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09/10/2018 12:19:01 PM · #26 |
Don didn't need put someone else down. He could have voiced his thoughts without taking a shot ... just like Prasad did.
edit to add: is this a critique, or no?
Originally posted by posthumous:
Don't minimize it now by asking to have a challenge catered to you. It is elitism to do so. And winning challenges is a populist achievement, not elitist. |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by hopper:
Originally posted by posthumous:
sorry, but that is not a valid critique. |
... but your critique is valid? |
Don pointed out that ALL photography rewards serendipity. That's a statement of fact, not a critique. |
Message edited by author 2018-09-10 12:22:04. |
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09/10/2018 12:32:21 PM · #27 |
The thread is not about divisiveness of political landsacpes like Don pointed out.
if its a final challenge where only the two teams enters and rest all votes, then its a fair result. but if others also enters and there is low turnout similar to a challenge like "bread II" then it does impact the percentiles isnt it? Jake's chart illustrates how irrelevant this challange could be for both teams or either one if there is a low turnout of entries. already two people who commented below said they wanted to sit back and relax. if you say thats how it is and move on with it, fine. end of the day win and lose is part of life, the journey is what matters.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by hopper:
Originally posted by posthumous:
sorry, but that is not a valid critique. |
... but your critique is valid? |
Don pointed out that ALL photography rewards serendipity. That's a statement of fact, not a critique. |
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09/10/2018 12:39:32 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by amdprasad:
. . . already two people who commented below said they wanted to sit back and relax. . . . |
Who said this? I can't find ANYONE in the thread who said this.
My comment was to the contrary, and I quote: "I had no intention of shooting for this challenge . . . but shoot and enter I will. And I hope that many many others will step up as well."
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09/10/2018 12:45:29 PM · #29 |
I love being reminded of the serendipitous nature of photography. And of life.
I do agree that vegetable bestiary is utter nonsense, brillig nonsense.
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09/10/2018 12:47:18 PM · #30 |
sorry, i thought ur intention was not to shoot for this challenge, but the thread have made you to shoot. if thats not the case i am extremely sorry. if there is good turn out, i dont have any issues with the theme. my point is that the theme is such that not many people may be interested to enter, just like the Bread II theme and that would create a huge difference in the results for the two teams Originally posted by nam:
Originally posted by amdprasad:
. . . already two people who commented below said they wanted to sit back and relax. . . . |
Who said this? I can't find ANYONE in the thread who said this.
My comment was to the contrary, and I quote: "I had no intention of shooting for this challenge . . . but shoot and enter I will. And I hope that many many others will step up as well." |
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09/10/2018 01:01:55 PM · #31 |
Since the DPL scoring is based on percentiles, not vote average, I don't see how either the subject matter or number of participants materially affects the results -- if you rank higher than your opponent you win (whether your winning score is 6.4 or 4.6), and if you rank lower you lose, regardless of how many other participants may finish between you ...
And shouldn't the "Finals" be a "challenge"?
I enter almost every challenge (1980/2722 so far), so you can all be pretty sure of finishing at least one place higher than predicted ... ;-)
Message edited by author 2018-09-10 13:02:23. |
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09/10/2018 01:05:31 PM · #32 |
It is a bit like finding Jesus on your toast in the morning.
Probably better if it was just a vegetable shoot.
I am going to shoot for it though, we could see the likes of the meteor shower nonsense! =\ |
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09/10/2018 01:14:32 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Since the DPL scoring is based on percentiles, not vote average, I don't see how either the subject matter or number of participants materially affects the results -- if you rank higher than your opponent you win (whether your winning score is 6.4 or 4.6), and if you rank lower you lose, regardless of how many other participants may finish between you ...
And shouldn't the "Finals" be a "challenge"?
I enter almost every challenge (1980/2722 so far), so you can all be pretty sure of finishing at least one place higher than predicted ... ;-) |
And this is where you all are missing the point.
