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05/03/2021 02:08:17 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by GolferDDS:
... Bottom line is if you are not willing to back up a low score with an explanation then maybe you shouldn’t vote on that picture at all. Many of us are here to learn and a random 3 or 4 does not teach. |
I disagree 110%. Venser does not have to justify his vote to anyone if he's voting fairly across the spectrum. I've handed out very low scores to some of gyaban's work as well in the past. Some of it is so far out it sometimes doesn't fit, IMO, in the photography aspect of this site. Again, IMO.
Edit - typo.
Message edited by author 2021-05-03 14:08:45. |
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05/03/2021 02:48:30 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb (05/02/2021 07:39:59 AM):
Originally posted by GeneralE:
It occurs to me that it's a common belief that one can/should learn from one's mistakes, and so the opinion of someone who doesn't like your image is the only one from which you can actually learn something new, and thus should be valued for its contribution to one's improvement as a photographer and not as a negative commentary on one's personality or worth as a human being ... |
Not necessarily sure I agree with that. Yes, someone whose perspective is diametrically opposed to yours offers up an opportunity to see yourself from a different point of view, but that doesn't mean that what you may learn is valuable. But it's still worth knowing it's out there. |
Didn't you just say the same thing as I did four minutes ago?
Originally posted by NikonJeb (05/02/2021 07:35:15 AM):
I will never understand why people cannot see that someone who has a completely different point of view than you has the greatest opportunity to teach you. You may not agree with their perspective, but it's valuable to see it and understand it even if you don't embrace it. |
Message edited by author 2021-05-03 14:58:26. |
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05/03/2021 03:11:03 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by Sisto:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Sisto:
In any case, I don't even understand a "4" to Gyaban |
I will gladly explain my 4 to Gyaban if you're willing to listen. I just don't know if this is an expression of curiosity or a declaration of principle. |
I have read, listened to and respected all your opinions but I also expressed mine. I want to say that, in my humble opinion, on a scale of 1 to 10 a 4 is a serious insufficiency and considering that (for me) Gyaban's works are always themed and are very well executed I would like to know if your opinion concerns that particular shot or is about the whole work of the artist; I also know that probably it's a too private question but it's this my curiosity. Saying that I don't understand this kind of low vote it doesn't mean that I'm agree in considering you a disgrace but simply that i'm not agree with that votation. |
hmmm sounds like you've already made up your mind, but for you and for golfer, I will explain my reasoning. The reason I hesitate is because if I publicly explain why I don't like a ribbon winner, some people will feel like I'm just picking on someone who has had success, tinkling in his cheerios, if you will. But since you and golfer are publicly asking for explanations, I will oblige.
First of all, it is not directed at the artist but at the specific shot. Also, keep in mind that a 4 is not terrible for me. I am willing to give a 3 or lower for a shot I dislike. I gave this photo a 4 mostly for the effort that went into it. But effort is not art. Effort can enhance art, but effort can also just remain effort and nothing else. You see a masterpiece. I see someone modeling a bunch of rubber masks. What is the great artistic statement of this masterpiece? You tell me. I see none. I see an illustration of a story. Prometheus is represented as someone large. His large hands hold the people/animals. This merely illustrates the story. It adds nothing to it. The idea that a person being turned into an animal is represented by a person wearing an animal mask is ... well ... not very deep. He mostly managed to light everything from the right but he failed to have them cast shadows on each other. If you want to see a true expert on lighting in fantastical settings, check out Salvador Dali paintings. And then there's composition. It's not interesting. It's not dynamic. The highlights are mostly blob shaped and do not form larger shapes or movements. The composition doesn't move the eye. It doesn't flow. In a masterpiece, lighting, composition and other formal considerations are actually part of the story it tells and/or the themes it contains.
Please, you tell me what I have missed. I'm not dismissing your taste or your aesthetic judgment. I simply don't know what it is. Please tell me. I'm actually listening. I would honestly like to add to what I appreciate. I feel like developing one's taste should more often be about liking more things rather than disliking more things.
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05/03/2021 03:32:23 PM · #54 |
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05/03/2021 06:59:48 PM · #55 |
| yes, Don's guidelines for giving and receiving feedback are also a window to seeing. |
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05/03/2021 08:36:00 PM · #56 |
"First of all, it is not directed at the artist but at the specific shot. Also, keep in mind that a 4 is not terrible for me. I am willing to give a 3 or lower for a shot I dislike. I gave this photo a 4 mostly for the effort that went into it. But effort is not art. Effort can enhance art, but effort can also just remain effort and nothing else. You see a masterpiece. I see someone modeling a bunch of rubber masks. What is the great artistic statement of this masterpiece? You tell me. I see none. I see an illustration of a story. Prometheus is represented as someone large. His large hands hold the people/animals. This merely illustrates the story. It adds nothing to it. The idea that a person being turned into an animal is represented by a person wearing an animal mask is ... well ... not very deep. He mostly managed to light everything from the right but he failed to have them cast shadows on each other. If you want to see a true expert on lighting in fantastical settings, check out Salvador Dali paintings. And then there's composition. It's not interesting. It's not dynamic. The highlights are mostly blob shaped and do not form larger shapes or movements. The composition doesn't move the eye. It doesn't flow. In a masterpiece, lighting, composition and other formal considerations are actually part of the story it tells and/or the themes it contains.
