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02/23/2012 12:49:04 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
the whole thing with guns over say a baseball bat or mace is, you dont need to get close. it allows you to defend your property at a safe distance. |
Or for those who don't want to shoot, the option to keep them at gunpoint until the authorities can get there and apprehend them.
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02/23/2012 12:50:25 PM · #152 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by bhuge:
I will agree with this, and I think everyone here would also agree with this. The question is what weapons should you be allowed to use to defend your property?
What about land mines? Or maybe an RPG? Both would be very effective and deterring these roaming rapist and murderers that everyone is afraid of.
We have to draw a line somewhere, and in my opinion guns are overkill for self defense. In most situations mace or a taser would be just as effective while still being non-fatal. If you draw the line at guns, all criminals will probably have a gun, which forces all "defenders" to also have a gun to be on an even playing field. It becomes an arms race where everyone has to have the most deadly widely available weapon.
I don't agree with the statement "If you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns". It's proved time and again that outlaws in places like Japan don't typically use guns. They are not widely available which severely limits their use. You can even see the same thing in the US. RPG's are outlawed, so we should be seeing all the criminals use them but we don't.
I think the biggest issue isn't even directly related to guns. The US has some serious issues with fear mongering. Watch any news program and you would think that there are four rapist and murderer queued up outside every home waiting to break into the house. In reality this stuff is insanely rare. So rare that gun related accidents are much more likely to kill you then the random murderer.
I love this country, but this countries love for guns is one of the few reasons I would want to live elsewhere. |
I agree you dont need fully automatic weapons, something that fires a few shots is plenty.
the whole thing with guns over say a baseball bat or mace is, you dont need to get close. it allows you to defend your property at a safe distance. |
It still ends up being an arms race. If guns are legal then the you don't have a "safe distance" because the criminal has a gun too. |
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02/23/2012 12:50:54 PM · #153 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
I agree you dont need fully automatic weapons, something that fires a few shots is plenty.
the whole thing with guns over say a baseball bat or mace is, you dont need to get close. it allows you to defend your property at a safe distance. |
LOL, you do realize how that sounds don't you, its a joke right? |
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02/23/2012 12:54:52 PM · #154 |
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02/23/2012 12:54:52 PM · #155 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
John, you guys have way better coffee and dessert. :) |
And food and wine and art and...well, you get the idea
though I give the Italians the edge in coffee. |
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02/23/2012 12:57:39 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Melethia:
John, you guys have way better coffee and dessert. :) |
And food and wine and art and...well, you get the idea
though I give the Italians the edge in coffee. |
the toast is good too. |
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02/23/2012 12:58:28 PM · #157 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Melethia:
John, you guys have way better coffee and dessert. :) |
And food and wine and art and...well, you get the idea
though I give the Italians the edge in coffee. |
the toast is good too. |
And the fries. :)
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02/23/2012 12:58:56 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by mike_311:
I agree you dont need fully automatic weapons, something that fires a few shots is plenty.
the whole thing with guns over say a baseball bat or mace is, you dont need to get close. it allows you to defend your property at a safe distance. |
LOL, you do realize how that sounds don't you, its a joke right? |
A gun is an equalizer. It doesn't depend on great physical strength to be effective. With a gun, a 90 lb woman can defend herself against a 200lb assailant. Give the woman a knife or other weapon and you've tilted the playing field greatly in favor of the assailant. |
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02/23/2012 01:03:29 PM · #159 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by mike_311:
I agree you dont need fully automatic weapons, something that fires a few shots is plenty.
