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07/23/2012 10:38:38 AM · #151 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Jager, you know I LOVE your work, and respect you, but what planet do you live on buddy?
Drugs are illegal, but the drug problems haven't evaporated. What makes you think guns should be any different? |
I live in planet Europe, you know the place where we walk about never thinking about guns, we don't have to because we stand a much better chance of never seeing one up close.
Cory, it's impossible to convince somebody living in a far safer place than you that your way is best. |
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07/23/2012 10:50:55 AM · #152 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
What has changed since then? |
The red coats are long gone. Pretty sure the threat of invasion from them is over, which was the reason the second amendment was included. |
The red coats only represented a government. And no, they are not DIRECTLY why the second amendment was instituted.
The true basis for this amendment goes back to the Declaration of Independence:
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,...
The people should not fear the government. The government should fear the people - they derive their power only by the consent of the governed. |
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07/23/2012 10:53:00 AM · #153 |
Yes, an idiot holding a gun is not a safe thing. Unfortunately, we can't outlaw idiocy.
This thread has opened my eyes. For years I've been walking around with bare arms feeling free and at one with all others with two bare arms. I feel embarrassed. |
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07/23/2012 10:55:14 AM · #154 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by Cory:
Jager, you know I LOVE your work, and respect you, but what planet do you live on buddy?
Drugs are illegal, but the drug problems haven't evaporated. What makes you think guns should be any different? |
I live in planet Europe, you know the place where we walk about never thinking about guns, we don't have to because we stand a much better chance of never seeing one up close.
Cory, it's impossible to convince somebody living in a far safer place than you that your way is best. |
Huh... When did you guys remove Norway from Europe?
Besides,
I'd just like to point out a page where you can find some very interesting statistics.
Did you know that France has a higher death rate from violence, and that the percentage of gun related deaths isn't nearly as low as you pretend?
The numbers here are as follows
Total Violent Deaths per 100,000 / Total homicide per 100,000 / Firearm homicide / Suicide / Firearm suicide / % households with guns.
Key:::::::::::Deaths/murder/gunusd/suicide/gunusd/gunowner %
France::::::::22.67 / 1.12 / 0.44 / 20.79 / 5.14 / 22.6
United States:18.57 / 5.70 / 3.72 / 12.06 / 7.35 / 39.0
Japan:::::::::17.34 / 0.62 / 0.02 / 15.64 / 1.17 / 8.9
I could go on, but here's what I see... You're MORE likely to die a violent death than I am, it's just more likely that you'll be beaten to death slowly and painfully. In fact, you're almost twice as likely to commit suicide, and almost equally likely to use a gun to do so, despite the fact that there are only half as many guns there. Japan's numbers are even more intriguing - slightly less likely to die a violent death overall, but more likely to commit suicide than me, less likely than you, and notice that while they have 25% of the guns we do, they have a SUPER low rate of gun related homicide..
My point? Culture matters FAR more than what weapons are available. And again, the idiots are what you need to worry about, not the guns.
Message edited by author 2012-07-23 10:59:38. |
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07/23/2012 11:03:55 AM · #155 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by Cory:
Jager, you know I LOVE your work, and respect you, but what planet do you live on buddy?
Drugs are illegal, but the drug problems haven't evaporated. What makes you think guns should be any different? |
I live in planet Europe, you know the place where we walk about never thinking about guns, we don't have to because we stand a much better chance of never seeing one up close.
Cory, it's impossible to convince somebody living in a far safer place than you that your way is best. |
Huh... When did you guys remove Norway from Europe?
Besides,
I'd just like to point out a page where you can find some very interesting statistics.
Did you know that France has a higher death rate from violence, and that the percentage of gun related deaths isn't nearly as low as you pretend?
The numbers here are as follows
Total Violent Deaths per 100,000 / Total homicide per 100,000 / Firearm homicide / Suicide / Firearm suicide / % households with guns.
