be for the challenge.
And clearly, as Ornis' shot shows, a pic can be lightly spot edited and not turn into a photoshop nightmare.
Originally posted by vonautsch:
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
It seems to be that people who have reached the limits with what comes out of the camera and want to take their quality to another level are the ones that want some more flexibility in the rules. |
What's stopping them from doing that now? There's nothing that says they can't improve the photo after the challenge is over with whatever spot editing means they want to use. |
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11/06/2003 03:24:45 PM · #70 |
I disagree -- I think this is more like playing your demo for the A&R guy to see if you get the recording contract.
If we were only interested in presenting the best possible, finished product, we wouldn't have a time (or topic) restriction either. If you only want to see my "professional-quality" finished photos you better run a sunset or photojournalism challenge every week, 'cause that's about all I seem to be really "good" at.
Oh, I'm in favor of "relaxed" editing rules too.
Message edited by author 2003-11-06 15:25:33. |
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11/06/2003 03:28:24 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I disagree -- I think this is more like playing your demo for the A&R guy to see if you get the recording contract.
If we were only interested in presenting the best possible, finished product, we wouldn't have a time (or topic) restriction either. If you only want to see my "professional-quality" finished photos you better run a sunset or photojournalism challenge every week, 'cause that's about all I seem to be really "good" at.
Oh, I'm in favor of "relaxed" editing rules too. |
So you don't think its about entering your best possible picture, for a particular challenge, within the time frame ? |
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11/06/2003 03:40:25 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I disagree -- I think this is more like playing your demo for the A&R guy to see if you get the recording contract.
If we were only interested in presenting the best possible, finished product, we wouldn't have a time (or topic) restriction either. If you only want to see my "professional-quality" finished photos you better run a sunset or photojournalism challenge every week, 'cause that's about all I seem to be really "good" at.
Oh, I'm in favor of "relaxed" editing rules too. |
Then they should just change the scope of the site to a critique. How about www.DPcritique.com ?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a challenge where ribbons are handed out is about putting your best foot foward. It would be like taking your cow a year early to the fair and telling them they should give you a blue ribbon, BECAUSE after the contest it will turn into a much better cow. LOL!
Telling people that they can finish their photo AFTER the competition is kind of insane. Unless there is going to be another round where you can enter the same challenge with the completed photo. |
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11/06/2003 03:56:32 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
So you don't think its about entering your best possible picture, for a particular challenge, within the time frame ? |
I'm tired of having my best effort within the time frame called off-topic and a waste of time.
I find such statements rude, pretentious, elitist, and a bunch of other pejoratives I'm loathe to associate with a "community" of people helping each other gain expertise in a common activity.
How do these "experts" know this ISN'T someone's very best effort? We are an open site. If all the "best" photographers want to take their cameras and go start a private photography club, well bless 'em. But that's not why I see as the ultimate of DPC, and resent people trying to hijack the site to suit their own, narrower purposes.
I'm absolutely fine with having the rules changed (for at least some challenges) to allow improved photo-realistic images, and have been since that last survey. I'm not in favor of the attitudes I've seen lately about establishing a "quality threshold" below which someone thinks entries should be prohibited.
My current entry has a "thoughtful" comment listing one dictionary definition of the current topic ... as I assured the person: "if my interpretation fails to fulfill YOUR expectations it is not due to any ignorance of the English language." A comment about the photo might be have been helpful though.
If someone has a constructive suggestion to offer I'm more than happy to listen (and even try and implement it!), except apparently submitting it here for cogent commentary is a waste of my time ... |
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11/06/2003 04:38:19 PM · #74 |
I'm equally as tired of hearing the 'elitist' and 'for one's own purposes' bs. That's not what it's about. It's about allowing those who have higher aspirations to realize them here on DPC.
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11/06/2003 04:43:27 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I'm equally as tired of hearing the 'elitist' and 'for one's own purposes' bs. That's not what it's about. It's about allowing those who have higher aspirations to realize them here on DPC. |
Those terms as I use them have nothing to do with anyone's own aspirations ... it's about the apparent desire of some (not you) to crush the aspirations of those considered less talented and unworthy ... |
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