the whole thing with guns over say a baseball bat or mace is, you dont need to get close. it allows you to defend your property at a safe distance. |
LOL, you do realize how that sounds don't you, its a joke right? |
A gun is an equalizer. It doesn't depend on great physical strength to be effective. With a gun, a 90 lb woman can defend herself against a 200lb assailant. Give the woman a knife or other weapon and you've tilted the playing field greatly in favor of the assailant. |
Mace and tasers are fairly light. I think a 90 lb woman can handle them. It also doesn't take great physical strength to swing a bat (or golf club) and have very effective results. A knife takes actual still to effectively use, but if it's a knife vs. a taser, my money is on the taser. |
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02/23/2012 01:07:09 PM · #160 |
| I don't know how I got sucked into this debate :) I tried so hard to ignore it. I'm at work and should probably actually get some work done... |
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02/23/2012 01:08:32 PM · #161 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
why would it be a joke? |
Well you have to try and see things from my point of veiw, we never ever lock the doors, most of time we leave the keys in the cars all night, I do a lot of building work and I have a barn full of tools and machines and stuff, honestly I'm not sure where the key to the barn is right now so when I heard you say defending my property at a distance, i truly thought you must be joking. |
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02/23/2012 01:14:43 PM · #162 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by mike_311:
why would it be a joke? |
Well you have to try and see things from my point of veiw, we never ever lock the doors, most of time we leave the keys in the cars all night, I do a lot of building work and I have a barn full of tools and machines and stuff, honestly I'm not sure where the key to the barn is right now so when I heard you say defending my property at a distance, i truly thought you must be joking. |
Growing up, I lived in Charlotte, NC and we locked our doors at night. When my husband and I moved to Smyrna, TN, we didn't lock the doors, left the keys in the car, didn't think twice. Moved to Lincolnton, NC and did the same. Moved to Salisbury, NC and locked the doors again. Moved to Oklahoma and went back to no doors locked, keys in car, etc.
Moved to WV, and still the same.
It all depends on where you live if you need to "lock your doors". And just because I don't lock the doors doesn't mean someone wont try and break in, anymore than locking my doors means it will keep someone out.
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02/23/2012 01:16:07 PM · #163 |
Belgium has the fries. The French, not so much. :)
And yes, there are places even in the US where I rarely locked my door.
Now Germany... can't leave the door unlocked if you wanted to. I found that out the hard way. |
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02/23/2012 01:17:44 PM · #164 |
Most gun owners are responsible common sense people for the most part. There's always going to be the few bad guys. To answer  jagar question if I feel safer having my 9mm on the night stand while we are sleeping. Yes. If the bad guy is bold enough to break in while the people are home it usually doesn't go well. But that's so far and in between I 'll really don't think about it. I would say 80% of the time if the bad guy would break the door down the gun would be worthless, out of reach. Home safety is vey small part why some of us have guns. We collect them. Use them for hunting and competition games. I really like target shooting myself. They are great for the family who loves the out doors. Like anything it's the few who screw's it up for the masses. Any one watch "Top Shot" it would be fun shooting all those different weapons. And what is a thread with out some pictures. Third generation marksman. The BB gun the little one has was my son's first gun 20 plus years ago. Family Fun |
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02/23/2012 01:17:44 PM · #165 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Belgium has the fries. The French, not so much. :)
And yes, there are places even in the US where I rarely locked my door.
Now Germany... can't leave the door unlocked if you wanted to. I found that out the hard way. |
I will have to keep that in mind when traveling... about the fries that is... and the doors being locked in Germany. Though I think if I traveled anywhere, I would probably lock up. Just being new to the area and all.
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02/23/2012 01:19:07 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by ace flyman:
Most gun owners are responsible common sense people for the most part. There's always going to be the few bad guys. To answer jagar question if I feel safer having my 9mm on the night stand while we are sleeping. Yes. If the bad guy is bold enough to break in while the people are home it usually doesn't go well. But that's so far and in between I 'll really don't think about it. I would say 80% of the time if the bad guy would break the door down the gun would be worthless, out of reach. Home safety is vey small part why some of us have guns. We collect them. Use them for hunting and competition games. I really like target shooting myself. They are great for the family who loves the out doors. Like anything it's the few who screw's it up for the masses. Any one watch "Top Shot" it would be fun shooting all those different weapons. And what is a thread with out some pictures. Third generation marksman. The BB gun the little one has was my son's first gun 20 plus years ago. Family Fun |
Top Shot is awesome! My hubby and I watch it all the time. It would be a blast (literally) to learn how to use all those weapons!
