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07/21/2012 01:03:15 PM · #101 |
deleted
Message edited by author 2012-07-21 15:47:31. |
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07/21/2012 01:05:40 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Actually i was using a word I learned in a book the day before. It helps implant the vocabulary in your mind. It wasn't an insult, but it was chiding you (different things). |
For a change, I agree with your chiding :)
Kind of brings the whole 'personal responsibility' thing to light. "Hey people, I'm going to be a bit controversial." "Woah, that's controversial, and we don't like it!" "What? I didn't do anything!" |
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07/21/2012 01:11:15 PM · #103 |
Maybe I should have started this post of in the Rant section ......
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07/21/2012 01:15:16 PM · #104 |
Well.. here goes, just my two sense worth and yes I am bracing for the back lash (as usual) First of all I would like to say how sorry I am that this happened, my heart and prayers goes out to all the victims and their families. Gun control...a touchy subject for all, do you really think that if all the law abiding citizens had their right to own and bear arms taken away that the bad guys would not purchase them illegally? Then where does that put us, unarmed and defenseless against armed criminals. However I do think some stricter gun legislation is in order, how..I have no clue, this shooter (the colorado shooter) had no history of mental illness, so how would we screen who should be allowed to purchase and who should not, they can get them regardless of the law, these people have no intention of following the law. Its a no win situation, assault weapons IMHO have no use in society.
Message edited by author 2012-07-21 14:06:54. |
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07/21/2012 01:17:53 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Venser:
Personally, I think anyone blaming the availability of firearms is ignoring the many socio-economic problems the US faces. It's also country which glorifies violence and repudiates sex. This is entirely backwards. |
ding ding. |
Let us assume that guns were NOT available.... do you think he could possibly club 50 or so people into submission... I think NOT.
Ray |
So he waits until the movie is over and drives his car through the exiting crowd... |
Great plan... now, can you provide me with one single example where an individual took a vehicle and managed to kill 12 people and injure some 50 others.
The most blatant example I can recall was the vehicle running over people in Cairo and in that instance I do not believe that the number of persons killed was equal to or greater than what transpired in this instance.
Regardless of the methods used, it still is a senseless act that will impact specifically on several poor families, and society as a wholes.
Ray |
Well, to be fair, he did have his apartment rigged to blow, so a car-bomb wouldn't be unthinkable would it?
Given that a car bomb does count as a car, here's a single example (and I'm sure there are better worse ones) Car Bomb Kills 115
In the end, this wasn't a dumb guy, I don't think he was going for the highest possible number of kills, he would very likely have been able to do much more, given his "talents" and intelligence. No, for some reason, this particular individual desired a much more personal and interactive sort of killing, I certainly can't say why, but I'd be willing to venture a guess that he was somehow angry at people or the world, and he just wanted to lash out at the faceless them... My only real question is whether he meant to get caught or not, I wonder if he thought he would get away before the police arrived? |
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07/21/2012 01:35:37 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Actually i was using a word I learned in a book the day before. It helps implant the vocabulary in your mind. It wasn't an insult, but it was chiding you (different things). |
For a change, I agree with your chiding :)
Kind of brings the whole 'personal responsibility' thing to light. "Hey people, I'm going to be a bit controversial." "Woah, that's controversial, and we don't like it!" "What? I didn't do anything!" |
Really? That's rich. Chiding from the creator of the "?s about atheism but were afraid to ask" thread. But I need to take personal responsibility for posting an opinion? You can both go f**k off. How's that for personal responsibility. |
Not surprising, actually.
Let me just clarify: It's a classic personality type. The need for attention (even negative) is followed by confusion when the negative seeking gets called out, and then finally indignation at being 'ganged up on'.
Not only did you START your post by saying it might be controversial, but you followed it up by acting personally attacked when someone (me) mentioned what you posted on a general scale (thus moving it back to YOU again), and acting personally insulted once more on another later thread that wasn't specifically directed at you, and then when someone (the Doc) called you out finally, instead of just saying "Ok, fine, sorry." or even just "Well, I thought it was very coincidental" and leaving it at that, you needed to 'explain' yourself by saying "well, the forums are boring." Yah, that gives you instant credibility there. Then, finally, you just explode on the people calling you out using anger as a power tool. It's classic behavior.
As soon as you posted that "The forums are boring" and that "people are afraid to post their opinions", you basically proved to DrAchoo (and everyone else) that you posted your first post ONLY to stir the pot. Not just as an opinion. Which is fine, I mean, we've come to expect it on this forum, and for the most part people will read and forget, or might post something in response. The problem becomes when you begin to act personally slighted when people don't agree with you. THAT is where the wheels fell off. If you're going to post something with the intent of being purposely hornet's nest poking, you need to make sure you're wearing thick clothing so that you minimize the stinging. You seemed to poke the nest wearing a bikini. Perhaps on purpose. Maybe stinging feels good.