Key:::::::::::Deaths/murder/gunusd/suicide/gunusd/gunowner %
France::::::::22.67 / 1.12 / 0.44 / 20.79 / 5.14 / 22.6
United States:18.57 / 5.70 / 3.72 / 12.06 / 7.35 / 39.0
Japan:::::::::17.34 / 0.62 / 0.02 / 15.64 / 1.17 / 8.9
I could go on, but here's what I see... You're MORE likely to die a violent death than I am, it's just more likely that you'll be beaten to death slowly and painfully. In fact, you're almost twice as likely to commit suicide, and almost equally likely to use a gun to do so, despite the fact that there are only half as many guns there. Japan's numbers are even more intriguing - slightly less likely to die a violent death overall, but more likely to commit suicide than me, less likely than you, and notice that while they have 25% of the guns we do, they have a SUPER low rate of gun related homicide..
My point? Culture matters FAR more than what weapons are available. And again, the idiots are what you need to worry about, not the guns. |
That page was Last updated: 5/17/2003. I think things MIGHT look a little different today? |
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07/23/2012 11:05:39 AM · #156 |
Originally posted by Cory:
And again, the idiots are what you need to worry about, not the guns. |
Replace "idiots" with "criminals".
That gives me a great idea, lets enact laws that are focused on reforming the criminals... because they always follow the law. |
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07/23/2012 11:06:14 AM · #157 |
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
That page was Last updated: 5/17/2003. I think things MIGHT look a little different today? |
What makes you think that? |
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07/23/2012 11:23:33 AM · #158 |
| Cory, you know as well as I do that ths debate is going nowhere fast, we can find anything on the web, it took me seconds to find this and this both of which look far more realistic than your 15 minute search ;-) The fact of the matter is that over 700 million Europeans live their lives not debating whether or not they would be safer if they had a pistol, it simply doesn't occur to them. |
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07/23/2012 11:28:19 AM · #159 |
Originally posted by Cory:
The guy is an idiot, identify your target before firing, simply rule that every gun owner should follow like religiously. |
Even a very bright person might pass on checking ID if he suddenly sees a strange man in his motel room at night.
Originally posted by Cory:
You see, it's not the guns, it's the idiots, that's our problem. |
"The average American is 40 times more likely to be killed by gunfire than the average Englishman or Canadian. According to the NRA, this has nothing to do with the fact that guns proliferate in America and are scarce in England and Canada. We just have to face the facts: Americans, unlike Englishmen and Canadians, are murderous by nature. The ready availability of assault weapons has nothing to do with it." Your contention, then, is that there are 40 times more idiots in America. No argument from me. |
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07/23/2012 11:32:15 AM · #160 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Cory, you know as well as I do that ths debate is going nowhere fast, we can find anything on the web, it took me seconds to find this and this both of which look far more realistic than your 15 minute search ;-) The fact of the matter is that over 700 million Europeans live their lives not debating whether or not they would be safer if they had a pistol, it simply doesn't occur to them. |
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate (your second link)
Agrees VERY well with my link. The only difference is that they excluded some of that data points, which does make it easier to misinterpret the data.
And yes, I agree, flashing red buttons and an interactive color-coded map definitely make me feel a site is more legitimate than a text-only table.
Strange, that you walk around thinking guns aren't an issue in your lives, despite the fact that people in your country both own them, and use them to kill other people.
Head in the sand much?
I'm not here to argue whether or not gun-control should be, should not be, or is effective... I'm simply pointing out that your initial premise is horribly flawed, and that you probably know much less than you act like you do when it comes to this subject. (as do MANY Europeans... It's kinda like the European version of "Stupid American" whereas ours is basic failure to recognize other cultures exist, yours is the failure to recognize that you aren't actually any safer than we are, but that the security theater puts on a better show over there..) |
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07/23/2012 11:39:02 AM · #161 |
Originally posted by Cory:
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate (your second link)
Agrees VERY well with my link. |
Um... according to that link the firearm related death rate is 50% higher in the U.S. than the worst European country, which would seem to support Jagar's point rather than yours. |
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07/23/2012 11:41:45 AM · #162 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Cory:
The guy is an idiot, identify your target before firing, simply rule that every gun owner should follow like religiously. |
Even a very bright person might pass on checking ID if he suddenly sees a strange man in his motel room at night.
True, but a sure-fire light on his gun would have allowed him to ID the target before firing. As it is, he fired at an unknown target and paid the price. Hell, even without the light, why didn't he draw down on them and demand that they "freeze" and announce themselves before firing? No matter how you slice this, it was a piss-poor decision that the guy will regret forever.