Please, you tell me what I have missed. I'm not dismissing your taste or your aesthetic judgment. I simply don't know what it is. Please tell me. I'm actually listening. I would honestly like to add to what I appreciate. I feel like developing one's taste should more often be about liking more things rather than disliking more things."
Don, Yes. Thank You. That is exactly an example of an explanation that defines the criteria that you chose to score this photo example. If I received a comment like this I might disagree, but I would value the thought, interpretation and expression that was used to critique it. You do not say that you only enjoy "Street Photography and photojournalism" and therefore all other entries are not worthy of your attention. You see the good and bad in all genre's of photography that appear in the challenges and have come up with a scoring system that works for you. I would hope that everyone would take this approach.
Message edited by author 2021-05-03 20:36:34. |
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05/03/2021 11:43:23 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by GolferDDS:
Don, Yes. Thank You. That is exactly an example of an explanation that defines the criteria that you chose to score this photo example. If I received a comment like this I might disagree, but I would value the thought, interpretation and expression that was used to critique it. You do not say that you only enjoy "Street Photography and photojournalism" and therefore all other entries are not worthy of your attention. You see the good and bad in all genre's of photography that appear in the challenges and have come up with a scoring system that works for you. I would hope that everyone would take this approach. |
I share your spirit for robust critique and debate but I've found that people sometimes take offense when I do this. |
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05/04/2021 01:53:14 AM · #58 |
what great tutorials . didnt know they were there .. i especially love the 3 steps for voting on artistic photographs .. actually loved them all .. so many of the things you spoke about resonated with me .. thankyou Don for your very wise words ... :) |
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05/04/2021 04:00:24 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
hmmm sounds like you've already made up your mind.... |
Maybe we don't understand each other. It is irrefutable that we will always remain in our positions of thought, it is undeniable that any type of criticism is always welcome and I have already expressed my opinion regarding the use of the term "disgrace".
Regarding your previous post I would not use the word "masterpiece" but a job well done, which is different. If you don't see what I (or most voters) see I can respect it; I just hope you didn't rate my picture better than Gyaban's. |
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05/04/2021 08:14:45 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by Sisto:
Originally posted by posthumous:
hmmm sounds like you've already made up your mind.... |
Maybe we don't understand each other. It is irrefutable that we will always remain in our positions of thought, it is undeniable that any type of criticism is always welcome and I have already expressed my opinion regarding the use of the term "disgrace".
Regarding your previous post I would not use the word "masterpiece" but a job well done, which is different. If you don't see what I (or most voters) see I can respect it; I just hope you didn't rate my picture better than Gyaban's. |
My mind was elsewhere so I did not contribute here (sorry, Don, but reading through this busy forum I think - lucky me! ;) On reflection I agree that "disgrace" was the wrong word but how would I know it was you who gave one of those 4s! Most others would have ignored my comment :)
PS I wish I were an artist but I am a mere photo hobbyist not having any idea what "art" is. I either like something (usually pretty pictures) or I appreciate something (like good street photography which may not be pretty), and occasionally I am blown away. There are currently three DPCers who post work that I am blown away with, one of them is  gyaban. I am always amazed with his work, it is incredible! The amount of thought he puts into his creations, great photography and the seamless editing are out of this small hobbyist world (it is my personal opinion, of course ;)
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05/04/2021 09:40:01 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by GolferDDS:
You do not say that you only enjoy "Street Photography and photojournalism" and therefore all other entries are not worthy of your attention. |
My reason for dissent is a little more complicated than that, but simply don't want to elaborate. There's no point. I don't like it should suffice.
Ironically no one is asking for justification on the images I do like, especially the one I consider "best". Go figure.
Originally posted by MargaretNet:
I wish I were an artist but I am a mere photo hobbyist not having any idea what "art" is. |
What is an artist?
Why aren't you one?
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05/04/2021 09:58:01 AM · #62 |
Originally posted by Venser:
I don't like it should suffice. |
This ^ ^ ^ |
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05/04/2021 10:25:59 AM · #63 |
It seems to me that, telling people how to vote, or what criteria to use, is wrong, and absolutely contrary to the purpose of this thread.