I don't know.
Message edited by author 2012-07-21 13:51:09. |
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07/21/2012 01:56:59 PM · #107 |
| Please, enough with the personal back and forth. This is neither informative nor beneficial to anyone. If you have had your feelings hurt, let it go. |
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07/21/2012 03:29:45 PM · #108 |
| *headdesk* *headdesk* *headdesk* There, I feel much better now. |
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07/21/2012 03:40:01 PM · #109 |
This is one of the main reasons that I've posted only about 10 times in the last 6 months
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Actually i was using a word I learned in a book the day before. It helps implant the vocabulary in your mind. It wasn't an insult, but it was chiding you (different things). |
For a change, I agree with your chiding :)
Kind of brings the whole 'personal responsibility' thing to light. "Hey people, I'm going to be a bit controversial." "Woah, that's controversial, and we don't like it!" "What? I didn't do anything!" |
Really? That's rich. Chiding from the creator of the "?s about atheism but were afraid to ask" thread. But I need to take personal responsibility for posting an opinion? You can both go f**k off. How's that for personal responsibility. |
I just poked my head into DPChallenge after being mostly 'out' for almost a year and this is what I find.
No thanks! Enjoy it Kelli. |
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07/21/2012 03:49:24 PM · #110 |
| Don't let me stop you, I won't be posting in any more threads here. |
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07/21/2012 03:52:59 PM · #111 |
nevermind
Message edited by author 2012-07-21 15:53:57. |
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07/21/2012 05:13:49 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by sjhuls:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Just to stir up a little controversy... How much do you want to bet this guy is an avid Rush Limbaugh fan, and the rant that Rush did about the movie influenced this nutjob's decision to go shoot up the liberal conspirators? |
The fact people actually listen to Rush is what's wrong with America. As long as people like himself, Coulter, Beck, O'Reilly, and others have an audience it's hard for me to root for your country. |
Do you two even have a clue how offensive this is to many people on this site??? Seriously, how about I start calling you names and see how you react. Grow up people. This is a tragedy to be blamed on no one but the person who did it. And the fact that you turned this into that kind of thread in the matter of just a few posts goes to show how much respect you all have for the victims. |
Sure I do, and I stand behind what I said. The people I mentioned are partisan political hacks who don't care about proper discourse or facts. I linked to one study, and you can find more, but people who watch Fox news are on average less informed than people who watch no news. That's a pretty astounding statement if you ask me. It's sad when a comedy show on the comedy network has more informed viewers than pretty much the viewer of any American news syndicate, NPR notwithstanding. Coulter and Rush are just mouth pieces who needs to score easy ratings by sleeping with cheap tricks.
What does talking about political discourse have anything to do with respect for the families? It's people who don't want to talk about the systemic problems prevalent in society which are the catalyst to incidents like these. |
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07/21/2012 05:14:50 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
It's a tragedy, but given the scale of human to human contact on earth, tragedies like this are only inevitable. What I really hate are the over-reactions. The knee-jerk responses.
"If only someone in the audience had a gun".
"This is retribution from God for idolizing false heroes".
"Rush Limbaugh ranted against the movie, it's his fault".
"Violent Entertainment is the root of it all!"
"Video games teach children to become killers!"
"His mom knew he was dangerous and did nothing/tried to and the authorities did nothing!"
It's all just pure clap-trap. Fact is, someone disturbed decided to do something bad and people got killed. It has no reason, it has no fault (outside the killer's own). We are living on a cramped planet with over 9 billion people on it. It is, quite frankly, shocking that we don't have this kind of thing happen far more often.
Incidents like this are going to happen. We can, and should, work towards preventing them as much as possible, but preventing them totally is simply unrealistic.
It's painful, and regretful and tragic, but it is also just another part of living amongst our species. Anger and blame and over-reaction are just as dangerous as the gunman himself. |
Knee jerk? Really? I'd just like to point out the fact that no where did I say it was Rush Limbaugh's fault. I think hate filled rhetoric has been proven to push people over the edge...
Often we hear the excuse that the problem is simply the fact that these people are mentally ill crazies who would be doing something crazy anyway.
This is, of course, a complete cop-out. It ignores, in fact, the cold reality that violence, even by the mentally ill, does not occur in a vacuum. When people become the subject of a relentless campaign of demonization -- especially by the use of grotesque smears that make them out to be monsters and provably false "facts" that have the concrete effect of unhinging people from reality -- it will only be a matter of time before the lethal violence breaks out. link |
Nowhere did I single out anyone on here for these reactions. Fact is, these are reactions that are all over the internet right now, and yes, they ARE knee-jerk. And useless.
