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05/16/2021 08:32:56 PM · #1 |
Originally posted by streetpigeon:
Interesting conversation, this. As the rating gradient goes, I'm more on the bland end. Don't feel a desire to make an outsize impact, so I more nudge than bludgeon. More smooth the contours than tame the wilderness. If the image is merely okay, I give it a five. It's not bad, the person tried, and so... If I think it's good, but it doesn't move or excite or impress me, a six. Maybe that's overgenerous, but it's where my logic leads. Seven is very good, eight is very, very good, and so on. It isn't that subjectivity doesn't come into play. It does, but less starkly, since it's part of a graduated approach. "Good," already, is larded with subjectivity. If I find the picture to be "bad", i.e., a misguided jumble, or what seems to be merely mailed in, I'll dip to a four. But I give rather few of those. If it offends my moral sensibility, I'll go lower, but that's happened only a bare handful of times. Personally, I'd find it difficult to choose between a one and a five, or a five and a ten. If the point is to bend the curve to your own opinion, hijack the site, wtf? |
I rather like this explanation of how to vote in such a mannaer that one can participate, leave one's mark on a full vote for a challenge, yet not make anyone feel that they've been chastised.
Voting on this site has always been fraught with frustration and unhappiness, and unfortunately, it's most often when someone's personal, subjective expectations become bruised.
Lashing out accomplishes absolutely nothing but negative reactions and responses. For the most part, one of the things I've always liked about this site is thart most participants are honest.
Why that translates to some people becoming upset eludes me. There are no cash prizes, the voting is anonymous, and the results you get are yours to review to see how your image was received.
The idea that any votes are malicious simply doesn't hold water. This isn't what this site is about. It's really just us asking what the rest of us think of their offering.
What we do with that information is on us. And it the grand scheme, the big picture, it doesn't mean a damn thing.
This is where we go, and the system we use, to gauge ourselves on differfent levels.
I've never had what I get here from anyuone or anywhere else.
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05/16/2021 06:24:28 PM · #2 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Sisto:
now I understand, you are my wife
:) |
smooch |
My favorite exchange... ever on DPC.
LOL!
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05/16/2021 05:46:10 PM · #3 |
Doesn't the one, five, and 10 system violate voting rules? It seems like an attempt to make your votes count more than others.
, Which skews the results.
I've been trying to re-figure my voting. I keep thinking I should give more higher votes -- vote only on the specific challenge. 10 would be the best in the challenge, etc.
But I can't bring myself to give a ten to a photo that's just "meh", even if it is the best "meh" in the challenge
Message edited by author 2021-05-16 17:50:02. |
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05/16/2021 04:12:35 PM · #4 |
| Interesting conversation, this. As the rating gradient goes, I'm more on the bland end. Don't feel a desire to make an outsize impact, so I more nudge than bludgeon. More smooth the contours than tame the wilderness. If the image is merely okay, I give it a five. It's not bad, the person tried, and so... If I think it's good, but it doesn't move or excite or impress me, a six. Maybe that's overgenerous, but it's where my logic leads. Seven is very good, eight is very, very good, and so on. It isn't that subjectivity doesn't come into play. It does, but less starkly, since it's part of a graduated approach. "Good," already, is larded with subjectivity. If I find the picture to be "bad", i.e., a misguided jumble, or what seems to be merely mailed in, I'll dip to a four. But I give rather few of those. If it offends my moral sensibility, I'll go lower, but that's happened only a bare handful of times. Personally, I'd find it difficult to choose between a one and a five, or a five and a ten. If the point is to bend the curve to your own opinion, hijack the site, wtf? |
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05/15/2021 10:42:16 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by Cory:
... let me lay out the main virtue of voting along a fairly unique system (Disclaimer: I have never used this system, and SC can, I suspect, verify the veracity of that statement) where you either think something should move up, down or stay in the middle.
To the tune, the 1,5,10 are really the best votes to cast, as they count the most - and move the image towards the are you think it should be. - To an extreme, if you want to reduce your thoughts to "good/bad" you could even do 1/10 only. Seems reasonable really.
But this is where the theory of selfishness (my vote should count the most it can!) vs. egalitarianism (all votes are equal!) - while historically I've voted as the latter, if I should return, I would likely take the former approach, not only because I really don't mind having the maximum impact with my votes (after all, I've always been a fairly opinionated guy!) but also because it reduces my thought process to "Oh My God NO!" / "Meh, ok, fine, whatever" / "Yeah, dope, this is really cool!"...
That'll make it so much easier to vote - and I'll have a superb impact on every challenge I do vote in. An impact that, for my taste, is totally accurate.
