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07/23/2012 01:01:58 PM · #176 |
This seems to be a pretty in depth analysis of global homicide rates and appears to actually be current as opposed to some of the out dated stats you are all dragging up. Compiled by the UN so I would hope the stats are a bit more reliable.
//www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html Click the link 2011 Global Study on Homicide, it'll open a pdf document.
Message edited by author 2012-07-23 13:02:10. |
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07/23/2012 01:04:42 PM · #177 |
Americans and Europeans are never going to see eye to eye on this issue for the most part. Our cultures are just too different.
I'm going to live by one of my mottos(don't mix your politics and your entertainment) and not even get involved in this discussion.
I really do hope you all keep shooting though, cameras that is. ;)
Message edited by author 2012-07-23 13:06:14. |
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07/23/2012 01:06:34 PM · #178 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
It's not BS. The quote was from THIS article that I meant to link earlier, and the figures were taken from a 2010 study published in the Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection, and Critical Care. Regarding your overall violence claim, the same report noted that "U.S. homicide rates were 6.9 times higher than rates in the other high-income countries, despite similar non-lethal crime and violence rates (as reported in other studies). The firearm homicide rate in the U.S. was 19.5 times higher. The researchers conclude that Ć¢Whatever our basic level of violence, the empirical evidence from ecological, case-control, and other studies indicate that readily accessible firearms - by making killing easy, efficient, and somewhat impersonal - increase the lethality of violenceĆ¢ |
I do mostly agree, but I think even without the guns we would still have higher rates of homicide, it's our culture, not our guns.
And, you also know that was a BS presentation of the facts... We are 40 times more likely to be killed by gunfire, not 40 times more likely to be killed... I think you darn well knew that you were skewing this when you posted that.
Message edited by author 2012-07-23 13:09:11. |
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07/23/2012 01:07:58 PM · #179 |
Originally posted by Cory:
You have still not told me what your argument is, all you're doing is attacking my position without having one of your own, that makes you pretty hard to attack, and me pretty easy.. Although that does seem to sorta be your style. |
I'll refresh your memory from earlier today. You wrote the following:
Originally posted by Cory:
So, wrap your head around this: You are not significantly more likely to be killed by someone in the US than in EU, it's just more likely that the person who is killing you will use a gun instead of some other instrument... |
Yet you presented nothing to substantiate that fact. In fact, your links point to exactly the opposite of what you posited. From your link, only four countries have a worse murder rate compared to the US. So what I'm saying is your comparison skills between two numbers sucks.
edit - Here are some links.
Message edited by author 2012-07-23 13:16:49. |
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07/23/2012 01:13:38 PM · #180 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
There are plenty of comparisons that can be made.
Lets change the scale some, and compare the US with another country in our hemisphere that has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world - commensurate with those of Britain. Mexico... |
Don't confuse "laws" with "enforcement" :) Mexico might have strict gun laws, but the country also has an extremely corrupt law enforcement, and it doesn't take much to pay the right people to turn a blind eye. |
Ok, just for fun, let's play that game.
"laws" vs "enforcement"
Your premise is that laws do not equal enforcement, and therefore a lack of enforcement is the culprit. Ok, let me ask you this:
Do you feel that the US enforces drug laws? If you answer yes, then please tell me why we still are one of the largest consumers of illicit drugs in the world?
Did you ever stop to think that only the folks who behave themselves, and aren't a problem in the first place, are the only ones who follow the laws anyway?
I'll share a bit of first hand knowledge - once you have committed yourself to being a criminal, laws and penalties only become a cost/benefit/risk calculation, they are not somehow magically in place and more-or-less unbreakable like the laws of physics. |
They are not more unbreakable, but you ARE more likely to get caught if the enforcement isn't as corrupt. All I am saying is that Mexico is NOT a good comparison. Unfortunately, there is no Western Hemisphere country that is comparable to the U.S. on this regard, at least not directly. Mexico is a red herring. |
How about we leave out the americas altogether? Lets study Europe alone.
//www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/06/29/weekinreview/29liptak-grfk.html
Ok, now lets look at the US alone: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
You will find that many of the cities with the highest murder and crime rates have bans on transportation and carry of weapons outside of the home (Baltimore, Newark, DC to name a few). We can go into deeper detail if needed.
