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02/22/2012 11:29:46 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by mcaldo:
Originally posted by ambaker:
Guns are machines, neither good nor evil.
The parents should never be allowed to own guns again. They have demonstrated their inability to properly secure the gums in their possession. |
Guns are devices designed to kill, specifically and uniquely.
Their widespread and legalized diffusion in a nation which outlaws manslaughter sounds like a bit of a contradiction.
Likewise, in a number of other countries a similar situation would configure a criminal, albeit indirect, responsibility on the parents. Therefore, a good chance to wind up in jail. The fact that such parents should not be allowed any firearm and should be subjected to frequent controls by the police, well, I hope it can given for granted |
No. Guns are designed for many purposes. One of which is to level the playing field between two otherwise mismatched opponents. Like a young mom with an infant whose home is broken into by two knife wielding assailants looking for money. |
You are describing a pretty emotional situation designed not to be discussed without posing as some kind of children hater, ruthless scum
:)
But in no way you are contradicting what I am saying, guns are designed to kill, that's their only function.
Criminals never convicted are given access to guns, legally, and only deprived of this 'right' when they are actually proved guilty of criminal offences. This in itself deprives your police of a mean of preventing offences, I think.
As somebody coming from a place where self-defence and the threat of retaliation were pretty common, and still are the way people live in some places, I can tell you that the problem is a failure of the state to control and enforce effectively. |
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02/22/2012 11:30:17 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
Originally posted by Alexkc:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Less gun murders, perhaps. Countries with stricter gun laws tend to have higher overall crime rates.
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Not only less gun murders. Here in Italy, not the safest place in the world compared with Finland, Sweden, Norway or Iceland, there are not so many murders. I would be scared at living in a place where everyone has a gun... |
You've been watching too many movies. We don't all run around carrying guns.
Personally, I've seen all the God Father movies, and I would be more afraid of living in Italy where everyone is in the Mafia. :-) |
Well, don't worry I simply don't watch stupid movies. But I read a lot and I know a lot of Americans. In the US more than 10.000 people are killed using a gun each year (here there are more or less 200). So I hope you were kidding about the Godfather because here children never shoot other children.
Message edited by author 2012-02-22 23:32:20. |
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02/22/2012 11:32:29 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Perhaps you would need a stronger police presence, or the army to help out, if that's really the case. |
I did not kill the intruders, they put on their brown trousers and ran, but I was about a millisecond away from a firefight in my living room.
It's funny that you mention the police. While their presence is reassuring, they don't really prevent crimes except by chance. They deal with the aftermath. They simply cannot respond fast enough. When seconds count, the police are minutes away. If fact it was a police officer who recommended I get my permit. [/quote]
that's pretty sad..
Thing is, you have a level of uncontrolled criminality which is in sheer contrast with what the US are, in terms of economy and potentiality. |
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02/22/2012 11:34:35 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by mcaldo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by mcaldo:
Originally posted by ambaker:
Guns are machines, neither good nor evil.
The parents should never be allowed to own guns again. They have demonstrated their inability to properly secure the gums in their possession. |
Guns are devices designed to kill, specifically and uniquely.
Their widespread and legalized diffusion in a nation which outlaws manslaughter sounds like a bit of a contradiction.
Likewise, in a number of other countries a similar situation would configure a criminal, albeit indirect, responsibility on the parents. Therefore, a good chance to wind up in jail. The fact that such parents should not be allowed any firearm and should be subjected to frequent controls by the police, well, I hope it can given for granted |
No. Guns are designed for many purposes. One of which is to level the playing field between two otherwise mismatched opponents. Like a young mom with an infant whose home is broken into by two knife wielding assailants looking for money. |
You are describing a pretty emotional situation designed not to be discussed without posing as some kind of children hater, ruthless scum
:)
But in no way you are contradicting what I am saying, guns are designed to kill, that's their only function.
Criminals never convicted are given access to guns, legally, and only deprived of this 'right' when they are actually proved guilty of criminal offences. This in itself deprives your police of a mean of preventing offences, I think.