Originally posted by Cory:
You see, it's not the guns, it's the idiots, that's our problem. |
"The average American is 40 times more likely to be killed by gunfire than the average Englishman or Canadian. According to the NRA, this has nothing to do with the fact that guns proliferate in America and are scarce in England and Canada. We just have to face the facts: Americans, unlike Englishmen and Canadians, are murderous by nature. The ready availability of assault weapons has nothing to do with it." Your contention, then, is that there are 40 times more idiots in America. No argument from me. |
First, that is BS, 40 times more likely huh? Where did you get that tripe? //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate Jager's link even shows that at the most this is a 10x disparity, not 40x..
And, honestly, the overall odds of being murdered don't change nearly as much, so tell me, would you prefer a relatively fast death from a gunshot wound, or a slower and more violent death through having your brains beaten out with a stick? Cause from what I can see, that's really more the choice here.
You do CLEARLY see your fallacy right? You just basically said that the only murders committed with guns count, since you linked being "murderous by nature" to "being killed with a gun"... So, by your very standard, if a Canadian chops up an Asian university student and then sends bits of him all around the country, that's not murderous by nature, it's just a bit of friendly sex-play gone wrong.... Jesus man, wake up, you aren't safe, you never will be, with guns, without guns, etc... The only way you'll ever be safe is when you're either dead, or everyone else is. Until then, you've just got to do your best to mitigate risk and prepare as you feel is best, but the number really do show that you're in danger of being killed, no matter how many, or how few guns exist...
Oh, and remember that little thing in Rwanda a few years ago? Turns out that ammo was too expensive, so they simply hacked people to death with machetes... Clearly though, that's not at all murderous, because they were decent enough human beings to not use those evil guns.
sigh. |
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07/23/2012 11:42:09 AM · #163 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Spork99:
I will say this: I have used a firearm to defend myself. |
So did this guy. Police response times and available weaponry were a wee bit different in the colonial era. The idea of everyone having a gun for deterrence and self defense has been tried before... in the Old West. Not exactly a model of peace and security. |
You talk about police response times...what a joke. As the saying goes, "When seconds count, the police are minutes away." When I called 911 during my incident, the police took over 45 minutes to respond. The bad guys? They were long gone. I was living in a major city with a "world class" police force too. I can't imagine how long it would take in an outlying area.
I've had police officers tell me their job is mostly picking up the pieces AFTER a crime happens. They come in after the fact to reassure the victims and file a report long after the conflict is over. If someone is going to get killed, beaten, robbed or raped, the police aren't going to be there to stop it from happening. They might catch the bad guy after, but only after the damage has been done. If you're willing to wait for the police while your loved one is beaten, raped or killed, that's your choice, just go into it knowing the police will be there after the fact. Do you think the police will charge in, guns drawn and kill the bad guys like they do in the movies? Not gonna happen. They'll set up a perimeter, evacuate the neighborhood, call in SWAT and try to negotiate while your worst nightmare drags on.
Message edited by author 2012-07-23 12:18:28. |
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07/23/2012 11:48:20 AM · #164 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Cory:
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate (your second link)
Agrees VERY well with my link. |
Um... according to that link the firearm related death rate is 50% higher in the U.S. than the worst European country, which would seem to support Jagar's point rather than yours. |
Yes, that's true, but my link showed the rest of the data...
We OWN almost exactly twice the number of guns.... So of course this makes sense, my argument isn't that a country filled with guns won't have more gun deaths.
My argument is that no matter what the tool the murders choose, there won't be a significant reduction in risk of homicide... People usually don't kill people because they own a gun, they kill people because they want to kill them, the fact that they use a gun is simply because it seemed to them to be the best tool available at the moment, which is a point I'll never argue, guns do happen to be very good tools for killing things, as that's primarily what they are designed to do.
So, wrap your head around this: You are not significantly more likely to be killed by someone in the US than in EU, it's just more likely that the person who is killing you will use a gun instead of some other instrument... |
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07/23/2012 12:11:41 PM · #165 |
Originally posted by Cory:
So, wrap your head around this: You are not significantly more likely to be killed by someone in the US than in EU, it's just more likely that the person who is killing you will use a gun instead of some other instrument... |
Say what?
The only European countries which have a higher homicide rate (any means) per capita are the following: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Ukraine, and Belarus. So I'm trying to understand what you're saying because the numbers don't support you. Europe has 47 countries and only six are worse than the US on a per capita comparison.
