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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> You Don't Have to Like Ribbon Winners
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04/28/2021 10:57:25 AM · #1
Over a week ago, someone commented on a blue ribbon photo and said that people who voted 4 or 5 were a disgrace to the DPC community. I'm not going to name this person and I tried to contact them privately, but they have not responded to me, and meanwhile, this comment remains on the site and anyone who clicked on the ribbon winner probably saw it.

Indeed I did vote 4 on that photo and did not appreciate that my opinion was being called a disgrace to the community. I am quite used to photos I love being littered with votes of 4 and lower. I do not think these votes are a disgrace to anything or anyone.

But I'm not starting a thread to defend myself. My concern is that such a comment sits out there unquestioned, and now it is off the front page so simply replying to the comment is not enough. So I am putting this here:

It is OK to dislike something that 95% of people like. Your aesthetic is highly subjective, and it should be. You should cultivate an individual appreciation for art. You should not be looking around to see what other people think. Sure you can learn things from other people. That's one of the main ways of learning things! But there is a difference between learning and conforming. More people listen to Cardi B than Chopin. That doesn't mean that Cardi B is better than Chopin.

I'm well aware that some people on this site think that there are objective standards of photographic skill and that the best thing this site could do is help photographers improve along those standards. They are free to believe that, and vote accordingly. But they should not be suppressing other votes through shaming. They can even start threads to promote their objective standards, and we can have a healthy debate about it. Knock yourselves out and I look forward to debating you and showing you some awesome historical evidence about competing traditions and ideas.

But no shaming.

No "Love It or Leave It"

Far from protecting the "grace" of the community, you are attacking the spirit of community when you try to shame people for nonconformity. A good community appreciates diversity. Non-diverse communities stagnate and die off.

04/28/2021 11:07:32 AM · #2
Maybe this would be a good place for links to the Tutorials on commenting and voting?
04/28/2021 11:08:23 AM · #3
Agreed. Universal acclaim exists only under dictatorship, which isn't exactly a great model.

And who knows, Cardi B may love Chopin?
04/28/2021 11:22:30 AM · #4
Originally posted by gyaban:

Agreed. Universal acclaim exists only under dictatorship, which isn't exactly a great model.

And who knows, Cardi B may love Chopin?


I had a feeling you would agree. You have always been supremely chill and I appreciate it.

Maybe Cardi B is playing some Chopin right now.
04/28/2021 11:28:06 AM · #5
I agree with everything you've said and would have voted similarly. I rarely agree with a lot of the voting at DPC and I'm ok with that. Others should be too.
04/28/2021 11:33:26 AM · #6
In my mind, photography is about story telling. While I can (ad have) read Chaucer, it's too much work to use him for escapist literature. At the same time, reading stories written by people who are not exactly literate doesn't mean the story isn't good.

I rate pictures as 4 or 5 if they don't speak to me but are technically good. That's not a reflection on the merits of the photo -- simply of how it impacts me. I thought that's what we were supposed to do, even if it's my photo getting a 4 (or 3 or 2 or 1).
04/28/2021 12:49:06 PM · #7
I frequently have images that I liked the most (i.e. voted highest) in a challenge not match up to the average "norm".

Hence, I started this thread years ago Ö Top Challenge picks that failed to make the Top 10

I have also found that, at least in the past, starting a thread or conversation about real thoughts concerning an image that made the front page usually ended up not going so well.

It's a little ironic given the title / description of the "Challenge Results" forum section.
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04/28/2021 01:12:40 PM · #8
I did not vote on this challenge nor did I enter, but this discussion is valuable and I have hopes for high participation so here goes. Very simplistically, when discussing art and appreciating art, I believe every opinion is worthy because every person is different. Our exposures to the world around us makes us who we are, therefore giving reason to varying opinions.

I know that my views and my votes often don't coincide with the DPC favorites. My artistic and esthetic likes and dislikes are based on my experiences, which do not necessarily include lots of technical knowledge. I can appreciate the time and work involved in technical precision, but it's the end result that matters to me. I look for photographs that have a wow factor, by that I mean they make an impact on my sensitivities. I may look at a photograph and say "wow, that was a lot of work" but if it doesn't do anything for me esthetically, I will not reward it for that alone.

As to the comment(or), think about how boring DPC would be if we and our neighbors each voted the same number on every image (or left the same comment!). As a community we should be encouraging opinion and not calling it out.

To the General's point, I will reread the tutorials but I do not think I will find them giving instructions on which images deserve to be rewarded at which rank.
04/28/2021 01:49:33 PM · #9
Originally posted by PennyStreet:

To the General's point, I will reread the tutorials but I do not think I will find them giving instructions on which images deserve to be rewarded at which rank.


I should hope not. Art is subjectively appreciated. Period, end of story.