We have placed an artificial objective construct (point scoring system) on subjective process(art).
And you may say, well, it is done all the time, but when it is done by the general public it is called "popularity." (rather than being done by trained critics or such, if that even be a thing).
A low vote on a popular photo should make the photographer say, "why" not evoke a response of "How dare you! - prove yourself!" |
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05/04/2021 10:36:46 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
It seems to me that, telling people how to vote, or what criteria to use, is wrong, and absolutely contrary to the purpose of this thread.
We have placed an artificial objective construct (point scoring system) on subjective process(art).
And you may say, well, it is done all the time, but when it is done by the general public it is called "popularity." (rather than being done by trained critics or such, if that even be a thing).
A low vote on a popular photo should make the photographer say, "why" not evoke a response of "How dare you! - prove yourself!" |
I agree, but I like discussing why I vote a certain way, low or high. I think it's healthy to explore one's own judgments and opinions, and writing about why you vote a certain way forces you to think about it.
What's funny is that the people pushing for an explanation of low votes are not offering explanations of their high votes. And I understand that photography is a visual medium so many of us are not as adept at verbal expression, and some of us are not native English speakers. But if that's the case, then the same courtesy of not needing to explain should be afforded to low votes.
What bothers me the most is the assumption behind this, that non-conformity needs to be justified. Usually it's focused on low votes, but once I was suspended for voting high on photos that got low scores. I did eventually get that reversed, but it's a frightening idea either way.
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05/04/2021 11:37:21 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
What's funny is that the people pushing for an explanation of low votes are not offering explanations of their high votes. And I understand that photography is a visual medium so many of us are not as adept at verbal expression, and some of us are not native English speakers. But if that's the case, then the same courtesy of not needing to explain should be afforded to low votes.
What bothers me the most is the assumption behind this, that non-conformity needs to be justified. Usually it's focused on low votes, but once I was suspended for voting high on photos that got low scores. I did eventually get that reversed, but it's a frightening idea either way. |
In my case I think I have well explained why I put high marks on certain photos of Gyaban: because he is someone who knows how to edit, who has excellent ideas and knows how to develop them. Non-conformism is always a pearl in the tide of criticism but if it becomes systematic it is also a deadly bore. Criticizing the lighting by quoting Dalì may be there but the parameter should be the same for all the shots and, frankly, I have not seen any Dalì that justifies a higher grade than Gyaban's work in that particular challenge.
This is always my opinion |
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05/04/2021 11:39:42 AM · #66 |
This site has still the merit of some exchange of ideas and for making (guarded) comments.
For approvals or likes there are numerous other sites.
Leaving grand questions aside - "what is art" - and preconceived ideas such as "not my taste" (as if one's taste is cast in stone and will never be encumbered by any new ideas) will liberate us to open our eyes and mind to what is in front of us. And eventually be surprised or intrigued and this might be "art": to see the world, the common things and ideas filtered by someone else)
In fact, I marked the debated creation with 6. For effort. But, as Don mentioned "effort is not art".
Or, more precise, effort will not always be enough. Same in any endeavor. Even in the athletic field.
I had a brief conversation years ago with gyaban. His early work was very interesting to me but then he wanted something else and I am not one to question his trajectory. We all follow a certain path. For an impact on my mind, I would have scored the image with 2 or 3, but there is always in his work a desire to say something important through a fable of sorts only that he puts so much that the main idea gets choked. To me he is an illustrator using photography. Not always for children though!
Moreover, for people who profess to like "pretty pictures", he is not one of them. In which "pretty" means optimistic, colorful images that appeal to the eye but not bringing much else. (I made a pretty picture myself recently and was happy not to see it marked high, but when I took it my eyes were pleased)
In art school yes, debates can become wars, but we are here a bunch of photography enthusiasts.
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05/04/2021 02:33:42 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Sisto:
In my case I think I have well explained why I put high marks on certain photos of Gyaban: because he is someone who knows how to edit, who has excellent ideas and knows how to develop them. |
This is about the photographer, not the photo.
Originally posted by Sisto:
Non-conformism is always a pearl in the tide of criticism but if it becomes systematic it is also a deadly bore. |
This is very amusingly put but I don't know what your point is. Non-conformism had nothing to do with my critique or my 4.
Originally posted by Sisto:
Criticizing the lighting by quoting Dalì may be there but the parameter should be the same for all the shots and, frankly, I have not seen any Dalì that justifies a higher grade than Gyaban's work in that particular challenge.
This is always my opinion |
"the parameter should be the same for all the shots" This is a strange use of "parameter." Are you trying to say that if I compare Gyaban to Dali I must compare every photo to Dali? This is not correct. I specifically mentioned Dali because he also creates complex, fantastical scenes but he does a much better job of lighting them.