I also stated that we can and should keep trying to prevent things like this from happening. This includes (but is not limited to) trying our best to quell demonization of people, events, etc. However, we will NEVER be able to stop tragedies from occuring. EVER. So when they DO happen, it is in NOBODY'S interest to start throwing around blame and anger at 'possible' faults or reasons. Especially random people on the internet that have no more to do with the incident or the investigation(s) surrounding it than a field full of cattle in South America. |
People who don't have anything to do with the crime, the criminal, the victim or the investigation are still people affected by tragic events such as this. Their contemplation of the events, the crime, the cause, the blame, etc is merely nothing but contemplation. Whether their intent is to lay blame or not, they are merely trying to make sense out of a senseless act. There is nothing wrong with that.
It is human nature to look for the reason why... even if there is no reason at all. It is human nature to look for someone to blame. Kelli stated her opinion and you are certainly within your right to state yours. Lashing out at each other is merely a side effect of the original crime. I predict some more side effects might be that gun sales will increase as some people will feel the need to protect themselves. Movie ticket sales may go down (especially for the dark night). OR on the other end of the spectrum there may be more movie sales because people will refuse to allow one tragic criminal act to turn them into victims too by making them recluse to their homes.
Whatever happens there are going to be ripples in this Nation because many people are being emotionally affected. How it affects them will manifest itself in different ways. I'm disappointed in some of the attacking comments I've seen in this thread. I thought DPC was a better community than that. Kelli is my friend and whether or not I agree with her opinion... I respect it. As I respect yours. I just wish opinions could have been made or disagreed about without the personal attacks. |
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07/21/2012 05:15:13 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Given that a car bomb does count as a car, here's a single example (and I'm sure there are better worse ones) Car Bomb Kills 115 |
I would wager good money that you are cognizant enough to know that you are comparing apples and horse turds here right?
The days when one could readily acquire materials of this nature in the USA are for the most part no longer existing.
You still have not given me an example of an instance where a car cause similar carnage... remember, it was not me who brought up that scenario ....you did...so I am waiting.
Ray |
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07/21/2012 05:53:36 PM · #115 |
I would like to thank you ALL for sharing your views on this. Certainly, the U.S. is a very polarized nation, but silently holding onto our own ideas and misperceptions (regardless of where we acquired them) is no way to overcome it. I wish we could each listen with open ears and minds to hear how others perceive things, gently seek to offer counterpoints and rebuttals where appropriate, and strive to understand that people--ourselves included-- are not perfect. In any conversation, we must work together to clarify facts and achieve consensus. Personal attacks won't get us there, but an honest and open sharing of ideas might. We can complain about biased news outlets, but somewhere underneath the rhetoric there is a correct path to a better tomorrow. If we work together, surely we can find it.
My heart goes out to the victims of this latest tragedy.
Jia
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07/21/2012 06:00:46 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Cory:
Given that a car bomb does count as a car, here's a single example (and I'm sure there are better worse ones) Car Bomb Kills 115 |
I would wager good money that you are cognizant enough to know that you are comparing apples and horse turds here right?
The days when one could readily acquire materials of this nature in the USA are for the most part no longer existing.
You still have not given me an example of an instance where a car cause similar carnage... remember, it was not me who brought up that scenario ....you did...so I am waiting.
Ray |
First, I did not bring it up. Spork did.
Secondly, you have heard that he has his apartment rigged with explosives of some sort right? While they do sound like low-order stuff (incendiary and black-powder type stuff) one expert quoted in an article said that the rigging and setup was unlike anything he'd seen, and showed a high degree of skill.
Third, your assumption that getting the precursors to explosive compounds is nearly impossible is highly flawed. In truth, given enough time and desire, one can easily create the hardest to get components (nitrates) from natural materials. And that is only one of a hundred options, clearly this fellow may well have been willing to steal the needed chemicals.
I apologize Ray, but your none of your assumptions there were very accurate. |
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07/21/2012 06:08:34 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
You still have not given me an example of an instance where a car cause similar carnage... remember, it was not me who brought up that scenario ....you did...so I am waiting.
Ray |
Furthermore, most of the car-into crowd scenarios fail to take into account that speed is very important, as energy is 0.5*MASS*(speed^2).. And most of the news-reported incidents the cars were doing 30-50mph... Now if the car is doing 150mph, things change, and radically so.
"At 6.26 pm, June 11th 1955, the world of playboy racers and their exotic cars exploded in a devastating fireball. On the home straight early in the Le Mans 24-Hour race, future British world champion Mike Hawthorn made a rash mistake. Pierre Levegh's Mercedes 300 SLR smashed into the crowd, killing 83 people and injuring 120 more. It remains the worst disaster in motor sports history."
....
Interesting article, regarding some similarities between this and the comic book, and the movie, and .... *shrug* the guy has clearly gone off his rocker, sure, he may have gotten small inspiration from this sort of stuff, but really, he did this for reasons that are comprehensible to no-one but himself, as madness doesn't translate well into any known language.