I can't imagine an image that would garner either universal 10's or universal 1's. There are almost always outlying votes. I get to vote on images my way, and, as you say, that's influenced by everything I've encountered in my life. So there are certain technical characteristics that I find difficult, and I vote very highly on a good image with those characteristics. I appreciate what it took to get it. But I also vote highly on images that trigger an emotive response from me, and over the years the ones that do have gotten more and more varied. There are images I wouldn't have looked twice at before that I now find myself appreciating (I completely blame DPC for that). I love a well-told story, or an image that's really interesting to explore and triggers my imagination, but I'm not totally averse to eye candy LOL. So my top picks may or may not match the voting average for any given challenge, just like my score may or may not show I've managed to appeal to a broad swath of the voters. Which is fine. To each his own. I never resent a low vote received, and I hope people don't resent a low vote given. To their image or anyone else's.
04/28/2021 01:57:34 PM · #10
Fully agree with the initial post. I would even wish for more non conformity than exists today. I wish that would be combined with people explaining then how the image did come across to them, what they saw, how it affected them, what they saw as the story or message (if at all), what they liked or disliked.
04/28/2021 02:01:38 PM · #11
the strength of this site is the ability to learn from it. I have asked for clarification from Don, Unique, etc., in the past, and I find it quite interesting. I have learned much from looking at other's point of view. And I truly hope that these discussions go both ways. That perhaps they also may look at things a bit differently. But there are two things to be learned:

1. Looking at something differently, with eyes more open, doesn't mean you agree. Just that you understand where that person is coming from. Knowledge is power. You just need to decide how much it matters.
2. Being able to see things through another person's eyes changes the way you view things. Again -- you don't become like that person, but the influence may show up in other ways. Every piece of the whole enriches us if given a chance.

My tastes have evolved significantly over the last 12 years, or however long I've been here.

I still wish there was a way of critiquing the challenge after it's over. But people tend to get rather emotional over it. I would love to take the cat challenge, for example, and discuss it. Be able to discuss the challenge, the topic, the voting, the results.

Perhaps we need a challenge called "No holds barred: This challenge will be discussed in depth after voting has ended. If you do not want to hear any critiques (positive or negative) do not enter this challenge. People will be giving their honest thoughts regarding the entries, the challenge topic, and anything relating to that challenge. We will try to keep things civil. But be aware there may be people who just really don't like your shot. If you can handle that -- enter!"
04/28/2021 02:22:22 PM · #12


Originally posted by vawendy:

I still wish there was a way of critiquing the challenge after it's over. But people tend to get rather emotional over it. I would love to take the cat challenge, for example, and discuss it. Be able to discuss the challenge, the topic, the voting, the results.


I guess I haven't been around much but that's surprising to hear. I assumed this was already happening here.

Originally posted by vawendy:

Perhaps we need a challenge called "No holds barred: This challenge will be discussed in depth after voting has ended. If you do not want to hear any critiques (positive or negative) do not enter this challenge. People will be giving their honest thoughts regarding the entries, the challenge topic, and anything relating to that challenge. We will try to keep things civil. But be aware there may be people who just really don't like your shot. If you can handle that -- enter!"


I LOVE THIS IDEA!!! :D
04/28/2021 02:22:29 PM · #13
Originally posted by vawendy:

I still wish there was a way of critiquing the challenge after it's over. But people tend to get rather emotional over it. I would love to take the cat challenge, for example, and discuss it. Be able to discuss the challenge, the topic, the voting, the results.

It has always confused me that we seem to always discuss the challenges during the submission phase (to see what we "should" enter?) but almost never discuss the results except for the few threads like Barry's and Don's ...

One way to avoid excess emotion might be to "automatically" have a discussion about finishers strictly by placement (so no one is being singled-out), for example
-11th place -- what would have made it a top-10
-40th percentile (hopefully not the same image!) -- what would have made it better than "pretty good"
-60th percentile -- how to get into the top half
-4th-from-last (hopefully not the same image!) -- why did this not resonate with the voters
04/28/2021 02:24:18 PM · #14
Always good to be reminded of the true virtues of this site.

I agree with ' . substr('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' vawendy about wanting more discussion/critique after the fact. When we had the team thing, and gave awards I think we did do that.

Although sometimes I like being a "disgrace."

04/28/2021 04:00:26 PM · #15
Originally posted by tnun:


Although sometimes I like being a "disgrace."

:-D
04/28/2021 05:11:44 PM · #16
Originally posted by tnun:

Always good to be reminded of the true virtues of this site.

I agree with ' . substr('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' vawendy about wanting more discussion/critique after the fact. When we had the team thing, and gave awards I think we did do that.

Although sometimes I like being a "disgrace."