It's very hard to talk to you. You do not seem to be understanding my points, and your comments are in turn difficult to understand. I think this is simply a language problem, nothing personal.
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05/05/2021 01:48:14 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Sisto:
In my case I think I have well explained why I put high marks on certain photos of Gyaban: because he is someone who knows how to edit, who has excellent ideas and knows how to develop them. |
This is about the photographer, not the photo.
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It seemed obvious that for me the photo is fantastic from all points of view and I do not find the defects that you have listed
Originally posted by posthumous:
It's very hard to talk to you |
I know, also my wife says this :)
Originally posted by posthumous:
You do not seem to be understanding my points |
incredible, the same words as my wife
Originally posted by posthumous:
I think this is simply a language problem |
now I understand, you are my wife
:) |
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05/05/2021 07:20:30 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by Sisto:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Sisto:
In my case I think I have well explained why I put high marks on certain photos of Gyaban: because he is someone who knows how to edit, who has excellent ideas and knows how to develop them. |
This is about the photographer, not the photo.
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It seemed obvious that for me the photo is fantastic from all points of view and I do not find the defects that you have listed
Originally posted by posthumous:
It's very hard to talk to you |
I know, also my wife says this :)
Originally posted by posthumous:
You do not seem to be understanding my points |
incredible, the same words as my wife
Originally posted by posthumous:
I think this is simply a language problem |
now I understand, you are my wife
:) |
i'm so sorry .. but i found this conversation hilarious .. !!! ..
love your sense of humour Sisto .. :) |
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05/05/2021 07:27:49 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by roz:
Originally posted by Sisto:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Sisto:
In my case I think I have well explained why I put high marks on certain photos of Gyaban: because he is someone who knows how to edit, who has excellent ideas and knows how to develop them. |
This is about the photographer, not the photo.
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It seemed obvious that for me the photo is fantastic from all points of view and I do not find the defects that you have listed
Originally posted by posthumous:
It's very hard to talk to you |
I know, also my wife says this :)
Originally posted by posthumous:
You do not seem to be understanding my points |
incredible, the same words as my wife
Originally posted by posthumous:
I think this is simply a language problem |
now I understand, you are my wife
:) |
i'm so sorry .. but i found this conversation hilarious .. !!! ..
love your sense of humour Sisto .. :) |
+1000 :))) |
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05/05/2021 01:50:35 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Sisto:
now I understand, you are my wife
:) |
smooch |
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05/06/2021 11:21:23 AM · #72 |
And mega smooches to all of you who prefer to give low scores. It keeps this place unpredictable and especially crazed.
Do you think we'll be around to experience another DPL? It seems like it's been a long time. I guess it cannot happen until the site is
updated. I know that Covid screwed things up but does anyone have a clue as to when the new site will be up and running?
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05/06/2021 11:45:41 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by MeMex2:
And mega smooches to all of you who prefer to give low scores. It keeps this place unpredictable and especially crazed.
Do you think we'll be around to experience another DPL? It seems like it's been a long time. I guess it cannot happen until the site is
updated. I know that Covid screwed things up but does anyone have a clue as to when the new site will be up and running? |
Go here for updates on the new site. Thanks. |
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05/07/2021 08:54:03 AM · #74 |
| Hmmm -- Personally, I thought if they don't like my photographs, I thought they were still required to like me! :P |
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05/15/2021 01:47:29 PM · #75 |
I'm going to stir the pot for fun.... (been a while, so why not.)
First, Don, I totally agree with your premise in the OP. But with that being said, let me lay out the main virtue of voting along a fairly unique system (Disclaimer: I have never used this system, and SC can, I suspect, verify the veracity of that statement) where you either think something should move up, down or stay in the middle.
To the tune, the 1,5,10 are really the best votes to cast, as they count the most - and move the image towards the are you think it should be. - To an extreme, if you want to reduce your thoughts to "good/bad" you could even do 1/10 only. Seems reasonable really.
But this is where the theory of selfishness (my vote should count the most it can!) vs. egalitarianism (all votes are equal!) - while historically I've voted as the latter, if I should return, I would likely take the former approach, not only because I really don't mind having the maximum impact with my votes (after all, I've always been a fairly opinionated guy!) but also because it reduces my thought process to "Oh My God NO!" / "Meh, ok, fine, whatever" / "Yeah, dope, this is really cool!"...
That'll make it so much easier to vote - and I'll have a superb impact on every challenge I do vote in. An impact that, for my taste, is totally accurate.
What I don't have time to simulate, but am curious about, is the effect on overall scores. Would it end up like rounding up to every dollar when doing accounting (parity) or would it make a statistically significant difference over a broad spectrum of challenges...
..
Ok, pot stirring done.
I may go give this a shot. 1-5-0 only....
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