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09/24/2002 02:13:01 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by WNight:
It's interesting how far people have run with their opinion of what I said.
okay let's see what you said
I believe that had FFruit not include a pretty woman that it wouldn't have rated above 6-ish.
i believe that had FFruit not included a pretty woman that 1) it wouldn't be called FFruit amd 2) it wouldn't be entered
The photo doesn't seem to be what won, the model won the contest.
some math ... the model wasn't on stage in a pageant + the photo was entered and voted on = the photo won
If the challenge were to create a winning advertisement, this would be on topic ... But, imho, not in the one it was in.
it had a fruit in it; therefore it was on-topic
it seemed like a shallow ploy to get a higher score.
it seemed like a well-shot photo that was equally well-calculated to get people to vote on it - it got 19 more votes that 2nd place, TEN of which were a 10
you might call that an opinion, but the facts are hard to argue with
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09/24/2002 03:23:20 AM · #27 |
WNight - if it was just a cheesecake shot, it would NEVER have won here. That is because a large proportion of voters are women. Any photo that wins has to appeal to both men and women to do well here, and cheesecake photos do not. The fact that this photo was still winning quality when women look at it in a non-sexual way means that it is more than just a photo of a pretty girl.
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09/24/2002 04:22:32 AM · #28 |
WNight, you keep saying that John's photo is off topic and I am just saying that it is clearly on topic. The challenge only stated that the photo needed to contain either fruit, vegetables, or both. What do you not understand about that challenge topic? By saying that John's photo doesn't meet the challenge clearly shows that you had a very limited view of what the challenge meant. When the vast majority of photographers went a particular direction with the challenge and a few went a completely different direction shows a great deal of creativity on the part of those few people. Just because beautiful woman are often used to sell everything doesn't mean that every time we see a beautiful woman in a photo it means it is cheap or wrong. John's photo clearly had another meaning and it was very logical and appropriate to use a beautiful woman in that way. It doesn't have to mean anything else unless you want it to. And obviously you do.
T
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09/24/2002 09:46:07 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by WNight:
It's interesting how far people have run with their opinion of what I said.
I simply said that I find cheesecake to be cheap. I picked on Forbidden Fruit because it's a high profile work by a respected photographer. Nobody could mistake it for a personal attack. Well, I didn't think they could. Funny thing is that JohnSetzler seemed to be the least offended person about this. :)
I'm definitely not offended. I also agree somewhat with your theory of the particular 'hook' I used to sell this photograph to the voters. 'Sex' is hardly the theme of the photo, but the 'erotic' element of the photo definitely added impact. I could have just as easily photographed an apple in any other environment and called it 'forbidden fruit'. I don't think that the theme of 'forbidden fruit' would have worked any other way though. The female figure here is part of the overall theme of the photo and my vision of what I wanted my final photo to be.
The Fruit/Veggie challenge did not specify in what context the fruit/veggie was to be portrayed. It did not even specify that the fruit/veggie had to be the main subject of the photo. In "Forbidden Fruit", however, the fruit *is* the main subject which is supported by everything else you see in that image.
As far as 'selling' the photo goes, you are right. What makes one photo of an apple any better than another? Marketing is everything. If you want something to appeal (no pun intended) to a majority, you need something to set yourself apart from the masses. In this case, I chose the female figure as my hook to sell my fruit. Whether you find that method 'cheap' or not is up to you. Whether you score it high or low is, likewise, up to you.
When I'm voting on photos here, I look for the interesting gimicks. It just so happens that some consider my 'gimick' to be cheap instead of creative... I have no hard feelings about that. No matter how this photo would have scored, it's one of my best yet. It also has my girlfriend terrified :) She knows I want to explore some more similar ideas ;)
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09/24/2002 10:15:06 AM · #30 |
thing is, you couldn't do this shot without an apple and have it
have the same meaning/ symbolism.