What I don't have time to simulate, but am curious about, is the effect on overall scores. Would it end up like rounding up to every dollar when doing accounting (parity) or would it make a statistically significant difference over a broad spectrum of challenges...
..
Ok, pot stirring done.
I may go give this a shot. 1-5-0 only.... |
I compromise between the former and the latter. I do not want my vote to count more than others but I also want to use most of the 1-10 spectrum because I don't see why I should dilute my vote by voting in a small range. I rarely vote below 3, but not for any logical reason. I just tend to vote 3 for stuff I don't like so I can leave room for stuff that might be worse. I do the same thing for 7s, but in the case of 7s, I go back and bump them up. I don't bother bumping stuff down.
As to impact, your technique would absolutely have an impact in today's low voting environment. I've seen my individual votes change ribbon placement, and that's just with a 4 point difference.
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05/15/2021 02:36:50 PM · #6 |
I found it fascinating that you scored these ones high, thanks for posting, made me look a little harder at them.
I love finding out what people score on other photos, just so I can see where they are coming from and it makes me see others perspective and can and has sometimes made me appreciate a photo more.
Thanks for sharing, I enjoyed looking through them. |
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05/15/2021 01:47:29 PM · #7 |
I'm going to stir the pot for fun.... (been a while, so why not.)
First, Don, I totally agree with your premise in the OP. But with that being said, let me lay out the main virtue of voting along a fairly unique system (Disclaimer: I have never used this system, and SC can, I suspect, verify the veracity of that statement) where you either think something should move up, down or stay in the middle.
To the tune, the 1,5,10 are really the best votes to cast, as they count the most - and move the image towards the are you think it should be. - To an extreme, if you want to reduce your thoughts to "good/bad" you could even do 1/10 only. Seems reasonable really.
But this is where the theory of selfishness (my vote should count the most it can!) vs. egalitarianism (all votes are equal!) - while historically I've voted as the latter, if I should return, I would likely take the former approach, not only because I really don't mind having the maximum impact with my votes (after all, I've always been a fairly opinionated guy!) but also because it reduces my thought process to "Oh My God NO!" / "Meh, ok, fine, whatever" / "Yeah, dope, this is really cool!"...
That'll make it so much easier to vote - and I'll have a superb impact on every challenge I do vote in. An impact that, for my taste, is totally accurate.
What I don't have time to simulate, but am curious about, is the effect on overall scores. Would it end up like rounding up to every dollar when doing accounting (parity) or would it make a statistically significant difference over a broad spectrum of challenges...
..
Ok, pot stirring done.
I may go give this a shot. 1-5-0 only....
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05/07/2021 08:54:03 AM · #8 |
| Hmmm -- Personally, I thought if they don't like my photographs, I thought they were still required to like me! :P |
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05/06/2021 11:45:41 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by MeMex2:
And mega smooches to all of you who prefer to give low scores. It keeps this place unpredictable and especially crazed.
Do you think we'll be around to experience another DPL? It seems like it's been a long time. I guess it cannot happen until the site is
updated. I know that Covid screwed things up but does anyone have a clue as to when the new site will be up and running? |
Go here for updates on the new site. Thanks. |
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05/06/2021 11:21:23 AM · #10 |
And mega smooches to all of you who prefer to give low scores. It keeps this place unpredictable and especially crazed.
Do you think we'll be around to experience another DPL? It seems like it's been a long time. I guess it cannot happen until the site is
updated. I know that Covid screwed things up but does anyone have a clue as to when the new site will be up and running?
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05/05/2021 01:50:35 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by Sisto:
now I understand, you are my wife
:) |
smooch |
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05/05/2021 07:27:49 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by roz:
Originally posted by Sisto:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Sisto:
In my case I think I have well explained why I put high marks on certain photos of Gyaban: because he is someone who knows how to edit, who has excellent ideas and knows how to develop them. |
This is about the photographer, not the photo.
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It seemed obvious that for me the photo is fantastic from all points of view and I do not find the defects that you have listed
Originally posted by posthumous:
It's very hard to talk to you |
I know, also my wife says this :)
Originally posted by posthumous:
You do not seem to be understanding my points |
incredible, the same words as my wife
Originally posted by posthumous:
I think this is simply a language problem |
now I understand, you are my wife
:) |
i'm so sorry .. but i found this conversation hilarious .. !!! ..
love your sense of humour Sisto .. :) |
+1000 :))) |
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05/05/2021 07:20:30 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by Sisto:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Sisto:
In my case I think I have well explained why I put high marks on certain photos of Gyaban: because he is someone who knows how to edit, who has excellent ideas and knows how to develop them. |
This is about the photographer, not the photo.