As somebody coming from a place where self-defence and the threat of retaliation were pretty common, and still are the way people live in some places, I can tell you that the problem is a failure of the state to control and enforce effectively. |
Of course it's an emotional situation, but don't think I made it up just to make a point, it's 100% true.
Which would be more emotional for you, a dead intruder or a dead mother and baby? Pick one.
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02/22/2012 11:36:21 PM · #30 |
| The old European supremecy feelings sure do show up in these gun threads. |
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02/22/2012 11:37:00 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by mcaldo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by mcaldo:
Perhaps you would need a stronger police presence, or the army to help out, if that's really the case. |
I did not kill the intruders, they put on their brown trousers and ran, but I was about a millisecond away from a firefight in my living room.
It's funny that you mention the police. While their presence is reassuring, they don't really prevent crimes except by chance. They deal with the aftermath. They simply cannot respond fast enough. When seconds count, the police are minutes away. If fact it was a police officer who recommended I get my permit. |
that's pretty sad..
Thing is, you have a level of uncontrolled criminality which is in sheer contrast with what the US are, in terms of economy and potentiality. |
You think what? That prosperous countries don't have crime? or that police anywhere actually prevent criminals from acting in all but the most rare cases? |
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02/22/2012 11:37:59 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by Alexkc:
Well, don't worry I simply don't watch stupid movies. But I read a lot and I know a lot of Americans. In the US more than 10.000 people are killed using a gun each year (here there are more or less 200). So I hope you were kidding about the Godfather because here children never shoot other children. |
Well, that's only correct to an extent.
In Naples, you might well find children armed. And there have been cases of adults killed by them.
However, their parents are 'camorra' criminals, not your average Joe.
And they would probably skin alive their son for killing a 9 years old, while they wouldn't so much object to him killing some adult.
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02/22/2012 11:38:10 PM · #33 |
A criminal never convicted is called a citizen...
Everyone should own a weapon.
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02/22/2012 11:41:05 PM · #34 |
| "gun control" is the position that a raped and murdered 20 year old woman is morally preferable to a dead 220 pound rapits. |
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02/22/2012 11:43:46 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by SDW:
[quote=Alexkc] I wonder what stats are used in different countries. I just looked at on report that showed Europe (for example), did not included Vehicular homicide, Involuntary homicide, etc. in there figures. However, the US did. This could skew the reports of how may homicides or murders per 100000 are calculated.
With over 310,000,000 people in the US, the rates per 100,000 have came down to less than 1964 levels. The report also showed Europe dropped as well but Central America has risen. |
I don't know how the stats are calculated but in my country where buying a gun is not easy, involuntary homicedes are very few, I'd say no more than 10 each year. I'm sure about that because Tv news always deal with such tragic events.
About European stats in general I have to say that to consider a continent as a whole is impossible and moreover eastern European countries are much less safe places and the stats should consider that.
ETA: here it's 6 am. I need rest - good night :) |
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02/22/2012 11:46:55 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
You think what? That prosperous countries don't have crime? or that police anywhere actually prevent criminals from acting in all but the most rare cases? |
Well, it's not matter of thinking. It's matter of knowing, as statistics are an objective description of reality, unless the source data or the analysis is bogus.
You have a number of homicides that is percentually higher than in most prosperous countries.
And that arming equally well citizens and criminals does not seem to improve this.
It's not a matter of european imperialistic feelings, a concept which dates back to your declaration of independence, and doesn't sound too realistic at the moment.
It's a matter of self defence in the wake of governmental ability to control and prevent crimes, which dates back to your Far west era and, again, was more understandable then that now.
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02/22/2012 11:47:21 PM · #37 |
To compare the number of gun murders in Italy, to the US, based only on totals, ignores the size difference in population. Per 100,000, in the Us it is 2.98. In Italy it is 1.66. Or about 30% lower. That is less, but not a number I would much less. Our opinion my differ. But it certainly not on the order of the difference between 10,000 and 200.
I would be most afraid to go to a country where there are only two murders a year, if only two other people lived there.
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02/22/2012 11:48:07 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
Guns are machines, neither good nor evil.
