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DPChallenge Forums >> The DPL >> Vegetable Bestiary is utter nonsense. Here's why.
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09/10/2018 08:09:09 AM · #1
Seriously, folks?!

I know we both have to shoot them, but this is a freaking joke. Effectively you've given us a challenge that absolutely no one who doesn't have to shoot for it is going to shoot. So we'll get, what, maybe 20 entries?! It was bad enough that the first round of the playoffs saw a precipitous drop in participation, meaning that team averages were swayed by more than 1/2 point for every place you dropped (that's >2 points per spot divided by 4). The difference in one position in this challenge will likely change your team average by 2-3 points, effectively making this challenge a winner take all - if you enter it!! Think about it, if you think you have a strong Golden Ratio shot then why even enter this?! We could see the likes of the meteor shower nonsense with the brown finishing in the top 20, if not the top 10. And remember, score doesn't matter - where you finish does!! You could score a high 6, finish 3rd, and generate a score in the 60th percentile!!

I get that you want to make the challenges challenging, but on behalf of everyone else who's thinking it this topic is utter bullshit, folks. It's nonsense. It changes everything about the tournament. It's not in the spirit of prior years where, while somewhat vague, the challenges allowed for multiple interpretations of the challenge topic.

This is a formal protest on behalf of my team, and frankly anyone and everyone who participates in this place. Seriously, who the hell would shoot for this if they didn't have to?! I can think of 3 people. You need to change it and change it now.
09/10/2018 08:18:44 AM · #2
Providing data:

During season 3 the final challenges generated 74 and 66 entries each. Last week's challenges, with 4 teams participating, couldn't even generate that. And now you give us something that will seriously be lucky to bring in 5 people not in the DPL.

All it would take would be for 2 people not involved in the challenge to produce the type of beautiful studio work that they normally do to effectively render every other competitor in this challenge out of the running in terms of contributing scores. And I know in writing this that I am effectively cutting the legs off of one of the people on my team who could do wonders with this topic.

The lack of thought that went into this is unbelievable.
09/10/2018 08:35:13 AM · #3
More data...

Just take a look at the percentile table and how precipitously it drops from place to place as the numbers dwindle.

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/155000-159999/156466/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1225998.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/155000-159999/156466/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1225998.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Then realize there are only 14 photographers here for which this challenge is in any way meaningful.

It's moronic because the scoring method here relies on participation - something you've utterly squashed with the topic. Remember, if only people who have an affinity for this challenge enter then a photograph with a score in the high 6's could finish 5th and have no contribution to the team, even though it may be in the top 2 or 3 scoring images for the team that week based on voting.

I'm done making my point. Again, utter BS.

Message edited by author 2018-09-10 08:43:50.
09/10/2018 08:37:55 AM · #4
while I don't share Jake's energy on this outrage, I do agree with him ... the challenge topic is ridiculous

our team even thought about pitching a boycott by both teams

I want to be a photographer, not a vegetable carving specialist

Message edited by author 2018-09-10 08:40:19.
09/10/2018 08:46:47 AM · #5
Originally posted by hopper:

while I don't share Jake's energy on this outrage, I do agree with him ... the challenge topic is ridiculous

our team even thought about pitching a boycott by both teams

I want to be a photographer, not a vegetable carving specialist


Was just going to PM you but I like the openness of the discussion.

I don't want a boycott, nor do I want to make this rely on one of two challenges, the first of which I'm sure many of us have already put considerable work into. They can change this immediately and not impact the competition, which is precisely the reason for my "energy". This can't wait until tomorrow to fix.

I suppose at this point we simply await their reply.
09/10/2018 08:51:23 AM · #6
Originally posted by hopper:

I want to be a photographer, not a vegetable carving specialist

I think you are supposed to FIND a beast-like vegetable, not MAKE one ...

Message edited by author 2018-09-10 08:51:47.
09/10/2018 08:53:21 AM · #7
either task has nothing to do with photography

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by hopper:

I want to be a photographer, not a vegetable carving specialist

I think you are supposed to FIND a beast-like vegetable, not MAKE one ...
09/10/2018 08:58:27 AM · #8
And will generate zero participation - which is the heart and soul of my point

Originally posted by hopper:

either task has nothing to do with photography

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by hopper:

I want to be a photographer, not a vegetable carving specialist

I think you are supposed to FIND a beast-like vegetable, not MAKE one ...
09/10/2018 09:04:26 AM · #9
This year's DPL is much more fun than I thought it would be.
09/10/2018 09:04:48 AM · #10
This is side-challenge material, and definitely not for the Final of the DPL challenge. Hugely disappointed - a massive anti-climax.
09/10/2018 09:20:31 AM · #11
I hope the person who selected this challenge will reconsider it. It is a preschool discussion project rather than a final in a 3 month
photography competition ..imho. xxx
09/10/2018 09:33:17 AM · #12
I'll take preschool over high school any day of the week.
09/10/2018 09:55:10 AM · #13
+1 this is an absurd challenge for the final of DPL - hope it is not too late for someone to clean up this mess
09/10/2018 09:56:36 AM · #14
In the interest of showing that I do understand why this may have been chosen, as was said by someone on my team "it levels the playing field, doesn't play to anyone's strong suit", to which I heartily agree. So had it been chosen during weeks 1-5 when the "playing field" was full of players I would have griped internally but gone out and shot.