By "team thing" do you mean DPL? DPL was great! Guaranteed critiques of every entry by your teammates, which I thought was awesome. Smaller audience than a sitewide critique, but valuable nonetheless.
04/28/2021 06:46:20 PM · #17
Originally posted by vawendy:



I still wish there was a way of critiquing the challenge after it's over. But people tend to get rather emotional over it. I would love to take the cat challenge, for example, and discuss it. Be able to discuss the challenge, the topic, the voting, the results.

Perhaps we need a challenge called "No holds barred: This challenge will be discussed in depth after voting has ended. If you do not want to hear any critiques (positive or negative) do not enter this challenge. People will be giving their honest thoughts regarding the entries, the challenge topic, and anything relating to that challenge. We will try to keep things civil. But be aware there may be people who just really don't like your shot. If you can handle that -- enter!"


Yes, please!

But, don't make it a Free Study, please. Make it a real topic.

I'm interested in finding out how people vote on whether it meets the challenge... or if it's just a pretty photograph and they don't care whether it meets the challenge.

04/28/2021 08:43:11 PM · #18
Originally posted by Lydia:

Originally posted by vawendy:



I still wish there was a way of critiquing the challenge after it's over. But people tend to get rather emotional over it. I would love to take the cat challenge, for example, and discuss it. Be able to discuss the challenge, the topic, the voting, the results.

Perhaps we need a challenge called "No holds barred: This challenge will be discussed in depth after voting has ended. If you do not want to hear any critiques (positive or negative) do not enter this challenge. People will be giving their honest thoughts regarding the entries, the challenge topic, and anything relating to that challenge. We will try to keep things civil. But be aware there may be people who just really don't like your shot. If you can handle that -- enter!"


Yes, please!

But, don't make it a Free Study, please. Make it a real topic.

I'm interested in finding out how people vote on whether it meets the challenge... or if it's just a pretty photograph and they don't care whether it meets the challenge.


definitely should be a real topic -- not freestudy
04/28/2021 09:50:54 PM · #19
Originally posted by Lydia:

I'm interested in finding out how people vote on whether it meets the challenge... or if it's just a pretty photograph and they don't care whether it meets the challenge.

How long have you been here? ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30049/800/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_831514.gif', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30049/800/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_831514.gif', '/') + 1) . '
04/28/2021 11:09:56 PM · #20
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Lydia:

I'm interested in finding out how people vote on whether it meets the challenge... or if it's just a pretty photograph and they don't care whether it meets the challenge.

How long have you been here? ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30049/800/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_831514.gif', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30049/800/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_831514.gif', '/') + 1) . '


Iím a newbie.



Message edited by author 2021-04-28 23:11:32.
04/29/2021 08:01:42 AM · #21
Originally posted by Lydia:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Lydia:

I'm interested in finding out how people vote on whether it meets the challenge... or if it's just a pretty photograph and they don't care whether it meets the challenge.

How long have you been here? ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30049/800/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_831514.gif', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30049/800/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_831514.gif', '/') + 1) . '


Iím a newbie.


Beware of the dreaded DNMC =:-O
04/29/2021 11:10:40 AM · #22
Originally posted by posthumous:

Non-diverse communities stagnate and die off.

Or they become an echo chamber where dissenting views are pushed out quite rapidly.
04/29/2021 11:22:07 AM · #23
Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Non-diverse communities stagnate and die off.

Or they become an echo chamber where dissenting views are pushed out quite rapidly.


Exactly.
04/29/2021 05:16:06 PM · #24
i'm wondering if the person who said the ppl who voted 4 or 5 were a disgrace to the dpc community was coming from a different place than what has been discussed in this thread ..

is it possible that they were referring to the feeling .. which is something i know other ppl have spoken about .. that some ppl vote other photos down in an attempt to increase their chances of doing better a challenge .. that's not so much a disgrace .. but a sad reflection on the less positive side of human nature ..

that to me would be a much more likely scenario .. as voting what you honestly feel a photo is worth really cant be argued against .. especially as we all have different likes and dislikes .. and what appeals to one may not appeal to another ..
just my 1 cent worth .. :)
04/29/2021 06:12:32 PM · #25
Originally posted by roz:

i'm wondering if the person who said the ppl who voted 4 or 5 were a disgrace to the dpc community was coming from a different place than what has been discussed in this thread ..

Probably not given the history.

Originally posted by roz:

is it possible that they were referring to the feeling .. which is something i know other ppl have spoken about .. that some ppl vote other photos down in an attempt to increase their chances of doing better a challenge .. that's not so much a disgrace .. but a sad reflection on the less positive side of human nature ..

Unless there's proof, I find this language as bad as what posthumous brought up.
That's there's some nefarious plot to elevate one's own image.

Can't people just accept that you put a photo out there to be voted on, and it's a highly subjective endeavor which may not align with others views.
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