Automobiles are also machines. Both are very dangerous if in the wrong hands. If the 9 year old had taken his parents car the would be less hew and cry, but she would be just as injured. Our society lokes to do everything except accept responsibility. The parents are responsible for not properly securing their gun and ammunition. I'm no lawyer, but I would vote for criminal megligemce and child endangerment, in this case. I'd also suggest CPS look at taking the child out of the home. Leaving gums and ammo where a child can get them is a recipe for disaster. |
I agree with that - I'm not really sure how it all works, but can anyone go into a shop and buy a gun? In most circumstances in Australia, you need a license to buy a gun. I believe the law says something along the lines of "Anyone wishing to possess or use a firearm must have a Firearms Licence and, with some exceptions, be over the age of 18. Owners must have secure storage for their firearms". Just like you need a license to drive a car. Fairs fair I think... dangerous machinery = needs a license. |
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02/22/2012 11:48:08 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by mcaldo:
Well, that's only correct to an extent.
In Naples, you might well find children armed. And there have been cases of adults killed by them.
However, their parents are 'camorra' criminals, not your average Joe.
And they would probably skin alive their son for killing a 9 years old, while they wouldn't so much object to him killing some adult. |
Well, this is true, but you know that it happens almost only there in Naples. In the rest of Italy this is quite different. |
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02/22/2012 11:52:07 PM · #40 |
A criminal never convicted is called a citizen... and therefore can own a weapon and do so legally, until it's proved that he is breakign the law..
Perhaps nobody should own a weapon..
I was honestly surprised of the way Clint Eastwood decided to end 'Gran Torino'.
It actually make quite a lot of sense, and perhaps your answer is there.
The only way he manages to get the criminals arrested is by facing them unarmed.
Not quite what Chuck Norris would have done |
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02/22/2012 11:55:11 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by mcaldo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
You think what? That prosperous countries don't have crime? or that police anywhere actually prevent criminals from acting in all but the most rare cases? |
Well, it's not matter of thinking. It's matter of knowing, as statistics are an objective description of reality, unless the source data or the analysis is bogus.
You have a number of homicides that is percentually higher than in most prosperous countries.
And that arming equally well citizens and criminals does not seem to improve this.
It's not a matter of european imperialistic feelings, a concept which dates back to your declaration of independence, and doesn't sound too realistic at the moment.
It's a matter of self defence in the wake of governmental ability to control and prevent crimes, which dates back to your Far west era and, again, was more understandable then that now. |
UK,home of the strictest of gun laws
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02/22/2012 11:56:51 PM · #42 |
The gun laws in Japan I think are partly the reason for the low murder rate (Overall).
Gun owners must go through a process that would seem unimaginable by Western standards. You can only one one for hunting (Therefore only a rifle) or skeet shooting. The people who apply have personal history checks, go through several classes on how to handle a gun. Have to keep their guns locked and ammunition locked in a separate locker. A map of your house/apartment has to be handed to the local police showing where the gun is located in your place. If you belong to any political party or you are an active member in some kind of activist group, you can't apply. At any time the police can decided that you are no longer allowed to own the gun you have, they have complete power over it. You are only allowed to buy a certain amount of ammunition per year and that ammunition also has to be registered. In the end, only the rich get to own guns in Japan.
Crimes between mafia is about the only time you hear about guns/murders. Those guns were also not licensed as they were in almost all cases handguns and then it makes the news on TV. The crime rate is low. People still break into homes but I've rarely heard of anyone being killed after they've been robbed. A convenience store was robbed near my place. I asked the worker what happened. They caught the guy, the gun he had was an airsoft gun (BB gun) and in Japan it's not the law to have the orange pieces on the front to distinguish them between real and fake. Still scary...but in Japan I have never feared for my life, my wallet or anything really when it comes to people. Natural disasters on the other hand are scary and far more people die that way than guns.
