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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> What is happening, again a DQ ?
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11/05/2003 12:58:18 PM · #26
Personally I like the restrictions. Because of the restrictions, I get forced into achieving maximum results just playing around with the setup, with the lights, with the camera. And that is the fun part for me.

I don't mind spending hours on an image, trying to get it right, even though the effect could have been achieved in PS in seconds.

PS just does not give me the same sense of achievement.

And yes, I know, I could (and would) still do that, even if the rules allow full editing.
11/05/2003 01:00:06 PM · #27
I don't think the rule is idotic. What is idotic to me is that people can't just accept that this is a site where we compete without spot editing our shots. That is not to say that our photos are better or worse than spot edited ones. Too bad you missed the Halloween challenge MeThoS, would have been nice to see some of your artistry in a challenge.
11/05/2003 01:15:06 PM · #28
Originally posted by MeThoS:

I'm an artist. I hate restrictions that impare my creativity. I'm not a photojournalist, but if I were, I'd still remove dust spots! That's why this rule is so idiotic. All I'm saying is that there should always be at least one member challenge that allows spot editing...



...or you could just go somewhere else where they have rules that will allow you to be an artist.
11/05/2003 01:22:57 PM · #29
Originally posted by coolhar:

I don't think the rule is idotic. What is idotic to me is that people can't just accept that this is a site where we compete without spot editing our shots. That is not to say that our photos are better or worse than spot edited ones. Too bad you missed the Halloween challenge MeThoS, would have been nice to see some of your artistry in a challenge.


Yeah, I actually would of liked that one. The truth is I already shoot 60 hours a week under guidelines. I don't need to have the same restrictions when I shoot for "fun"... ;D
11/05/2003 01:24:34 PM · #30
For me, the only aspect of the rules I don't like is it doesn't allow you to get rid of dust and things of that nature. I do like that it makes people have to figure out ways to light subjects or set up the composition so that it works straight from the camera. I like that it makes for straight forward shots with no major altercations, but I don't see the harm in getting rid of little spots that you didn't even know were there until it was on your computer screen.
11/05/2003 01:29:50 PM · #31
i'm much better at ps than i am at photography at this point in time. but i didn't come here and plunk down my $25 to show everyone here how good i am. i came here to learn how to get better. the current rules force me not to depend so much on my ability to tweak and touch up in ps and to take the time to get the best photograph i can into the camera.

its called a challenge for a reason i guess. :D
11/05/2003 01:35:33 PM · #32
I also like the restrictions - it has helped me to learn more about technique using different elements to make the photo right rather than using PS. I'd prefer to take a technical shot well, over making it a good shot on the computer. I really do enjoy spending a good amount of time taking picture after picture of one subject in different lighting, angles, etc... Of course, my hubby tends to get a bit irritated when I've spent 15 minutes at an ant hill during our hikes. :-)

MeThoS - Since you are shooting over 60 hours per week under guidelines already, why does this site (with guidelines) appeal to you?

11/05/2003 01:50:09 PM · #33
Of course, I am very surprised and disappointed. I thought it was only fair to mention the removal of two little dark spots on the water(the size of a leaf floating) close to the top of the frame. I just thought so minor adjustments wouldn't change much, as the image was strong enough. It was only a question of perfectionnism and not at all an attempt to cheat in any way. Again, I was honest to mention it. OK, that's the rule, I accept, and, after all, we compete for fun! But what a disappointment.
I am ready to send the original as coming from the memory stick, uncropped, reduced to 150k to anybody who would like to evaluate, as I proposed to the administrators.
J.M. Peers

Message edited by author 2003-11-05 13:58:52.
11/05/2003 01:59:02 PM · #34
Not necessary to send it, we saw it, a fine photo. I hope you can turn your disappointment into inspiration and come back with another fine photo in the next challenge. Good luck.
11/05/2003 02:29:11 PM · #35
It is one thing to allow editing for everyone, but I think it is quite a different playing field if some adhere to the rules and some do not. I agree it is sad that folks do not read (or follow) the rules. I appreciate those folks take time to notice and give those who did follow the rules a shot at a ribbon.
11/05/2003 03:03:51 PM · #36
An idea that might minimize (but not eliminate) the "after the votings over" DQs:

Perhaps one of the site council or admins (possibly on a rotating basis) could be allowed to review the top 20 photos on the last day of voting. Nothing in depth, no "fine tooth comb", just the ability to read the details, take a few extra minutes to consider possible date violations, whatever other common DQ issues that crop up most often. Then, entries like this one, which was pretty obviously a misunderstanding on a new participants part, could be DQed before they make the front page.