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It seemed obvious that for me the photo is fantastic from all points of view and I do not find the defects that you have listed
Originally posted by posthumous:
It's very hard to talk to you |
I know, also my wife says this :)
Originally posted by posthumous:
You do not seem to be understanding my points |
incredible, the same words as my wife
Originally posted by posthumous:
I think this is simply a language problem |
now I understand, you are my wife
:) |
i'm so sorry .. but i found this conversation hilarious .. !!! ..
love your sense of humour Sisto .. :) |
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05/05/2021 01:48:14 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Sisto:
In my case I think I have well explained why I put high marks on certain photos of Gyaban: because he is someone who knows how to edit, who has excellent ideas and knows how to develop them. |
This is about the photographer, not the photo.
|
It seemed obvious that for me the photo is fantastic from all points of view and I do not find the defects that you have listed
Originally posted by posthumous:
It's very hard to talk to you |
I know, also my wife says this :)
Originally posted by posthumous:
You do not seem to be understanding my points |
incredible, the same words as my wife
Originally posted by posthumous:
I think this is simply a language problem |
now I understand, you are my wife
:) |
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05/04/2021 02:33:42 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by Sisto:
In my case I think I have well explained why I put high marks on certain photos of Gyaban: because he is someone who knows how to edit, who has excellent ideas and knows how to develop them. |
This is about the photographer, not the photo.
Originally posted by Sisto:
Non-conformism is always a pearl in the tide of criticism but if it becomes systematic it is also a deadly bore. |
This is very amusingly put but I don't know what your point is. Non-conformism had nothing to do with my critique or my 4.
Originally posted by Sisto:
Criticizing the lighting by quoting Dalì may be there but the parameter should be the same for all the shots and, frankly, I have not seen any Dalì that justifies a higher grade than Gyaban's work in that particular challenge.
This is always my opinion |
"the parameter should be the same for all the shots" This is a strange use of "parameter." Are you trying to say that if I compare Gyaban to Dali I must compare every photo to Dali? This is not correct. I specifically mentioned Dali because he also creates complex, fantastical scenes but he does a much better job of lighting them.
It's very hard to talk to you. You do not seem to be understanding my points, and your comments are in turn difficult to understand. I think this is simply a language problem, nothing personal.
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05/04/2021 11:39:42 AM · #16 |
This site has still the merit of some exchange of ideas and for making (guarded) comments.
For approvals or likes there are numerous other sites.
Leaving grand questions aside - "what is art" - and preconceived ideas such as "not my taste" (as if one's taste is cast in stone and will never be encumbered by any new ideas) will liberate us to open our eyes and mind to what is in front of us. And eventually be surprised or intrigued and this might be "art": to see the world, the common things and ideas filtered by someone else)
In fact, I marked the debated creation with 6. For effort. But, as Don mentioned "effort is not art".
Or, more precise, effort will not always be enough. Same in any endeavor. Even in the athletic field.
I had a brief conversation years ago with  gyaban. His early work was very interesting to me but then he wanted something else and I am not one to question his trajectory. We all follow a certain path. For an impact on my mind, I would have scored the image with 2 or 3, but there is always in his work a desire to say something important through a fable of sorts only that he puts so much that the main idea gets choked. To me he is an illustrator using photography. Not always for children though!
Moreover, for people who profess to like "pretty pictures", he is not one of them. In which "pretty" means optimistic, colorful images that appeal to the eye but not bringing much else. (I made a pretty picture myself recently and was happy not to see it marked high, but when I took it my eyes were pleased)
In art school yes, debates can become wars, but we are here a bunch of photography enthusiasts.
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05/04/2021 11:37:21 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
What's funny is that the people pushing for an explanation of low votes are not offering explanations of their high votes. And I understand that photography is a visual medium so many of us are not as adept at verbal expression, and some of us are not native English speakers. But if that's the case, then the same courtesy of not needing to explain should be afforded to low votes.
What bothers me the most is the assumption behind this, that non-conformity needs to be justified. Usually it's focused on low votes, but once I was suspended for voting high on photos that got low scores. I did eventually get that reversed, but it's a frightening idea either way. |
In my case I think I have well explained why I put high marks on certain photos of Gyaban: because he is someone who knows how to edit, who has excellent ideas and knows how to develop them. Non-conformism is always a pearl in the tide of criticism but if it becomes systematic it is also a deadly bore. Criticizing the lighting by quoting Dalì may be there but the parameter should be the same for all the shots and, frankly, I have not seen any Dalì that justifies a higher grade than Gyaban's work in that particular challenge.
This is always my opinion |
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05/04/2021 10:36:46 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
It seems to me that, telling people how to vote, or what criteria to use, is wrong, and absolutely contrary to the purpose of this thread.