I think America, like Canada, is a big country that relied on guns for hunting. It's less so these days. From my understanding of the gun laws in the U.S it's the lack of enforcement of the laws in place and not that there needs to be new laws. I don't own guns but I know several people who do and it's a hobby/sport for them. Target practice, cleaning their guns, collecting guns. Just because we don't think it's such a good hobby doesn't mean it should be taken away from those who practice safe gun control. My hobby (Photography) can be just as expensive and I can get the same looks from people "Why would he spend so much on a camera.". Cameras don't kill, but they can get you trouble and cause a riot. |
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02/22/2012 11:58:20 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Alexkc:
Well, this is true, but you know that it happens almost only there in Naples. In the rest of Italy this is quite different. |
The rest of Naples is quite different too, it doesn't take many bad apples to spoil a place..
But, well, criminality has taken over big time.
I remember visiting a friend in Ercolano. He told me that he wanted to move out and go working in the north, which surprised me because he really loves the south..
But he told me "you see, there are 345 families in town. Mine, my girlfriend's and perhaps other 4 or 5 don't have ties with the camorra"
That was pretty scary, honestly. Yet another fail for the state.
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02/23/2012 12:00:51 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
To compare the number of gun murders in Italy, to the US, based only on totals, ignores the size difference in population. Per 100,000, in the Us it is 2.98. In Italy it is 1.66. Or about 30% lower. That is less, but not a number I would much less. Our opinion my differ. But it certainly not on the order of the difference between 10,000 and 200.
I would be most afraid to go to a country where there are only two murders a year, if only two other people lived there. |
I read stats about homicides and they say 5.5% US and 1.4% Italy. I underestimated what happens in Italy but the difference is still huge.
Good night :) |
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02/23/2012 12:01:56 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by mcaldo:
Originally posted by Alexkc:
Well, this is true, but you know that it happens almost only there in Naples. In the rest of Italy this is quite different. |
The rest of Naples is quite different too, it doesn't take many bad apples to spoil a place..
But, well, criminality has taken over big time.
I remember visiting a friend in Ercolano. He told me that he wanted to move out and go working in the north, which surprised me because he really loves the south..
But he told me "you see, there are 345 families in town. Mine, my girlfriend's and perhaps other 4 or 5 don't have ties with the camorra"
That was pretty scary, honestly. Yet another fail for the state. |
This is sadly true :( |
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02/23/2012 12:03:35 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
Originally posted by sfalice:
There are two families up in Seattle who will hurt for a long time.
In a small town in upstate New York, a long time ago, my husband's father taught girls and boys how to handle guns including rifles. Eventually they named the place where he taught this art "The Bob Steele Memorial rifle range." It's not there anymore. Probably replaced by a bunch of condos.
Still, at that time (and perhaps still) in New York state to carry a gun, you had to get a license you had to prove proficiency,and have your picture and finger print taken and placed on it. Something like a driver's license, don't you know.
So, what's wrong with this picture? Why not do this now? what's the harm. Just asking. |
No argument from me... |
 ambaker has no problem with this scenario.
the licencing of guns after a proficiency exam and an ID card.
How about some of the others in the gun discussion? |
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02/23/2012 12:05:12 AM · #47 |
In every zombie movie those with guns have a better chance of making it to the end credits alive.
Proud owner of a Beretta A391 Extema 2. |
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02/23/2012 12:07:43 AM · #48 |
Show me your papers!
Sound familliar. |
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02/23/2012 12:09:36 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by mcaldo:
Well, it's not matter of thinking. It's matter of knowing, as statistics are an objective description of reality, unless the source data or the analysis is bogus.
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See above.
If I can give you a suggestion, out of experience, I would be wary of articles in UK newspapers opening with phrases such as "since the labour/conservatives have been in power", the press have a pretty obvious agenda at times.
and cherry picking is the favourite sport of many journalist. Criminality statistics are normally referred to the whole of the population and crime rates on a national basis.
Here they are comparing the criminality rate for a large city with the overall criminality rate of other nations..
A Los Angeles/London or New York/London comparison might show a pretty different outcome.
The UN Human Development Report and similar publications are normally deemed reliable as for methods and sources. |
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02/23/2012 12:11:48 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by Alexkc:
I read stats about homicides and they say 5.5% US and 1.4% Italy. I underestimated what happens in Italy but the difference is still huge.
Good night :) |
Don't you mean "per 100,000 population", not "%" ?
TR.
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