Granted, it wouldn't be perfect, and I don't think that someone needs to spend hours on it, but it seems like half the DQs tend to be things that become pretty obvious after the details are revealed. And, of course, it's not my time, so I can be generous with it. :)

Just a thought....
11/05/2003 03:09:38 PM · #37
Originally posted by tfaust:

MeThoS - Since you are shooting over 60 hours per week under guidelines already, why does this site (with guidelines) appeal to you?


Exactly

Message edited by author 2003-11-05 15:11:04.
11/05/2003 03:10:10 PM · #38
k

Message edited by author 2003-11-05 15:10:39.
11/05/2003 03:38:42 PM · #39
Originally posted by Ornis:

Of course, I am very surprised and disappointed. I thought it was only fair to mention the removal of two little dark spots on the water(the size of a leaf floating) close to the top of the frame. I just thought so minor adjustments wouldn't change much, as the image was strong enough. It was only a question of perfectionnism and not at all an attempt to cheat in any way. Again, I was honest to mention it. OK, that's the rule, I accept, and, after all, we compete for fun! But what a disappointment.
I am ready to send the original as coming from the memory stick, uncropped, reduced to 150k to anybody who would like to evaluate, as I proposed to the administrators.
J.M. Peers


Sorry for you, I can understand the disappointment. But don't forget, so many people voted so high for this image that it got to first place. That fact is not gone. A wonderful image, even if your editing did not fully comply with the rules here. Hope you keep on participating.
11/05/2003 03:46:55 PM · #40
Sorry for that shot, I liked it very much. Anyway, I wouldn't change the rules, I like them because they force me to improve and be creative. I think they have right because - in my opinion - this is a photo contest and not a PS one. I know it's much harder to make a really good shot without spot editing, but this is why it's fun, isn't it? :-)
11/05/2003 04:00:26 PM · #41
Originally posted by Beagleboy:

Originally posted by tfaust:

MeThoS - Since you are shooting over 60 hours per week under guidelines already, why does this site (with guidelines) appeal to you?


Exactly


I paid before even entering a challenge and seeing the rules. I came to this site when a friend suggested it. I thought it would be fun. Then I found out about the RULES! I suppose If I was just refunded my cash, I could be on my way. But I have a year left...I also wouldn't like a traditional photography constest that prohibited the use of filters. I have caught countless grief over the years from other photographers about the use of filters. Now it's photoshop ability. I use photography as ONE step in creating artwork. The idea is to present the best photograph you can. How you get there is up to you...
11/05/2003 04:03:52 PM · #42
Originally posted by willem:

Personally I like the restrictions. Because of the restrictions, I get forced into achieving maximum results just playing around with the setup, with the lights, with the camera. And that is the fun part for me.


I agree. I have other sites I post to where I can spot edit (I post reglarly to TrekEarth.com--and I learn from these shots lots of Photoshop techniques.

But here, because of the restrictions, I learn photography.
11/05/2003 04:09:18 PM · #43
This thread is getting sidetracked from a discussion of how to avoid DQing photos after the challenge into one about the appropriateness of the rules themselves.

I suggest someone revive one of the several old threads on that issue if they wish to continue, especially so that newer members can be exposed to some of the suggestions on all sides of the issue without people having to retype them.

And please remember that no matter how relaxed or stringent the editing rules are for ANY challenge, you are free to enter a completely unedited image if you want, so long as it conforms to the size restrictions.

My suggestion for avoiding late DQs is to allow the photographer's comments to be seen during the voting.

Message edited by author 2003-11-05 16:10:28.
11/05/2003 05:51:06 PM · #44
MeThoS
"I use photography as ONE step in creating artwork. The idea is to present the best photograph you can. How you get there is up to you..."