Let's say Golden Ratio gets 50 entries, which is what we saw last week. The scores based on where you place would be as follows:
1 100.00%
2 97.96%
3 95.92%
4 93.88%
5 91.84%
6 89.80%
7 87.76%
8 85.71%
9 83.67%
10 81.63%
11 79.59%
12 77.55%
13 75.51%
14 73.47%
15 71.43%
16 69.39%
17 67.35%
18 65.31%
19 63.27%
20 61.22%
21 59.18%
22 57.14%
23 55.10%
24 53.06%
25 51.02%
26 48.98%
27 46.94%
28 44.90%
29 42.86%
30 40.82%
31 38.78%
32 36.73%
33 34.69%
34 32.65%
35 30.61%
36 28.57%
37 26.53%
38 24.49%
39 22.45%
40 20.41%
41 18.37%
42 16.33%
43 14.29%
44 12.24%
45 10.20%
46 8.16%
47 6.12%
48 4.08%
49 2.04%
50 0.00%
And let's say that, as was posited, that this second challenge offers some sort of mano-a-mano slugfest to determine who is best, and so we only get the 14 finalists entering. Scoring would be...
1 100.00%
2 92.31%
3 84.62%
4 76.92%
5 69.23%
6 61.54%
7 53.85%
8 46.15%
9 38.46%
10 30.77%
11 23.08%
12 15.38%
13 7.69%
14 0.00%
As we saw last week the top finishers in both competitions were from the DPL Semifinalists. If that follows the likelihood that anyone other than the 1st and 2nd place finishers from the vegetable challenge having any meaning in the scores is negated by the fact that the top 8 finishers in the first challenge score better than the 3rd place finisher in the other.
The imbalance that will result from a challenge that does not motivate participation is the crime here.
You want to square 2 teams off? Then make the final challenges such that only finalists enter and only non-participants vote. This, again, from a competition point of view is utter, indefensible garbage. |
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09/10/2018 01:22:38 PM · #34 |
percentiles varies based on the number of people entered. and since one best percentile between two challenges counts, the one with more participants has more probability of getting you the best percentile irrespective of what the average vote is and what the theme is.
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09/10/2018 01:23:49 PM · #35 |
| Trying to beat the logic into your heads, one team could sweep the top 4 spots in the vegetable challenge and still lose to a team whose best image in Golden Ratio is a 5th place. The inequity of that is so utterly obvious. |
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09/10/2018 01:24:05 PM · #36 |
percentiles varies based on the number of people entered. and since one best percentile between two challenges counts, the one with more participants has more probability of getting you the best percentile irrespective of what the average vote is and what the theme is.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Since the DPL scoring is based on percentiles, not vote average, I don't see how either the subject matter or number of participants materially affects the results -- if you rank higher than your opponent you win (whether your winning score is 6.4 or 4.6), and if you rank lower you lose, regardless of how many other participants may finish between you ...
And shouldn't the "Finals" be a "challenge"?
I enter almost every challenge (1980/2722 so far), so you can all be pretty sure of finishing at least one place higher than predicted ... ;-) |
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09/10/2018 01:51:42 PM · #37 |
The only thing I have to say about this is that I'd rather it be vegetables AND/OR FRUITS.
But, I do admit that I like the topic much more than some of the others we've had. At least this one is fun! :D
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09/10/2018 01:54:52 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Lydia:
The only thing I have to say about this is that I'd rather it be vegetables AND/OR FRUITS.
But, I do admit that I like the topic much more than some of the others we've had. At least this one is fun! :D |
I'll back that :)
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09/10/2018 02:00:42 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by amdprasad:
sorry, i thought ur intention was not to shoot for this challenge, but the thread have made you to shoot. if thats not the case i am extremely sorry. . . . |
No, you understood me correctly. But I thought the crux of Jake's original argument . . . other than the fact that he thinks the topic is stupid . . . was that low entry numbers would somehow invalidate the challenge. I was just trying to step up and say, "Well, if that's the case, let's see whether we can make sure that the number of entries is NOT super low."
And the more I think about it, the less I see the original point(s). Everyone on both teams will have an equal chance. It's not as if Team Iceland was in the running and SC picked "Icelandic Landscapes" for a topic.
But this is not really my "problem" - I was just trying to offer a constructive approach to something others seemed to feel was a problem.
And I'm outta here but please, don't anyone think you have in any way offended me :) |
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09/10/2018 03:06:10 PM · #40 |
So set the record straight I don't think the topic is stupid, I think it's a stupid topic for a DPL finals challenge, particularly at a site where participation in "quirky" challenges has always been low, and where it was nearly non-existent on "normal" challenges before the DPL, something we've seen come back almost immediately after the regular rounds ended.