A decent article showing that there is no easy correlation to be made in any case: //www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/weekinreview/29liptak.html?pagewanted=all |
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07/23/2012 01:16:21 PM · #181 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Cory:
You have still not told me what your argument is, all you're doing is attacking my position without having one of your own, that makes you pretty hard to attack, and me pretty easy.. Although that does seem to sorta be your style. |
I'll refresh your memory from earlier today. You wrote the following:
Originally posted by Cory:
So, wrap your head around this: You are not significantly more likely to be killed by someone in the US than in EU, it's just more likely that the person who is killing you will use a gun instead of some other instrument... |
Yet you presented nothing to substantiate that fact. In fact, your links point to exactly the opposite of what you posited. From your link, only four countries have a worse murder rate compared to the US. So what I'm saying is your comparison skills between two numbers sucks. |
Venser,
Let me make this clear, please take up a position other than simply attacking my positions by ignoring 90% of what is being said and trying to make me look like I'm speaking as a fool. That is taking the argument to a more personal level, and that isn't productive. I have asked you to clarify your argument, and your clarification was to simply attack my position and call me out as being self-contradictory. That wasn't clarifying your argument, or taking a valid position.
You have already poked another member in the eye today and gotten them to blow up on you.... I'd suggest that you start thinking about how you are perceived by others, because, honestly? I've personally received two PM's from other members talking about your behavior. That alone should give you pause. |
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07/23/2012 01:19:58 PM · #182 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
They are not more unbreakable, but you ARE more likely to get caught if the enforcement isn't as corrupt. All I am saying is that Mexico is NOT a good comparison. Unfortunately, there is no Western Hemisphere country that is comparable to the U.S. on this regard, at least not directly. Mexico is a red herring. |
Indeed, there is a bit of a disparity in criminal activity where gun laws are n/a, no? Sadly, the already terrible homicide rate statistics resulting from our lax gun controls are actually much worse when you consider that most of those guns in other Western Hemisphere countries come from the U.S. because it's so easy to obtain guns here and we don't bother to inspect exported cargo. |
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07/23/2012 01:28:46 PM · #183 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Let me make this clear, please take up a position other than simply attacking my positions by ignoring 90% of what is being said and trying to make me look like I'm speaking as a fool. That is taking the argument to a more personal level, and that isn't productive. I have asked you to clarify your argument, and your clarification was to simply attack my position and call me out as being self-contradictory. That wasn't clarifying your argument, or taking a valid position. |
My position is you're making shit up. You wrote to  jagar that you are equally likely to be a victim of homicide in Europe as compared to the US. You are not. None of the numbers you presented show this, and thus I am calling out your position. Is that now clear?
Originally posted by Cory:
You have already poked another member in the eye today and gotten them to blow up on you.... I'd suggest that you start thinking about how you are perceived by others, because, honestly? I've personally received two PM's from other members talking about your behavior. That alone should give you pause. |
Can you be any more opaque? I'd like to know who I poked in the eye?
If people have a problem with my behaviour tell them to report me to the SC. To be frank, looking over all the posts I wrote today, I think the SC would be hard pressed to cite me up for any infraction. I've acted civilly in all discourse today.  Scalvert, I know you're reading this thread, give me a heads up when I'm out of line.
Yes, getting the heads up from a pot-stirrer (your label, not mine) about anonymous PMs will really give me pause.
Message edited by author 2012-07-23 13:39:32. |
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07/23/2012 01:28:59 PM · #184 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I think even without the guns we would still have higher rates of homicide, it's our culture, not our guns.
And, you also know that was a BS presentation of the facts... We are 40 times more likely to be killed by gunfire, not 40 times more likely to be killed... I think you darn well knew that you were skewing this when you posted that. |
Our culture IS guns. While we are 40 times more likely to be killed by gunfire, the fact that we are nowhere near 40 times more likely to be killed overall illustrates that point. We are not 40 times more violent than other countries, but guns make that violence far more lethal. |
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07/23/2012 01:34:47 PM · #185 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
If someone is going to get killed, beaten, robbed or raped, the police aren't going to be there to stop it from happening. They might catch the bad guy after, but only after the damage has been done. |
Not to mention the sort of obvious fact that you can't jail someone for rape or murder unless you've actually done it.
And as far as attempted......after rolling the dice with the perp, then you get to roll the dice with twelve people who couldn't figure out how to get out of jury duty.
Flippant? Yes, but.......think about it.