There are many challenges that level the playing field and inspire one to compete. How this was chosen, again, is beyond me. It's more scavenger hunt than photo challenge, favoring those with access to both vegetables and farmers markets, and those with access to time to get to them during the week so panic doesn't ensue on Saturday so you can find something to shoot on Sunday. It still would have sucked as the Tuesday challenge but at least it would give working photographers time.

Have I mentioned how dismally un-thought-out this challenge selection was?
09/10/2018 10:25:57 AM · #15
Tempted as I am to sit back and enjoy the spectacle, there are aspects to this thread that I find disturbing and remind me of the divisiveness of political landscapes these days.

You don't mean to be insulting and inconsiderate. You honestly can't imagine that someone would think this is a good challenge topic, an interesting and inspiring idea. But actually some of us do. And even if we don't score as high as you, our opinion matters just as much.

As to your arguments about reducing participation, that is unproven and unprovable, like so many political assumptions, because we can't rewind the Universe and try again with a different topic. You think it will reduce participation because you don't like it. And you gather people who agree with you into a little bubble, and tell the rest of us that your bubble represents our opinion. It does not.

The Hit Squad and Nil managed to get to the Finals by competing against everyone in the DPL, and by pleasing the most voters across all the swath of aesthetics and opinions. Congratulations. That is an accomplishment. Don't minimize it now by asking to have a challenge catered to you. It is elitism to do so. And winning challenges is a populist achievement, not elitist.

Message edited by author 2018-09-10 10:27:05.
09/10/2018 10:39:27 AM · #16
we are on the same page

Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

In the interest of showing that I do understand why this may have been chosen, as was said by someone on my team "it levels the playing field, doesn't play to anyone's strong suit", to which I heartily agree. So had it been chosen during weeks 1-5 when the "playing field" was full of players I would have griped internally but gone out and shot.

There are many challenges that level the playing field and inspire one to compete. How this was chosen, again, is beyond me. It's more scavenger hunt than photo challenge, favoring those with access to both vegetables and farmers markets, and those with access to time to get to them during the week so panic doesn't ensue on Saturday so you can find something to shoot on Sunday. It still would have sucked as the Tuesday challenge but at least it would give working photographers time.

Have I mentioned how dismally un-thought-out this challenge selection was?
09/10/2018 10:41:05 AM · #17
as some one said below, we have to find vegetables. and those who find "bingo" have a great shot.
Originally posted by posthumous:

Tempted as I am to sit back and enjoy the spectacle, there are aspects to this thread that I find disturbing and remind me of the divisiveness of political landscapes these days.

You don't mean to be insulting and inconsiderate. You honestly can't imagine that someone would think this is a good challenge topic, an interesting and inspiring idea. But actually some of us do. And even if we don't score as high as you, our opinion matters just as much.

As to your arguments about reducing participation, that is unproven and unprovable, like so many political assumptions, because we can't rewind the Universe and try again with a different topic. You think it will reduce participation because you don't like it. And you gather people who agree with you into a little bubble, and tell the rest of us that your bubble represents our opinion. It does not.

The Hit Squad and Nil managed to get to the Finals by competing against everyone in the DPL, and by pleasing the most voters across all the swath of aesthetics and opinions. Congratulations. That is an accomplishment. Don't minimize it now by asking to have a challenge catered to you. It is elitism to do so. And winning challenges is a populist achievement, not elitist.
09/10/2018 10:41:23 AM · #18
Originally posted by posthumous:

Tempted as I am to sit back and enjoy the spectacle, there are aspects to this thread that I find disturbing and remind me of the divisiveness of political landscapes these days.

You don't mean to be insulting and inconsiderate. You honestly can't imagine that someone would think this is a good challenge topic, an interesting and inspiring idea. But actually some of us do. And even if we don't score as high as you, our opinion matters just as much.


Your point is fair. But I will be honest and say that because of all the meaningful conversations I've had about this place before taking what I thought was a permanent leave of absence a year ago, because of all the well-meaning excuses and verbalized reason why things are the way they are, and because I've watched time and again as people come and go citing precisely the same issues with the site while receiving precisely the same answers my intention here was to be precisely that - insulting and inconsiderate.

Look, having run multiple internet discussion forums on other topics I know just how difficult it is to herd cats, keep the peace, and keep most of the people happy most of the time, and I am by no means trying to belittle the work done here. It's thankless work and posts like mine do little to inspire you to keep on keeping on.