And I even neglected to mention that it is offered as the Member Only challenge this week, further guaranteeing that participation is low.
As with so many things here the answer from the powers that be is that no matter how much we neglect to get things right, when the votes are in it all comes out in the wash because we're all swimming in the same pool.
I'll spare you all the final editorial comment. |
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09/10/2018 03:10:48 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:
I don't think the topic is stupid |
I do.
:P |
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09/10/2018 03:57:39 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by hopper:
Originally posted by posthumous:
sorry, but that is not a valid critique. |
... but your critique is valid? |
I explained why his critique was not valid, which you conveniently cut out. If you want to pick a specific critique of mine and explain why it's not valid, go right ahead.
As to arguments about number of participants, I already addressed that. |
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09/10/2018 04:31:31 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by hopper:
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:
I don't think the topic is stupid |
I do.
:P |
I do, too.
Why not change it to "What Makes You Happy?". A wonderful suggestion from a challenge thread a few weeks ago. Also a player leveling theme. It might lighten the mood around here. :-)
Message edited by author 2018-09-10 16:31:56. |
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09/10/2018 05:01:16 PM · #44 |
Will the person who chose Vegetable Bestiary (Don?) for the DPL final please elaborate on the parameters? Are we crafting animal shapes out of vegetables?
Are there any rules? Is this what you had in mind?
https://www.hgtv.com/design/make.../cute-critters-made-from-fruits-and-veggies-picture...
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09/10/2018 05:11:13 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by hopper:
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:
I don't think the topic is stupid |
I do.
:P |
OK, so do I. But that wasn't the point of my initial post. We've done stupid topics in DPL before. :p |
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09/10/2018 05:42:47 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by MeMex2:
Will the person who chose Vegetable Bestiary (Don?) for the DPL final please elaborate on the parameters? Are we crafting animal shapes out of vegetables?
Are there any rules? Is this what you had in mind?
https://www.hgtv.com/design/make.../cute-critters-made-from-fruits-and-veggies-picture... |
Fixed that for ya.
Yes, please do. I don't think most of us have time to look for shriveled vegetables that might resemble a beast of some sort. Well, I don't, anyway. |
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09/10/2018 06:27:58 PM · #47 |
Here's the original suggestion post.
That's all I'm saying at the moment other than how mean and childish some of you on the 2 final teams are being. Grow up ffs, rise to the challenge or don't. That's your choice. |
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09/10/2018 06:32:48 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by MeMex2:
Will the person who chose Vegetable Bestiary (Don?) for the DPL final please elaborate on the parameters? Are we crafting animal shapes out of vegetables?
Are there any rules? |
The only "rules", as always, are Standard Editing. Whatever the original proposer ( krnodil, not Don) of the challenge had in mind, as always, is essentially irrelevant: the shooters and the voters will make of it what they will. The challenge DESCRIPTION says "Take a vegetable or vegetables and express photographically the animal(s) you see within them." It's up to you to interpret this challenge creatively and effectively.
As far as I'm concerned, it's a very interesting challenge. I'm aware of the ramifications of fewer entries = a compressed percentile spread but to be honest I think that moves both ways, in the sense that if you have a LOT of entries then some relatively mediocre scores can contribute some relatively juicy numbers to a team, so I can't honestly feel this is a big deal. Of course, that's just my point of view, and I realize others disagree.
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09/10/2018 06:33:29 PM · #49 |
| What Rachel just said. Time to make lemonade. |
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09/10/2018 06:42:56 PM · #50 |
This one and my previous I was typing as RKT posted hers, apparently:
For the record, I think this is an incredible kerfuffle over nothing. This is a totally level-field challenge that calls for some serious thought and creativity. Both teams are dealing with exactly the same issues regarding participation and scoring, and both teams are counting scores from TWO challenges towards this final round, so what's the huge fuss?
When certain individuals get themselves all worked up and resort to badgering/hectoring administration over challenge topics, for heaven's sake, including sly insinuations of boycott discussions, that's just not very acceptable communication IMO. And that's all I'm gonna allow myself to say on that, for the moment :-(
Message edited by author 2018-09-10 18:43:39. |
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