Likeliness of being murdered in the US compared to some of the European countries
14.75 x Luxembourg
5.9 x Germany
4.91 x Spain
3.69 x France
2.46 x Northern Ireland
1.64 x Montenegro (the closest on this side)
Had to know where Canada stood for my own knowledge.
3.93 x Canada
Got my numbers from the CIA fact book.
edit - missed Ukraine the first run through.
Message edited by author 2012-07-23 12:14:57. |
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07/23/2012 12:25:28 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Cory:
So, wrap your head around this: You are not significantly more likely to be killed by someone in the US than in EU, it's just more likely that the person who is killing you will use a gun instead of some other instrument... |
Say what?
The only European countries which have a higher homicide rate (any means) per capita are the following: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, and Belarus. So I'm trying to understand what you're saying because the numbers don't support you. Europe has 47 countries and only five are worse than the US on a per capita comparison.
Likeliness of being murdered in the US compared to some of the European countries
14.75 x Luxembourg
5.9 x Germany
4.91 x Spain
3.69 x France
2.46 x Northern Ireland
1.64 x Montenegro (the closest on this side)
Had to know where Canada stood for my own knowledge.
3.93 x Canada
Got my numbers from the CIA fact book. |
Link please?? I can't seem to find these numbers there, and they don't agree with other numbers I've seen.
Wikipedia is a fairly reliable source, and it doesn't at all agree with you.
Aside from this, the assumption is that the US has a high homicide rate, and it's due to gun ownership.. You know, we don't even make the top list of homicides per capita?
So, tell me, other than pointing out that you disagree, using stats that you didn't bother to link to, what exactly is your argument here Venser?
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07/23/2012 12:30:11 PM · #167 |
There are plenty of comparisons that can be made.
Lets change the scale some, and compare the US with another country in our hemisphere that has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world - commensurate with those of Britain. Mexico... |
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07/23/2012 12:34:13 PM · #168 |
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
There are plenty of comparisons that can be made.
Lets change the scale some, and compare the US with another country in our hemisphere that has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world - commensurate with those of Britain. Mexico... |
LOL... Touche.
Indeed a fine comparison.... Doesn't seem those gun control laws have been working out too well....
Of course, you know that everyone is just gonna blame the US here anyway, since clearly, we've just been giving them all the guns and making them kill each other. |
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07/23/2012 12:35:46 PM · #169 |
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
There are plenty of comparisons that can be made.
Lets change the scale some, and compare the US with another country in our hemisphere that has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world - commensurate with those of Britain. Mexico... |
Don't confuse "laws" with "enforcement" :) Mexico might have strict gun laws, but the country also has an extremely corrupt law enforcement, and it doesn't take much to pay the right people to turn a blind eye. |
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07/23/2012 12:46:56 PM · #170 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
There are plenty of comparisons that can be made.
Lets change the scale some, and compare the US with another country in our hemisphere that has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world - commensurate with those of Britain. Mexico... |
Don't confuse "laws" with "enforcement" :) Mexico might have strict gun laws, but the country also has an extremely corrupt law enforcement, and it doesn't take much to pay the right people to turn a blind eye. |
Ok, just for fun, let's play that game.
"laws" vs "enforcement"
Your premise is that laws do not equal enforcement, and therefore a lack of enforcement is the culprit. Ok, let me ask you this:
Do you feel that the US enforces drug laws? If you answer yes, then please tell me why we still are one of the largest consumers of illicit drugs in the world?
Did you ever stop to think that only the folks who behave themselves, and aren't a problem in the first place, are the only ones who follow the laws anyway?
I'll share a bit of first hand knowledge - once you have committed yourself to being a criminal, laws and penalties only become a cost/benefit/risk calculation, they are not somehow magically in place and more-or-less unbreakable like the laws of physics. |
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07/23/2012 12:52:18 PM · #171 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Link please?? I can't seem to find these numbers there, and they don't agree with other numbers I've seen.
Wikipedia is a fairly reliable source, and it doesn't at all agree with you.
Aside from this, the assumption is that the US has a high homicide rate, and it's due to gun ownership.. You know, we don't even make the top list of homicides per capita?
So, tell me, other than pointing out that you disagree, using stats that you didn't bother to link to, what exactly is your argument here Venser? |
Fine, I'll use your links. They show the same thing. Actually, they're even more in my favour.
