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04/29/2021 06:31:08 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Can't people just accept that you put a photo out there to be voted on, and it's a highly subjective endeavor which may not align with others views. |
It occurs to me that it's a common belief that one can/should learn from one's mistakes, and so the opinion of someone who doesn't like your image is the only one from which you can actually learn something new, and thus should be valued for its contribution to one's improvement as a photographer and not as a negative commentary on one's personality or worth as a human being ... |
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04/29/2021 10:22:00 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by roz:
Can't people just accept that you put a photo out there to be voted on, and it's a highly subjective endeavor which may not align with others views. |
Yes, but everybody needs to vote for this to be a fair process. (sorry to change the subject).
To get back to the OP, all votes should be accepted and not scorned upon. This is a diverse community with varying opinion, hopefully (at least that's what I 'm here for). |
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04/30/2021 12:12:41 PM · #28 |
The thing that's hard to learn (and the reason that post challenge discussions would be extremely useful) is that people don't have the same criteria when voting.
So some votes just don't seem "fair". Because, by our own standards, the vote doesn't make much sense.
For instance: When I first started, I couldn't begin to understand why some people didn't consider the difficulty in getting the shot. Flying birds should score MUCH higher than sitting birds!
Photos with stories should score higher than others
Etc., Etc., blah blah blah. :)
But it was either Don or Ubique that gave me a 3, on something that I thought was spectacular, but it was because it was ordinary. Which makes a lot of sense. (personally, I still think spectacular should get at least a 5. ;P )
If you're seeking to perfect technical skills -- and you get something that was years in the making, it's incredibly important to you. And it's hard to see how someone can think it bland or ordinary.
If you've spent years not caring about technical, appreciating "flawed" pieces while still finding their beauty, technical doesn't matter if it doesn't interest you at all.
Personally, I think a well rounded artists understands all of it. But do we vote on our understanding? Or do we vote on our passions?
I'd been voting on my understanding. The quality of the photo, the difficulty in getting the shot, the lighting, the composition, trying to understand why they took the photo, with extra points if it made an impact.
But I'm starting to get bored with that. I want to get excited by an entry. I want to be wowed. I want to be confused. I want to be wistful. Make me feel something! I looked through the Kitchen Art challenge, expecting to be bored. But I was pleasantly surprised. I was a bit wowed on occasion, definitely confused by a couple of pieces. I can't believe I found the kitchen art more interesting than the burst of color challenge!
Message edited by author 2021-04-30 12:56:07. |
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05/02/2021 07:35:15 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Over a week ago, someone commented on a blue ribbon photo and said that people who voted 4 or 5 were a disgrace to the DPC community. |
This shows a complete lack of comprehension of how the system of voting works among artists. That there is disparity shows that the image has a different effect on somethat may not match the majority. Their vision is different, not wrong.
Originally posted by posthumous:
Indeed I did vote 4 on that photo and did not appreciate that my opinion was being called a disgrace to the community. I do not think these votes are a disgrace to anything or anyone. |
What's a disgrace is that someone has such arrogance to make such a statement without the slightest clue about how genuinely poisonous to a community it is as well as a reflection of what a functionally mean thing it was to say.
Originally posted by posthumous:
It is OK to dislike something that 95% of people like. Your aesthetic is highly subjective, and it should be. You should cultivate an individual appreciation for art. You should not be looking around to see what other people think. Sure you can learn things from other people. That's one of the main ways of learning things! But there is a difference between learning and conforming. |
Small minds are often closed.
Originally posted by posthumous:
More people listen to Cardi B than Chopin. That doesn't mean that Cardi B is better than Chopin. |
This is an awesome analogy! At my age (65), the current state of popular music has changed and evolved through a number of generations and iterations. I know that some of the musoic from my earlier days is better, more skill all 'round, technical skills, groundbreaking techniques, but through popular music's evolution, that's not what's necessarily important to the majority of people now. There is current stuff I like, and obviously for its own merits despite my own preferences.
Originally posted by posthumous:
I'm well aware that some people on this site think that there are objective standards of photographic skill and that the best thing this site could do is help photographers improve along those standards. They are free to believe that, and vote accordingly. But they should not be suppressing other votes through shaming. |
I will never understand why people cannot see that someone who has a completely different point of view than you has the greatest opportunity to teach you. You may not agree with their perspective, but it's valuable to see it and understand it even if you don't embrace it.
Originally posted by posthumous:
They can even start threads to promote their objective standards, and we can have a healthy debate about it. Knock yourselves out and I look forward to debating you and showing you some awesome historical evidence about competing traditions and ideas. |
Sign me up, please!