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02/23/2012 01:21:25 PM · #167 |
| I was stationed there so lived in a nice small German town for three years. The doors are built in such a way, at least where I was, that they only open with a key. The knob itself is stationary and doesn't even turn. |
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02/23/2012 01:26:13 PM · #168 |
wow late to the party interesting read
i like guns, dont know why maybe the boyish geek in me that like guns, cameras, computers, diggers, cars, trucks etc but i dont feel the need to have one for protection
i shoot clay pigeon with a 12 gauge and keep it at my parents farm, if i used it to kill an intruder id be up for murder unless he's shot me first, thats assuming i could get it out the cabinet and then the ammo from a seperate locked bit
all this talk about killing an intruder, would you really kill another human being for taking your dvd player? is a human life worth that little?
heres how i see it, ive never had an intruder break into the house and try and murder me, yeah my house as been broken into when i was out and having a gun or a challenger 2 mbt wouldnt have made a squat of difference
you cant argue with the facts the more guns there are the more gun related murders they're are....
i used to live in manchester, formerly known as gunchester and there was a real bad phase of shootings and murders in the early nineties etc but do you know who was being shot and killed? other gang members and criminals, yeah occassioanlly there was a tragedy of an innocent caught in the cross fire but the idea of everyone having guns is safer is prosperous and proven by the stats.
my uncle was MD of total fina elf in South africa for 10 years, he lived rd the corner from mandellas house in houghton opposite the golfcourse and staying at his house was awful, he had two armed guards with ak47s and german shepards and buttons in every house to summon a private armed response unit, not to mention the mains electric fence and bullet proof bmw. it was awful and added to the fear of the palce not making me feel more secure,
after the killings at dunblain im pleased they band handguns and after hungerford in the 70's they band anything with more than a 3 shot capacity
as for the right to bare arms, isn't that in realtion to the right to fight for your country and not to own a gun?
like jagar my parents farm door is always open and the barns and diggers all have the keys in them, i guess isolation is a form of security but one things for sure if someone is breaking in and they know there are guns in a house they will bring guns...
our police arent even armed the rest of europe most the cops have guns, and its rare for guns to be used against the police
peace and love man :) |
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02/23/2012 01:39:21 PM · #169 |
Originally posted by bhuge:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by mike_311:
I agree you dont need fully automatic weapons, something that fires a few shots is plenty.
the whole thing with guns over say a baseball bat or mace is, you dont need to get close. it allows you to defend your property at a safe distance. |
LOL, you do realize how that sounds don't you, its a joke right? |
A gun is an equalizer. It doesn't depend on great physical strength to be effective. With a gun, a 90 lb woman can defend herself against a 200lb assailant. Give the woman a knife or other weapon and you've tilted the playing field greatly in favor of the assailant. |
Mace and tasers are fairly light. I think a 90 lb woman can handle them. It also doesn't take great physical strength to swing a bat (or golf club) and have very effective results. A knife takes actual still to effectively use, but if it's a knife vs. a taser, my money is on the taser. |
Mace is illegal. Pepper spray isn't...sort of. Indoors, you're just as likely to incapacitate yourself with the stuff as you are the bad guy. Now he's pissed off even more.
Tasers are illegal. There's also a reason the cops still carry firearms along with tasers.
Blunt weapons? Unless you're very sneaky and get behind the guy without him seeing you it's unlikely you'll get a clear shot. Then, what do you do about his buddy?
Inside 21 feet, my money is on the guy with the knife.
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02/23/2012 01:43:07 PM · #170 |
Not being a "gun owner" as such, nor being afraid of robbers or burglars, I still support a citizen's right to bear arms. From an American standpoint, many of us look back to our Declaration of Independence and to the notion that we are endowed by our Creator with certain rights, and to the Constitution and Bill of Rights, which limits the governments scope of control in our lives (not so much adhered to as it should be). Not rights that the government grants, but rights that are ours, government or no. We understand the need to be as safe as possible, and to keep known felons and unstable people from killing the rest of us. We feel the tragedy of people wounded or killed needlessly by gun-foolishness or rage or criminality. But some of us DO feel a need for more protection than the police can possibly ever provide. Many of us feel that part of American liberty is being responsible for making our own decisions in matters of personal protection...that this government that is in place to serve us, not vice-versa, should not be able to make those decisions for us.