From Wikipedia, in Europe only Estonia, Moldova, Lithuania, and the Ukraine are worse culprits.
From your second link: Do guns mean more murders?
Might want to vet your sources.
CS
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07/23/2012 12:57:38 PM · #172 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
There are plenty of comparisons that can be made.
Lets change the scale some, and compare the US with another country in our hemisphere that has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world - commensurate with those of Britain. Mexico... |
Don't confuse "laws" with "enforcement" :) Mexico might have strict gun laws, but the country also has an extremely corrupt law enforcement, and it doesn't take much to pay the right people to turn a blind eye. |
Ok, just for fun, let's play that game.
"laws" vs "enforcement"
Your premise is that laws do not equal enforcement, and therefore a lack of enforcement is the culprit. Ok, let me ask you this:
Do you feel that the US enforces drug laws? If you answer yes, then please tell me why we still are one of the largest consumers of illicit drugs in the world?
Did you ever stop to think that only the folks who behave themselves, and aren't a problem in the first place, are the only ones who follow the laws anyway?
I'll share a bit of first hand knowledge - once you have committed yourself to being a criminal, laws and penalties only become a cost/benefit/risk calculation, they are not somehow magically in place and more-or-less unbreakable like the laws of physics. |
They are not more unbreakable, but you ARE more likely to get caught if the enforcement isn't as corrupt. All I am saying is that Mexico is NOT a good comparison. Unfortunately, there is no Western Hemisphere country that is comparable to the U.S. on this regard, at least not directly. Mexico is a red herring. |
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07/23/2012 12:58:14 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Cory:
Link please?? I can't seem to find these numbers there, and they don't agree with other numbers I've seen.
Wikipedia is a fairly reliable source, and it doesn't at all agree with you.
Aside from this, the assumption is that the US has a high homicide rate, and it's due to gun ownership.. You know, we don't even make the top list of homicides per capita?
So, tell me, other than pointing out that you disagree, using stats that you didn't bother to link to, what exactly is your argument here Venser? |
Fine, I'll use your links. They show the same thing. Actually, they're even more in my favour.
From Wikipedia, in Europe only Estonia, Moldova, Lithuania, and the Ukraine are worse culprits.
From your second link: Do guns mean more murders?
Might want to vet your sources.
CS |
Look, I didn't read into their conclusions, as we all know interpretations can vary widely based on given data.
You have still not told me what your argument is, all you're doing is attacking my position without having one of your own, that makes you pretty hard to attack, and me pretty easy.. Although that does seem to sorta be your style.
Let me just give you a quote from the interpretation that you linked to on that source:
"A recent United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime "Global Burden of Armed Violence" study by the UN, shows that firearms cause an average 60% of all homicides."
Hmm, do you see any potential for bias there? Firearms cause homicides huh? Kinda like heat causes fires right?
I suppose we can test your theory by locking up all the evil guns which have been busy killing people and releasing the poor innocent murders that are now wrongly deprived of their freedoms, you know, since it was actually caused by the guns, not the people, I'm sure you'd even be quite happy to have a few of these nice fellows for roommates, as I'm sure they'll need new accommodations once they are released from prison.
Message edited by author 2012-07-23 13:01:58. |
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07/23/2012 01:01:08 PM · #174 |
this thread is on a short leash. It's had an f-bomb and Godwin's law already so it is really a bit of a zombie thread. Keep it on track (as it seems to be now) and it can carry on. Anything else goes awry, and it will be shut down.
Happy Monday! |
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07/23/2012 01:01:24 PM · #175 |
It's not BS. The quote was from THIS article that I meant to link earlier, and the figures were taken from a 2010 study published in the Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection, and Critical Care. Regarding your overall violence claim, the same report noted that "U.S. homicide rates were 6.9 times higher than rates in the other high-income countries, despite similar non-lethal crime and violence rates (as reported in other studies). The firearm homicide rate in the U.S. was 19.5 times higher. The researchers conclude that Ć¢Whatever our basic level of violence, the empirical evidence from ecological, case-control, and other studies indicate that readily accessible firearms - by making killing easy, efficient, and somewhat impersonal - increase the lethality of violenceĆ¢
Message edited by author 2012-07-23 13:01:43. |
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