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07/23/2012 01:42:13 PM · #186 |
Originally posted by Venser:
If people have a problem with my behaviour tell them to report me to the SC. To be frank, looking over all the posts I wrote today, I think the SC would be hard pressed to cite me up for any infraction. I've acted civilly in all discourse today. Scalvert, I know you're reading this thread, give me a heads up when I'm out of line. |
To be honest, I've been running errands this morning and not really following the thread closely, however going back through the posts you appear to be about as civil as I've ever seen in such a forum. Posting refuting evidence is not an attack. |
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07/23/2012 01:46:57 PM · #187 |
Venser, civil? That'll be the day.
Just kidding BTW. |
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07/23/2012 02:02:12 PM · #188 |
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
You will find that many of the cities with the highest murder and crime rates have bans on transportation and carry of weapons outside of the home (Baltimore, Newark, DC to name a few). |
It's no surprise that areas with more violence will have a higher homicide rate. The real comparison would be homicides in areas with similar rates of violent crime, but different numbers of guns. For example the United Kingdom actually has a slightly higher per capita crime rate than the U.S. but only a quarter of the homicide rate. It's easier to run from a knife than a bullet. |
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07/23/2012 02:04:30 PM · #189 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Cory:
Let me make this clear, please take up a position other than simply attacking my positions by ignoring 90% of what is being said and trying to make me look like I'm speaking as a fool. That is taking the argument to a more personal level, and that isn't productive. I have asked you to clarify your argument, and your clarification was to simply attack my position and call me out as being self-contradictory. That wasn't clarifying your argument, or taking a valid position. |
My position is you're making shit up. You wrote to jagar that you are equally likely to be a victim of homicide in Europe as compared to the US. You are not. None of the numbers you presented show this, and thus I am calling out your position. Is that now clear?
Originally posted by Cory:
You have already poked another member in the eye today and gotten them to blow up on you.... I'd suggest that you start thinking about how you are perceived by others, because, honestly? I've personally received two PM's from other members talking about your behavior. That alone should give you pause. |
Can you be any more opaque? I'd like to know who I poked in the eye?
If people have a problem with my behaviour tell them to report me to the SC. To be frank, looking over all the posts I wrote today, I think the SC would be hard pressed to cite me up for any infraction. I've acted civilly in all discourse today. Scalvert, I know you're reading this thread, give me a heads up when I'm out of line.
Yes, getting the heads up from a pot-stirrer (your label, not mine) about anonymous PMs will really give me pause. |
First, yes, I think the fact that people are talking behind your back should worry you just a little, I wonder what your "real life" friends say behind your back at your job and elsewhere? If you behave there as you do here, I'm guessing that it may not be something you'd be very happy to learn about... Don't worry though, they'll never let you know, most people just talk the crap behind your back and never have the decency to let you know about it.
Ok, let me be less opaque. Your rude and inflammatory comment set Fred off in a thread this morning so badly that the entire thread was deleted from DPC and I don't really expect to see him back any time soon.. And yes, it was you, being a jerk saying that you were very pleased to hear he was leaving. With that being said, Fred is a rather easy button to push, but you didn't do that by accident.
And I am not making shit up, I am interpreting the data. Your interpretation may vary, but you are starting to take this discussion to a personal enough level I want to go Fred on your ass too. How DARE you accuse me of making things up - as I have done no such thing nor did I say that you are EQUALLY as likely, I said the disparity was not what was being presented. So, indeed, you seem to be the one making shit up.. You seem to be one of those folks that can't process complex information, and instead deal much better with simple inaccurate facts that clearly support one ideal or the other, while failing to recognize that the world is more complex that your particular brain can deal with.
ETA: Just for the record, I'm all for being direct, blunt, whatever, but keep it to the facts, instead of as you put it "calling me out"... That'll never go very well for you.
Message edited by author 2012-07-23 14:06:11. |
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07/23/2012 02:07:41 PM · #190 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Ok, let me be less opaque. Your rude and inflammatory comment set Fred off in a thread this morning so badly that the entire thread was deleted from DPC and I don't really expect to see him back any time soon.. And yes, it was you, being a jerk saying that you were very pleased to hear he was leaving. With that being said, Fred is a rather easy button to push, but you didn't do that by accident. |
Dude, that was someone else. But hey, don't let facts get in your way. |
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07/23/2012 02:07:46 PM · #191 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Spork99:
If someone is going to get killed, beaten, robbed or raped, the police aren't going to be there to stop it from happening. They might catch the bad guy after, but only after the damage has been done. |
Not to mention the sort of obvious fact that you can't jail someone for rape or murder unless you've actually done it.