Originally posted by posthumous:
Far from protecting the "grace" of the community, you are attacking the spirit of community when you try to shame people for nonconformity. A good community appreciates diversity. Non-diverse communities stagnate and die off. |
Too many people are learning their bad habits from the unwashed masses on social media sites. Like it's cool to hide behind a keyboard and be a jerk. One of the things I've most treasured about my time here is the genuine goodwill shared throughout the community.
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05/02/2021 07:39:59 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Can't people just accept that you put a photo out there to be voted on, and it's a highly subjective endeavor which may not align with others views. |
Please! You're using facts, logic, reason, and common sense! Knock it off!
Originally posted by GeneralE:
It occurs to me that it's a common belief that one can/should learn from one's mistakes, and so the opinion of someone who doesn't like your image is the only one from which you can actually learn something new, and thus should be valued for its contribution to one's improvement as a photographer and not as a negative commentary on one's personality or worth as a human being ... |
Not necessarily sure I agree with that. Yes, someone whose perspective is diametrically opposed to yours offers up an opportunity to see yourself from a different point of view, but that doesn't mean that what you may learn is valuable. But it's still worth knowing it's out there.
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05/02/2021 10:52:48 AM · #31 |
| I don't see how you learn anything from someone who gives a low score other than they didn't like the picture. That person should have the integrity and spirit to explain their view so the author of the picture can actually have the opportunity to "learn" from an opposing point of view. Otherwise a single low score is seen as something with an ulterior motive. |
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05/02/2021 11:55:40 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by GolferDDS:
I don't see how you learn anything from someone who gives a low score other than they didn't like the picture. That person should have the integrity and spirit to explain their view so the author of the picture can actually have the opportunity to "learn" from an opposing point of view. Otherwise a single low score is seen as something with an ulterior motive. |
Unfortunately that doesn't work so well around here. Unless the person leaving the comment has extremely thick skin and can take being roasted by follow-up comments and / or threads. Maybe the PM route would work, but that has a tendency to work it's way into the public view as well at times.
I think the photographer has to take all votes in stride and realize not everyone is going to have the same view / opinion as they do on their entry. |
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05/02/2021 12:08:09 PM · #33 |
| When I vote, I approach it as a photography contest (as opposed to an art competition). Photography is both craft and art, and I judge entries on both accounts. If a photo leaves me completely cold, but is technically well done, I would probably give it a 5. If a photo is both uninteresting and amateurish, my score can go lower. But if I love the photo, the score may go much higher even if it is weak on technicals (sometimes it may actually add to the emotional impact). So when I see that a technically well crafted photo that squarely meets the challenge was scored with 1-3, I feel it was bit unfair. Even though I recognize the complete right of anyone to use their own criteria in voting. |
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05/02/2021 01:02:48 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by GolferDDS:
... Otherwise a single low score is seen as something with an ulterior motive. |
A low or high score can be "seen" as anything you like. That is not a problem; declaring that it is subterfugeous is most certainly a problem. It is a fact that we truly see and appreciate some photos, that we do not appreciate others, and that sometimes we do not really see the photo.
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05/02/2021 03:13:09 PM · #35 |
Voting in a contest where you participate is always influenced by the ranking so many votes are not really objective and constructive. I cannot agree with the sentence that those who vote low is a disgrace for the community but the tendency to lower the vote is very evident (just look at the average vote of the participants). In any case, I don't even understand a "4" to Gyaban; give it to me the "4" but not to an editing genius.
This is my opinion |
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05/02/2021 03:30:15 PM · #36 |
I'll play.
If you enter the challenge, you start at 3.
This is topic dependent, but if the photo could have people in it and you went a different direction, probably not moving from there.
I'm a huge stickler for the topic. So DNMC runs rampant in my voting.
Your choice of editing can move that needle all over the place.
Originally posted by gyaban:
In any case, I don't even understand a "4" to Gyaban; give it to me the "4" but not to an editing genius. |
I don't find his end creations are photography. They are composed of pictures, but are manipulated so much that in my opinion, are now a different artistic endeavor. There's no malice when I vote low on one of Christophe's images. In fact it'd be a good topic for discussion in these forums. |
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05/02/2021 03:53:47 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by Venser:
I don't find his end creations are photography. They are composed of pictures, but are manipulated so much that in my opinion, are now a different artistic endeavor. There's no malice when I vote low on one of Christophe's images. In fact it'd be a good topic for discussion in these forums. |
His works are always extended editing; if they respect the rules they must be voted as such and not on the basis of what you think is a photograph. Gyaban's problem is that he exists and when he participates it is difficult to overcome him (it has happened a few times)cause is a great in editing's works. What I mean is that in extended editing (with all the rules respected) it is very difficult to do a better job than him. Someone did it and even with fantastic editing but, in principle, a "4" in Gyaban means that the others are masterpieces and, frankly, better works I rarely see. |
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05/02/2021 05:59:44 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Sisto:
in principle, a "4" in Gyaban means that the others are masterpieces and, frankly, better works I rarely see. |
That's your opinion.