You couldn't do it without a stand-in eve, and have it have the
same symbolism. It isn't gratuitous to gain votes.
Are these 'cheesecake' ?
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09/24/2002 10:17:14 AM · #31 |
They arent cheesecake at all.. they are just loaded up with illegal filters :)
Honestly, society today is more afraid of nudity than we have been in the past ages....
* This message has been edited by the author on 9/24/2002 10:38:37 AM.
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09/24/2002 11:36:11 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by JohnSetzler :
Honestly, society today is more afraid of nudity than we have been in the past ages....
not all of society - just that part that would remove all individuality so that (1)no one is better/worse than anyone else (2) no one is subjected to anything that might offend them (3) everyone else conforms to their idea of what is acceptable |
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09/24/2002 11:48:13 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by spiderman:
Originally posted by JohnSetzler :
[i]Honestly, society today is more afraid of nudity than we have been in the past ages....
not all of society - just that part that would remove all individuality so that (1)no one is better/worse than anyone else (2) no one is subjected to anything that might offend them (3) everyone else conforms to their idea of what is acceptable[/i]
...and I believe that this is a pretty big chunk, combined :)
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09/24/2002 11:50:40 AM · #34 |
Look at the 11th place winner in the Negative Space challenge -Light Dance-. I'm one of many rating this a "10" but there are also five "1" votes and twelve "2" votes.
If a work of art such as this offends you, just don't vote on it. There is no reason to bring the average score of somebody's beautifully executed photograph down.
I would like to know the reasons for the 1's and 2's and even 3's in this photo. |
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09/24/2002 11:56:47 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by joanns:
Look at the 11th place winner in the Negative Space challenge -Light Dance-. I'm one of many rating this a "10" but there are also five "1" votes and twelve "2" votes.
If a work of art such as this offends you, just don't vote on it. There is no reason to bring the average score of somebody's beautifully executed photograph down.
I would like to know the reasons for the 1's and 2's and even 3's in this photo.
I gave that photo a 10 also. I really liked the creative use of lighting to give negative space to the subject as well as the background.
Keep in mind that subjectivity plays a large role in voting on photographs. If you photograph a subject that people don't like, you will be scored according to the morals and personal values of the voter.
Based on lots of comments I read, I believe that subjectivity plays a larger role in the voting process. I have seen plenty of praise given to photos that are not technically or compositionally exceptional. There is nothing wrong with that either... it's just an observation...
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09/24/2002 01:07:51 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by joanns:
I would like to know the reasons for the 1's and 2's and even 3's in this photo.
The eternal question...and it will never be answered here. I have asked the same question for 6 months...but..most people seem to want to protect the anonymous voting nature of the site by the response to ideas of revealing peoples vote at the end of the challenge.
Nowadays, I just submit, vote..comment on a few photos and hit the road..too much stress for me anymore >:-D
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09/24/2002 01:11:50 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by JohnSetzler :
Based on lots of comments I read, I believe that subjectivity plays a larger role in the voting process. I have seen plenty of praise given to photos that are not technically or compositionally exceptional. There is nothing wrong with that either... it's just an observation...
it's too bad that door has to swing both ways - plenty of technically "perfect" and compelling shots get votes of 1 or 2 simply because of ... what? oh, no reason ... just because
<bang>head against wall</bang> |
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09/24/2002 01:15:59 PM · #38 |
IMHO- 1's for great shots are _trolls_ that really don't care.
That or they are jealous and think if they vote the best shots low, it will raise their score.
:( Sad, sad. |
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09/24/2002 02:09:20 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by hokie:
Nowadays, I just submit, vote..comment on a few photos and hit the road..too much stress for me anymore >:-D
Words of Wisdom... I think I need to follow suit :)
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09/24/2002 03:01:34 PM · #40 |
I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a minute on the subject currently active in this thread.