We have placed an artificial objective construct (point scoring system) on subjective process(art).
And you may say, well, it is done all the time, but when it is done by the general public it is called "popularity." (rather than being done by trained critics or such, if that even be a thing).
A low vote on a popular photo should make the photographer say, "why" not evoke a response of "How dare you! - prove yourself!" |
I agree, but I like discussing why I vote a certain way, low or high. I think it's healthy to explore one's own judgments and opinions, and writing about why you vote a certain way forces you to think about it.
What's funny is that the people pushing for an explanation of low votes are not offering explanations of their high votes. And I understand that photography is a visual medium so many of us are not as adept at verbal expression, and some of us are not native English speakers. But if that's the case, then the same courtesy of not needing to explain should be afforded to low votes.
What bothers me the most is the assumption behind this, that non-conformity needs to be justified. Usually it's focused on low votes, but once I was suspended for voting high on photos that got low scores. I did eventually get that reversed, but it's a frightening idea either way.
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05/04/2021 10:25:59 AM · #19 |
It seems to me that, telling people how to vote, or what criteria to use, is wrong, and absolutely contrary to the purpose of this thread.
We have placed an artificial objective construct (point scoring system) on subjective process(art).
And you may say, well, it is done all the time, but when it is done by the general public it is called "popularity." (rather than being done by trained critics or such, if that even be a thing).
A low vote on a popular photo should make the photographer say, "why" not evoke a response of "How dare you! - prove yourself!" |
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05/04/2021 09:58:01 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by Venser:
I don't like it should suffice. |
This ^ ^ ^ |
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05/04/2021 09:40:01 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by GolferDDS:
You do not say that you only enjoy "Street Photography and photojournalism" and therefore all other entries are not worthy of your attention. |
My reason for dissent is a little more complicated than that, but simply don't want to elaborate. There's no point. I don't like it should suffice.
Ironically no one is asking for justification on the images I do like, especially the one I consider "best". Go figure.
Originally posted by MargaretNet:
I wish I were an artist but I am a mere photo hobbyist not having any idea what "art" is. |
What is an artist?
Why aren't you one?
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05/04/2021 08:14:45 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by Sisto:
Originally posted by posthumous:
hmmm sounds like you've already made up your mind.... |
Maybe we don't understand each other. It is irrefutable that we will always remain in our positions of thought, it is undeniable that any type of criticism is always welcome and I have already expressed my opinion regarding the use of the term "disgrace".
Regarding your previous post I would not use the word "masterpiece" but a job well done, which is different. If you don't see what I (or most voters) see I can respect it; I just hope you didn't rate my picture better than Gyaban's. |
My mind was elsewhere so I did not contribute here (sorry, Don, but reading through this busy forum I think - lucky me! ;) On reflection I agree that "disgrace" was the wrong word but how would I know it was you who gave one of those 4s! Most others would have ignored my comment :)
PS I wish I were an artist but I am a mere photo hobbyist not having any idea what "art" is. I either like something (usually pretty pictures) or I appreciate something (like good street photography which may not be pretty), and occasionally I am blown away. There are currently three DPCers who post work that I am blown away with, one of them is gyaban. I am always amazed with his work, it is incredible! The amount of thought he puts into his creations, great photography and the seamless editing are out of this small hobbyist world (it is my personal opinion, of course ;)
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05/04/2021 04:00:24 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
hmmm sounds like you've already made up your mind.... |
Maybe we don't understand each other. It is irrefutable that we will always remain in our positions of thought, it is undeniable that any type of criticism is always welcome and I have already expressed my opinion regarding the use of the term "disgrace".
Regarding your previous post I would not use the word "masterpiece" but a job well done, which is different. If you don't see what I (or most voters) see I can respect it; I just hope you didn't rate my picture better than Gyaban's. |
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05/04/2021 01:53:14 AM · #24 |
what great tutorials . didnt know they were there .. i especially love the 3 steps for voting on artistic photographs .. actually loved them all .. so many of the things you spoke about resonated with me .. thankyou Don for your very wise words ... :) |
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05/03/2021 11:43:23 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by GolferDDS:
Don, Yes. Thank You. That is exactly an example of an explanation that defines the criteria that you chose to score this photo example. If I received a comment like this I might disagree, but I would value the thought, interpretation and expression that was used to critique it. You do not say that you only enjoy "Street Photography and photojournalism" and therefore all other entries are not worthy of your attention. You see the good and bad in all genre's of photography that appear in the challenges and have come up with a scoring system that works for you. I would hope that everyone would take this approach. |
I share your spirit for robust critique and debate but I've found that people sometimes take offense when I do this. |
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