I often find Chirstophe's work, even though it's technically on point, to be devoid of what I'm looking for in a photo. They don't make me want to take a second look.
This goes back to the comment I made about the subjective nature of voting. It is what it is. No one person is correct, we all are. |
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05/02/2021 06:36:14 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Sisto:
in principle, a "4" in Gyaban means that the others are masterpieces and, frankly, better works I rarely see. |
That's your opinion.
I often find Chirstophe's work, even though it's technically on point, to be devoid of what I'm looking for in a photo. They don't make me want to take a second look.
This goes back to the comment I made about the subjective nature of voting. It is what it is. No one person is correct, we all are. |
Chris,
Your average score given is about a 4. That means that most pictures you rate are significantly below average. Would you please post a few pictures you consider 6âs or above and a few that have done well in the voting that you have voted below 5 and explain your reasoning. It would help to understand your justification for so many low votes. |
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05/02/2021 06:50:13 PM · #40 |
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05/02/2021 06:52:11 PM · #41 |
GOLFERman! That is an entirely unreasonable request. NO ONE has to justify his/her/their votes. A vote is a vote is a vote. We are here to find out more about the wonderful thing in a photo/picture that moves us/floats our boat/inspires us. IT IS NOT ABOUT THE ************SCORE - not the score we get, not the score we give. Scores are merely clues, good or bad clues, but only clues.
eta: but thanks for the examples anyway, Venser.
Message edited by author 2021-05-02 18:54:47. |
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05/02/2021 07:56:47 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by tnun:
GOLFERman! That is an entirely unreasonable request. NO ONE has to justify his/her/their votes. A vote is a vote is a vote. We are here to find out more about the wonderful thing in a photo/picture that moves us/floats our boat/inspires us. IT IS NOT ABOUT THE ************SCORE - not the score we get, not the score we give. Scores are merely clues, good or bad clues, but only clues.
eta: but thanks for the examples anyway, Venser. |
That is exactly my point. Unfortunately this website is based on a point system. Without an explanation ie. comment an individual is not going to understand an abnormally low score. I believe one of the things that keeps DPC going is that by participating we become better photographers and have fun doing it. Scores are merely a mechanism to compare and to judge our own progress over time. If there is a comraderie on this site which I believe there is then everyone is in it to also appreciate the efforts and improvement we see in others and to motivate them to improve. Maybe I am idealistic but had I not listened to the comments of others and watched my relative scores improve over time I would not have learned as much. Therefore, I do appreciate Venser posting his examples and describing what he likes and does not like as opposed to just a score. Itâs a learning experience. |
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05/02/2021 09:32:25 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by tnun:
A low or high score can be "seen" as anything you like. That is not a problem; declaring that it is subterfugeous is most certainly a problem. It is a fact that we truly see and appreciate some photos, that we do not appreciate others, and that sometimes we do not really see the photo. |
Is that a real word??? I want it! LOL!
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05/02/2021 09:44:05 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by tnun:
GOLFERman! That is an entirely unreasonable request. NO ONE has to justify his/her/their votes. A vote is a vote is a vote. We are here to find out more about the wonderful thing in a photo/picture that moves us/floats our boat/inspires us. IT IS NOT ABOUT THE ************SCORE - not the score we get, not the score we give. Scores are merely clues, good or bad clues, but only clues.
eta: but thanks for the examples anyway, Venser. |
Having the pleasure of getting to know Larry somewhat, I know he was not asking for  Venser to jusdtify his voting style as much as his curiosity as to what inspires him.
Originally posted by GolferDDS:
That is exactly my point. Unfortunately this website is based on a point system. Without an explanation ie. comment an individual is not going to understand an abnormally low score. I believe one of the things that keeps DPC going is that by participating we become better photographers and have fun doing it. Scores are merely a mechanism to compare and to judge our own progress over time. If there is a comraderie on this site which I believe there is then everyone is in it to also appreciate the efforts and improvement we see in others and to motivate them to improve. Maybe I am idealistic but had I not listened to the comments of others and watched my relative scores improve over time I would not have learned as much. Therefore, I do appreciate Venser posting his examples and describing what he likes and does not like as opposed to just a score. Itâs a learning experience. |
Pedantic moment.... Camaraderie LOL!