Has anyone considered that these 1 and 2 votes on winning/high placing photos may be honest votes? Perhaps they see flaws that nobody else has noticed, or they simply think the work is TOO derivative, or maybe they just don't like it, or maybe.... While I don't think I've ever given a winning photo a 1, I have given a number of them 4s, 5s, and 6s. In one recent case, a photo that everyone held up to be an amazingly brilliant shot I firmly believed to have been illegally edited in Photoshop or an equivalent. (I continue to believe so.)
Don't get me wrong, I was as frustrated to get these low votes as anybody on my work -- even when they were "justified" by a less than perfect image. But I sometimes feel like the "witch hunt" to expose these voters may not have any real basis in reality. While I do believe there are those voters who only vote 1s and 2s, these votes are removed from the final score. (Unless something has changed recently.) The remaining votes would seem, then, to be mostly legitimate. My guess is that the five 1s on your photo were not given to you by the same people who gave me five 1s on my photo and so on down the line.
We all have different taste. We all have different things we're looking for in these contests. We all vote on different scales.
The only way you're gonna get rid of 1s is to eliminate it from the vote in the first place -- but then we'll just start complaining about 2s, and then 3s, and pretty soon, it'll be like public school -- if your kid doesn't get an "A" it must be the teacher's fault.
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09/24/2002 03:15:10 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by Patella:
I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a minute on the subject currently active in this thread.
Has anyone considered that these 1 and 2 votes on winning/high placing photos may be honest votes? Perhaps they see flaws that nobody else has noticed, or they simply think the work is TOO derivative, or maybe they just don't like it, or maybe.... While I don't think I've ever given a winning photo a 1, I have given a number of them 4s, 5s, and 6s. In one recent case, a photo that everyone held up to be an amazingly brilliant shot I firmly believed to have been illegally edited in Photoshop or an equivalent. (I continue to believe so.)
Which one ?
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09/24/2002 03:15:19 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Patella:
I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a minute on the subject currently active in this thread.
Has anyone considered that these 1 and 2 votes on winning/high placing photos may be honest votes? Perhaps they see flaws that nobody else has noticed, or they simply think the work is TOO derivative, or maybe they just don't like it, or maybe.... While I don't think I've ever given a winning photo a 1, I have given a number of them 4s, 5s, and 6s. In one recent case, a photo that everyone held up to be an amazingly brilliant shot I firmly believed to have been illegally edited in Photoshop or an equivalent. (I continue to believe so.)
Don't get me wrong, I was as frustrated to get these low votes as anybody on my work -- even when they were "justified" by a less than perfect image. But I sometimes feel like the "witch hunt" to expose these voters may not have any real basis in reality. While I do believe there are those voters who only vote 1s and 2s, these votes are removed from the final score. (Unless something has changed recently.) The remaining votes would seem, then, to be mostly legitimate. My guess is that the five 1s on your photo were not given to you by the same people who gave me five 1s on my photo and so on down the line.
We all have different taste. We all have different things we're looking for in these contests. We all vote on different scales.
The only way you're gonna get rid of 1s is to eliminate it from the vote in the first place -- but then we'll just start complaining about 2s, and then 3s, and pretty soon, it'll be like public school -- if your kid doesn't get an "A" it must be the teacher's fault.
I couldn't agree more. I've been saying the same thing, but maybe not as well, for a while. This morning I even created a signature for myself. LOL
Mark
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09/24/2002 08:41:34 PM · #43 |
Actually, I wanted a 'n/a' option to skip voting on a picture without having to lower its score just because I don't think it should win. A picture with a large number of n/a votes could be disqualified (as it would effectively be if those were 1s) but it would still retain its score letting the artist see what people thought of the work, despite its not qualifying.
As John says, I'll vote based on my view of people's hooks. Never did I ask for certain pictures to be banned or anything, I just expressed my view of them (specifically in a voting context). I have no problem with this, however I still think two things are cheap and I will vote accordingly. The first is only peripherally including the subject and the second is the use of any gratuitous vote-grabs. This includes T&A, flags on the 11th, or whatever.