If you are using photography to create art, then the end product is not a photograph, it is an artwork. Maybe you skipped the name of the site, as well as the rules, in your haste. Why don't you take a shot at the challenges, staying within the rules, and show us what you can do as a digital photographer. And we will understand if your entry has a few small imperfections, such as leaves floating on water. We are used to seeing straight pictures and can take such things into consideration in scoring challenges entries.
11/06/2003 10:08:41 AM · #45
Copy of my message to Mr Langdon.

I understand your concerns and accept your rules, but I feel like having been considered as a mere cheater, not even with the possibility to justify myself. I have a poor opinion of a disqualification without judging, just under the pressure, as you wrote to me yesterday "We received several disqualification recommendations from your fellow photographers and voters, and the DPChallenge administrators have confirmed that your submission must be disqualified.".
I thought it was honest from my side to give details on my posting, and I don't regret I did. I proposed to send you the original for evaluation. Refused. Now, just by a quick look on some of the former contest winners shots, there is an evidence that post processing has been made, wether on PS, Paintshop or NeatImage. But of course, nobody would announce that, and these (generally beautiful) shots are still there. . I regret this hypocrisy and your lack of perspicacity.
Could you please remove my account, as I have no intention to share and comment pictures on DPC in the future.
Just hope you''ll leave this message on the forum, as I think the members who voted for me deserve my point of view.
Regards
J.M. Peers
text
11/06/2003 10:14:58 AM · #46
Sorry you feel that way Ornis, but rules are rules. Everybody has to abide by them. You were honest in stating in your photo comment about your editing procedure. Many would not have done this to try to pull the wool over our eyes. For that I commend you.

You obviously have great deal of skill and it's a shame to lose you over a misunderstanding of the submission rules.
11/06/2003 10:38:11 AM · #47
Originally posted by Beagleboy:

Sorry you feel that way Ornis, but rules are rules. Everybody has to abide by them. You were honest in stating in your photo comment about your editing procedure. Many would not have done this to try to pull the wool over our eyes. For that I commend you.

You obviously have great deal of skill and it's a shame to lose you over a misunderstanding of the submission rules.

Ditto. I wasn't involved in the discussions of your photo, but this is not the first time a winning photo has been DQd for illegal editing which only became apparent after the photographer mentioned it later.

But your complaint is a bit off-track. If you read the rules carefully, you will see that we do not prohibit "post-processing" of photos, just certain techniques, including the spot-editing you used. For example, use of NeatImage is specifically ALLOWED in the rules.

I don't think anyone but you has used the word "cheater." Normally, I would say that, like many others here, you were enthusiatic, talented, and a bit careless. But if you insist on telling me that you read the rules, including the prohibition on spot-editing, and THEN went ahead and submitted your "improved" version, well, I guess you were a cheater.

Message edited by author 2003-11-06 10:39:46.
11/06/2003 10:55:16 AM · #48
Ornis,

Your picture is a perfect example of how spot editing can improve a photograph, make a good photograph great, and allow it to remain looking like a photograph, instead of a photoshop creation.

Please stay, and help us in our quest to get the rules shifted so that in the future, pics like yours don't get DQ'd, and the quality of imagery on the site as a whole goes up.
11/06/2003 11:20:47 AM · #49
Originally posted by magnetic9999:



Please stay, and help us in our quest to get the rules shifted so that in the future, pics like yours don't get DQ'd, and the quality of imagery on the site as a whole goes up.


Isn't that really just up to the site council to make it happen ?
11/06/2003 11:38:44 AM · #50
As a new member of Site Council, I too find this to be an unfortunate incident. It was a nice shot, and you obviously didn't mean to "cheat" -- otherwise you wouldn't have described your editing techniques which violated the rules.

We are all asked to check the box that confirms we have read and abided by the rules every time we submit a shot, so as unfortunate as this is, I stand by the decision to disqualify it.

When I'm speeding down the road and a cop stops me for going 70 in a 55 zone, I don't tend to get a lot of slack for telling the officer that I didn't know what the speed limit was. Same sort of thing here.

I'll also admit that I am among those who feel that small spot editing adjustments should be legal. I'll be among those on Site Council who hope to see the rules adjusted to permit it somewhere down the line.

I also join those who hope you'll stick around and continue to participate in the site. Consider this a lesson learned, and move on -- I'm sure you, and the site as a whole, will benefit from sticking around :)

Message edited by author 2003-11-06 11:39:58.
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