So yes, today I'm the @$$hole. Maybe because I'm done with ignored suggestions and hearing "yes, maybe so, but we can't change that because..." I've spent the last 3+ months, after first allowing myself to be talked into coming back to try and give the place one final push, working with a team of intensely motivated people who took time out of incredibly important moments in their lives (multiple moves, a sale of a business, a wedding and honeymoon) to shoot great photographs for this place, and who have generated nearly 1100 posts in a team PM seeking guidance and offering advice to teammates in a way that should happen across the board here. Whether you believe that the images taken are great or whether they are trite mass consumables, my team has performed at a level that none of us could or would have without each other. So excuse me if I decided that a challenge like this at a time like this required an Earl Weaver moment where one idiot decides that it's time to kick dirt to make the point, no matter how ridiculous. This was personal, as was my response.

Message edited by author 2018-09-10 10:42:53.
09/10/2018 11:05:15 AM · #19
Originally posted by posthumous:

Tempted as I am to sit back and enjoy the spectacle, there are aspects to this thread that I find disturbing and remind me of the divisiveness of political landscapes these days.

You don't mean to be insulting and inconsiderate. You honestly can't imagine that someone would think this is a good challenge topic, an interesting and inspiring idea. But actually some of us do. And even if we don't score as high as you, our opinion matters just as much.

As to your arguments about reducing participation, that is unproven and unprovable, like so many political assumptions, because we can't rewind the Universe and try again with a different topic. You think it will reduce participation because you don't like it. And you gather people who agree with you into a little bubble, and tell the rest of us that your bubble represents our opinion. It does not.

The Hit Squad and Nil managed to get to the Finals by competing against everyone in the DPL, and by pleasing the most voters across all the swath of aesthetics and opinions. Congratulations. That is an accomplishment. Don't minimize it now by asking to have a challenge catered to you. It is elitism to do so. And winning challenges is a populist achievement, not elitist.


+

Well thought out, Don - and I really thought Jake and others had a valid point about the size of the likely "playing field" and the way that affects the weight of each score as it is awarded. But I find your points equally valid and even more compelling.

I had no intention of shooting for this challenge . . . but shoot and enter I will. And I hope that many many others will step up as well.

09/10/2018 11:29:48 AM · #20
Originally posted by amdprasad:

as some one said below, we have to find vegetables. and those who find "bingo" have a great shot.


sorry, but that is not a valid critique. If this were a sunrise challenge, you would have to find a beautiful sunrise under the best conditions. luck is always a part of photography. "finding" is a part of photography. Photography is the humblest of the arts, and that is its greatness, because it reminds all artists in every medium that they do not create something from nothing. we all assemble and repurpose the Universe to create our art.
09/10/2018 11:41:29 AM · #21
sorry for typing a single line. its just extension of what Jake is saying regarding the numbers on how the low turnout can impact the league's result. i am sure if this is a sunrise challenge there would be more entries to the challenge than a vegetable bestiary, isnt it? the entire meaning of this discussion is a worry about how low the number of entries could be and how it can make this challenge irrelevant if you are not in top 3. numbers are given by Jake. for me photography is exactly what you have described in your words.
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by amdprasad:

as some one said below, we have to find vegetables. and those who find "bingo" have a great shot.


sorry, but that is not a valid critique. If this were a sunrise challenge, you would have to find a beautiful sunrise under the best conditions. luck is always a part of photography. "finding" is a part of photography. Photography is the humblest of the arts, and that is its greatness, because it reminds all artists in every medium that they do not create something from nothing. we all assemble and repurpose the Universe to create our art.
09/10/2018 11:44:11 AM · #22
I've just scanned the thread real quick. I will come back for a thorough read as I'm in the middle of some real world stuff. Isn't this the ultimate final challenge? This will take some thought and imagination. You can't just go out and find something, though you could with eyes wide open.

No need to be so hateful. The world has enough of that right now.
09/10/2018 11:57:51 AM · #23
The discussion is more about how low turn out can impact the overall result. for example, only 24 entries are there in Bread II challenge. and it impacts on the percentile.
Originally posted by RKT:

I've just scanned the thread real quick. I will come back for a thorough read as I'm in the middle of some real world stuff. Isn't this the ultimate final challenge? This will take some thought and imagination. You can't just go out and find something, though you could with eyes wide open.

No need to be so hateful. The world has enough of that right now.
09/10/2018 12:00:29 PM · #24
Originally posted by posthumous:

sorry, but that is not a valid critique.


... but your critique is valid?
09/10/2018 12:15:18 PM · #25
Originally posted by hopper:

Originally posted by posthumous:

sorry, but that is not a valid critique.

... but your critique is valid?

Don pointed out that ALL photography rewards serendipity. That's a statement of fact, not a critique.
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