And as far as attempted......after rolling the dice with the perp, then you get to roll the dice with twelve people who couldn't figure out how to get out of jury duty.
Flippant? Yes, but.......think about it. |
Not necessarily. I don't know how it is in other states, but here, if the shooting is found to be "justified" as in acting in self defense or the defense of another, you are immune from prosecution AND civil litigation resulting from your use of lethal force. You can be cynical and believe that most prosecutors will go after anyone who shoots someone else, self defense or not, but that's not the way it really happens.
In any case, I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.
Message edited by author 2012-07-23 14:09:19. |
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07/23/2012 02:08:04 PM · #192 |
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07/23/2012 02:09:48 PM · #193 |
Dude, that was not Venser, it was landonkane
LOL |
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07/23/2012 02:10:12 PM · #194 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Ok, let me be less opaque. Your rude and inflammatory comment set Fred off in a thread this morning so badly that the entire thread was deleted from DPC and I don't really expect to see him back any time soon.. And yes, it was you, being a jerk saying that you were very pleased to hear he was leaving. With that being said, Fred is a rather easy button to push, but you didn't do that by accident.
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Err, that wasn't  Venser it was another user.
Message edited by author 2012-07-23 14:10:33. |
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07/23/2012 02:12:17 PM · #195 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Cory:
Ok, let me be less opaque. Your rude and inflammatory comment set Fred off in a thread this morning so badly that the entire thread was deleted from DPC and I don't really expect to see him back any time soon.. And yes, it was you, being a jerk saying that you were very pleased to hear he was leaving. With that being said, Fred is a rather easy button to push, but you didn't do that by accident. |
Dude, that was someone else. But hey, don't let facts get in your way. |
Ah, well, if that is the case, please allow me to apologize for my mistake. I'm afraid I wasn't able to read that thread after to check my facts, which was why I discovered it had gone.
I do love how you, again, picked one isolated mistake and based your entire argument on it.
Let me give you a hint about how this works, we're not talking about me, or, as much as you would like it to be so, you. We are talking about bigger issues, and this crap doesn't help the discourse along.
In the end, let me illustrate how I see you in general:
Even your comments here support my perception of you. Little wonder that I expect such things from you. |
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07/23/2012 02:13:29 PM · #196 |
Originally posted by JulietNN:
Dude, that was not Venser, it was landonkane
LOL |
Heh... Noted, clearly I botched that argument pretty solidly! :)
Example not withstanding, my perception of the fellow isn't radically changed. |
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07/23/2012 02:15:25 PM · #197 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by JulietNN:
Dude, that was not Venser, it was landonkane
LOL |
Heh... Noted, clearly I botched that argument pretty solidly! :)
Example not withstanding, my perception of the fellow isn't radically changed. |
You do realize that you're engaging in entirely the same behavior that you are ranting against, right? That isn't lost on you? |
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07/23/2012 02:17:44 PM · #198 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by JulietNN:
Dude, that was not Venser, it was landonkane
LOL |
Heh... Noted, clearly I botched that argument pretty solidly! :)
Example not withstanding, my perception of the fellow isn't radically changed. |
You do realize that you're engaging in entirely the same behavior that you are ranting against, right? That isn't lost on you? |
Of course it's not... However, when my error was pointed out, you'll notice my only real defense was to admit my mistake. The rest of what I said is no less valid, despite my error.
My major issue is him sniping at one small error here or there, while turning a blind eye to the argument at large, it's annoying and a serious pet-peeve of mine as it tends to derail arguments into BS like this.
Message edited by author 2012-07-23 14:20:59. |
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07/23/2012 02:21:47 PM · #199 |
| How did we get onto personal attacks? Lets let objectivity remain prevalent in this thread. Cory, this page isn't helping your arguments. It looks like you've gotten frustrated and have resorted to name calling. |
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07/23/2012 02:23:32 PM · #200 |
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
How did we get onto personal attacks? Lets let objectivity remain prevalent in this thread. Cory, this page isn't helping your arguments. It looks like you've gotten frustrated and have resorted to name calling. |
Probably because that's exactly what happened..
I have a bad tendency to allow myself to be side-tracked by foolish red-herrings.
And just for the record, I think this is pretty much the post where it went south.
ETA: Venser, you ready to just call this one as water under the bridge for now, and get back on track? I'm sure you have some excellent points to be made, and I would like to hear them.
Message edited by author 2012-07-23 14:28:20. |
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