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02/23/2012 02:05:29 PM · #171 |
this story was just shown on the local news last night... its so sad...
Message edited by author 2012-02-23 14:05:44. |
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02/23/2012 02:07:28 PM · #172 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Tasers are illegal. There's also a reason the cops still carry firearms along with tasers.
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Tasers are legal in almost every state (43 of 50). A blanket statement saying they are illegal is a little misleading. I would also argue that they can be more effective than a gun. If you shoot an assailant there is a decent chance he will shoot back. Tasers are so debilitating that they couldn't shoot back if they wanted to.
Message edited by author 2012-02-23 14:08:16. |
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02/23/2012 02:10:46 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by bhuge:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Tasers are illegal. There's also a reason the cops still carry firearms along with tasers.
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Tasers are legal in almost every state (43 of 50). A blanket statement saying they are illegal is a little misleading. I would also argue that they can be more effective than a gun. If you shoot an assailant there is a decent chance he will shoot back. Tasers are so debilitating that they couldn't shoot back if they wanted to. |
A shot to the head and there's a good chance he won't be shooting back. Just saying
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02/23/2012 02:12:16 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by Giles_uk:
wow late to the party interesting read
i like guns, dont know why maybe the boyish geek in me that like guns, cameras, computers, diggers, cars, trucks etc but i dont feel the need to have one for protection
i shoot clay pigeon with a 12 gauge and keep it at my parents farm, if i used it to kill an intruder id be up for murder unless he's shot me first, thats assuming i could get it out the cabinet and then the ammo from a seperate locked bit
all this talk about killing an intruder, would you really kill another human being for taking your dvd player? is a human life worth that little?
heres how i see it, ive never had an intruder break into the house and try and murder me, yeah my house as been broken into when i was out and having a gun or a challenger 2 mbt wouldnt have made a squat of difference
you cant argue with the facts the more guns there are the more gun related murders they're are....
i used to live in manchester, formerly known as gunchester and there was a real bad phase of shootings and murders in the early nineties etc but do you know who was being shot and killed? other gang members and criminals, yeah occassioanlly there was a tragedy of an innocent caught in the cross fire but the idea of everyone having guns is safer is prosperous and proven by the stats.
my uncle was MD of total fina elf in South africa for 10 years, he lived rd the corner from mandellas house in houghton opposite the golfcourse and staying at his house was awful, he had two armed guards with ak47s and german shepards and buttons in every house to summon a private armed response unit, not to mention the mains electric fence and bullet proof bmw. it was awful and added to the fear of the palce not making me feel more secure,
after the killings at dunblain im pleased they band handguns and after hungerford in the 70's they band anything with more than a 3 shot capacity
as for the right to bare arms, isn't that in realtion to the right to fight for your country and not to own a gun?
like jagar my parents farm door is always open and the barns and diggers all have the keys in them, i guess isolation is a form of security but one things for sure if someone is breaking in and they know there are guns in a house they will bring guns...
our police arent even armed the rest of europe most the cops have guns, and its rare for guns to be used against the police
peace and love man :) |
I don't think anyone here wants to kill another person. I'm certainly not going to do it over "stuff". As I said earlier, I can get new stuff. I can't replace myself or my kids. If someone breaks into my house when I'm there, I cannot afford the luxury of assuming they are only after stuff. If they break in while I'm not there, the alarm will call the police and they can call me to tell me about it. |
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02/23/2012 02:15:30 PM · #175 |
Originally posted by dyridings:
Originally posted by bhuge:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Tasers are illegal. There's also a reason the cops still carry firearms along with tasers.
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Tasers are legal in almost every state (43 of 50). A blanket statement saying they are illegal is a little misleading. I would also argue that they can be more effective than a gun. If you shoot an assailant there is a decent chance he will shoot back. Tasers are so debilitating that they couldn't shoot back if they wanted to. |
A shot to the head and there's a good chance he won't be shooting back. Just saying |
True, but in my limited knowledge of gun training I remember learning that you should never shoot for the head. The chance of missing is too great compared with the chest.
I guess I still just don't see the need for such drastic measures of self defense. This coming from someone living in the US, with a wife and two small kids. |
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