Message edited by author 2012-07-21 18:18:53. |
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07/21/2012 06:17:11 PM · #118 |
| Truly a sad event, senseless beyond any of our possible thoughts. It is something that none of us but the shooter can possibly understand and is best left to the experts to try get into his thoughts to maybe figure out the why and hopefully how to prevent future events. I think it is far to early to try placing blame on any one thing or group and trying to use this for to prove our political agendas is best left for another time, this is truly a time to offer up prayers and comfort rather, please save the rants for later and let the families and friends have this time to morn. |
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07/21/2012 09:08:34 PM · #119 |
| There is a cause and a reason for all these shootings, one must search deeply for the answer, sadly they won't stop, not in the short term, but one day they will forever! |
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07/21/2012 09:10:57 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by Neat:
There is a cause and a reason for all these shootings, one must search deeply for the answer, sadly they won't stop, not in the short term, but one day they will forever! |
Of course, as a geologist it's very clear to me that this can't happen forever. ;) |
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07/21/2012 09:43:31 PM · #121 |
On a different note...I just went to see "a dark knight" this afternoon. That is a damn good movie.
edited to correct spelling
Message edited by author 2012-07-21 21:44:10.
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07/22/2012 11:51:45 AM · #122 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Neat:
There is a cause and a reason for all these shootings, one must search deeply for the answer, sadly they won't stop, not in the short term, but one day they will forever! |
Of course, as a geologist it's very clear to me that this can't happen forever. ;) |
That depends on your belief system. Personally, as a Christian, I believe that Azazael and his cohorts will be cast into the flaming depths and the New Jerusalem will descend and we will live in harmony and peace when the Messiah returns.
And before there are a ton of rebuttals about it, I do realize that not everyone has the same view as I do and I respect your belief system. I am merely stating mine and not looking for an argument or discussion about religion. My prayers go out to the families of the victims. |
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07/22/2012 12:02:01 PM · #123 |
| I heard it was the one year anniversary for this mass murderer. Anders Behring Breivik |
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07/22/2012 01:55:21 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by Sheryll:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Neat:
There is a cause and a reason for all these shootings, one must search deeply for the answer, sadly they won't stop, not in the short term, but one day they will forever! |
Of course, as a geologist it's very clear to me that this can't happen forever. ;) |
That depends on your belief system. Personally, as a Christian, I believe that Azazael and his cohorts will be cast into the flaming depths and the New Jerusalem will descend and we will live in harmony and peace when the Messiah returns.
And before there are a ton of rebuttals about it, I do realize that not everyone has the same view as I do and I respect your belief system. I am merely stating mine and not looking for an argument or discussion about religion. My prayers go out to the families of the victims. |
Geology is not a belief system. :)
Message edited by author 2012-07-22 14:00:53. |
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07/22/2012 04:47:05 PM · #125 |
I read these posts through my tears... I live in Colorado and I was in meeting of school officials from all over the state, including folks from Columbine when that tragedy happened. They were receiving phone calls and letting us know as much as they knew of what was going on through their shock and grief. With three teenagers at home, I can tell you I got home as quickly as I could and hugged them as tightly as I could, so relieved that it wasn't their school, and feeling so guilty about feeling so relieved when so many other families were not as lucky as me that day (including a lady at my table at that conference whose child was critically injured in that shooting). Never again..... we thought. But it did happen again - a small mountain school a couple of years later - students raped and killed by a gunman. My son's best friend married a beautiful young girl who lived in that area and went to that school.
Just this year we have had horrible wildfires which took one of our DPC member's home, and the homes of hundreds of others, and the lives of several people.... And now this... A young man from our community lies critically injured - shot in the face - with an uncertain prognosis. He and his pregnant wife moved to Aurora recently when he accepted a better job. Their son was born yesterday. Will he ever know his father? We don't know. The youngest victim of this insane action (so far) was 6.... Six years old! How many of you have young daughters? Her mother is in critical condition with a bullet wound in her spine. She's paralyzed. I don't know why she and her child were at that movie. I don't think it's my place to judge. What I do know is that her life will never be the same again and her precious little girl is gone.... slaughtered.....as were other young people.... a young man who had just graduated from high school, a young woman who had just received her Masters Degree, two service man, a young man who was seeing the movie for his birthday...
Maybe you don't know them, but they were living breathing human beings with potentially bright futures when they went into that theatre, and their lives were cut short by another human being. I don't yet know how to help. I just know that most of here feel the anguish and sorrow of these communities. Yes, there is anger, but we don't accomplish anything when we turn that anger on each other. We here have come together before to help those of our own who have experienced tragedies. I would hope that we could find some common ground now. Life is way too short and unpredictable to turn on each other like this.
Message edited by author 2012-07-22 16:48:53. |
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