There are still quite a few of us who want to know and understand members of the community as it better aids us in improvimng our own style and range as we progress.
I get annoyed at people who suggest fixes/improvements to my images when it's their visceral reaction that I want. But I don't get to choose how someone votes or comments so I do the best I can with what's offered me.
It took a while for me to get to the point where I understand that I take what I get and utilize it the best I can to use, or lose, what I've been given.
I am always graetful to submit and see what I get.....it *always* tells me something about the photographer that I am.
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05/02/2021 11:29:28 PM · #45 |
| I get down my high horse, no subterfug. |
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05/03/2021 02:09:23 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Having the pleasure of getting to know Larry somewhat, I know he was not asking for Venser to jusdtify his voting style as much as his curiosity as to what inspires him. |
Street photography and photojournalism are what float my boat. Outside of those categories, it's all the same to me.
I'm not going to give examples of images that didn't inspire me because the photographer may not appreciate being put on display. The short answer is the photo didn't resonate. That's all. |
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05/03/2021 10:15:38 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by Sisto:
In any case, I don't even understand a "4" to Gyaban |
I will gladly explain my 4 to Gyaban if you're willing to listen. I just don't know if this is an expression of curiosity or a declaration of principle. |
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05/03/2021 10:44:25 AM · #48 |
Isn't one of the key questions here whether someone should get high points for a picture that shows a technical skill that others don't have? Should high quality editing get a high score because others are unable to do the same? Should a certain type of photography get a high score because of a certain technical excellence?
In my view a high technical quality should not automatically get a high score. Technical quality for me is a base requirement.
If that technical skill results in a picture that somehow moves me strongly ,then it will get a high score, but in that case it is because of the effect it has, not because of the skill shown.
Technical faults can cause subtraction of points, but at the same time other factors might cause addition of points. If there are two pictures with an equal score on all other factors, such as meeting-the-challenge, appeal, story/message, creativity etc. (whatever criteria I use in voting, depends on the challenge) and technical quality is the remaining factor, then the higher quality picture will eventually get a higher score.
If a high technical quality picture leaves me cold it will still only get an average score to start with. The final ranking depends on the score of rest of the images. I add/subtract points to get a proper ranking.
For others it might work differently. That's o.k.
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05/03/2021 12:27:07 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Sisto:
In any case, I don't even understand a "4" to Gyaban |
I will gladly explain my 4 to Gyaban if you're willing to listen. I just don't know if this is an expression of curiosity or a declaration of principle. |
I have read, listened to and respected all your opinions but I also expressed mine. I want to say that, in my humble opinion, on a scale of 1 to 10 a 4 is a serious insufficiency and considering that (for me) Gyaban's works are always themed and are very well executed I would like to know if your opinion concerns that particular shot or is about the whole work of the artist; I also know that probably it's a too private question but it's this my curiosity. Saying that I don't understand this kind of low vote it doesn't mean that I'm agree in considering you a disgrace but simply that i'm not agree with that votation.
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05/03/2021 01:04:13 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Having the pleasure of getting to know Larry somewhat, I know he was not asking for Venser to jusdtify his voting style as much as his curiosity as to what inspires him. |
Street photography and photojournalism are what float my boat. Outside of those categories, it's all the same to me.
I'm not going to give examples of images that didn't inspire me because the photographer may not appreciate being put on display. The short answer is the photo didn't resonate. That's all. |
Venser, I understand and appreciate your specific photography interests. The photos you posted are outstanding and thought provoking. This photography site is made up of a diverse group of individuals with varied interests. Not all pictures submitted fall into your pleasure zone which I suspect is why you score so poorly. I would say that the vast majority would feel negatively by a score of 4 or less. Usually if someone gets a low score overall it is a general opinion that most people felt the picture lacked appeal in several ways. If there is a small minority of low scores the question then becomes âwhy?â. Gyaban is a perfect example. Most everyone would agree that his talent and creativity are unique and praiseworthy. To see him get a 3 or 4 on his artwork is worthy of question and deserving of an answer. Bottom line is if you are not willing to back up a low score with an explanation then maybe you shouldnât vote on that picture at all. Many of us are here to learn and a random 3 or 4 does not teach.
Message edited by author 2021-05-03 13:31:06. |
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