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09/24/2002 09:34:40 PM · #44 |
Were not just a bunch of gullible idiots. There are a ton of people that vote on the photos and if the majority think that a photo is a winner, then guess what? It's a winner. These images that you speak of, WNight, would not be voted highly on if they were not also technically superior. I can understand a person's votes going up or down a couple of points depending on if that person likes the subject matter or not but I think it is just wrong and ignorant to give a great photo a 1 simply because the subject matter rubs you the wrong way.
T
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09/24/2002 09:59:54 PM · #45 |
I have never suggested people vote a particular way.
What I HAVE said is if people feel so convinced of their votes why not let eveyone see their vote and if there are questions then discussion can insue.
More than likely, I am the kind of photographer that will drift away from this site. Competition is fun but I have limited time nowadays and I think I would prefer to develop my photography on my terms. I can't see who is voting what to encourage discussion of different opinions and I find I need this. I get this when face to face with folks and I like it :-)
* This message has been edited by the author on 9/24/2002 9:58:23 PM. |
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09/24/2002 10:23:57 PM · #46 |
The down side to making votes public is that someone that feels a photo deserves a one will be pounced upon, vilified, and ripped to shreds by the 'enlightened' folks that don't agree. There was a thread not long ago about someone that voted a 1, left a comment as to why, and signed their name... They were raked over the coals for their honesty... While I agree we learn most when folks give honest opinions, I think the less anonymous the opinion, the less honest it is likely to be.
But I could be wrong :) |
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09/24/2002 10:31:15 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
The down side to making votes public is that someone that feels a photo deserves a one will be pounced upon, vilified, and ripped to shreds by the 'enlightened' folks that don't agree. There was a thread not long ago about someone that voted a 1, left a comment as to why, and signed their name... They were raked over the coals for their honesty... While I agree we learn most when folks give honest opinions, I think the less anonymous the opinion, the less honest it is likely to be.
But I could be wrong :)
I think there are over 300 folks voting with 300 motives :-)
As far as honesty and anonymity. If honest opinions here depend on people being anonymous that may be why I find myself leaning away more each day. That isn't how I want to discuss photography. But, It may be perfect for lots of other folks.
I like frank and OPEN voting among peers who respect and get to know each other. That probably leads me to photo club stuff more than en masse anononymous stuff. I just joined a regional photo organization which may be influencing my thinking a lot in this manner.
Anyway..thats my deal..no need to get into forum business :-)
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09/24/2002 11:29:15 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by timj351:
but I think it is just wrong and ignorant to give a great photo a 1 simply because the subject matter rubs you the wrong way.
T
Disagree. If the main purpose of your submission is to preach or deliver a strong message, I will vote on the message. Let's give an example about an issue that easily becomes a national shouting match: abortion. I happen to be strongly pro-choice and if you were to submit a technical good picture portraying people favoring abortion as murderers and baby killers I would give it a 1. Ditto if you were to submit a good picture depicting your adoration of Hitler or Bin Laden. Etc.
Art does not operate in some sort of a lofty vacuum. If you bring the "politics" into the picture and if your picture is just a pretty vehicle to sell a message then voters absolutely have a right to vote based on their acceptance/rejection of the message delivered. After all, photographs can have tremendous power.
This post is digressing from the cheesecake factor but your post was discussing "subject matter" in general, I believe.
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09/24/2002 11:42:52 PM · #49 |
I agree with Journey on a limited basis... I vote subjectively as well, but I don't give a 1 simply because of the subject.
In Journey's message, I draw the conclusion that subject is worth 9 points and everything else is worth 1. I give merit to the photo if there is merit to be given on the objective scale as well as the subjective scale. I don't blind myself with any single particular about a photo... |
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09/25/2002 12:07:01 AM · #50 |
nevermind
* This message has been edited by the author on 9/25/2002 12:06:30 AM. |
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