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08/21/2008 10:58:05 PM · #126 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
This would be very interesting and a major breakthrough in science. We would have to completely revise our understanding of the world. (Oh and by the way, Randi would give you $1,000,000 for just a little demonstration, you don't even have to explain anyting, just show it to him.) |
i think most (or even all) religions would not exist today if they had been subjected to Mr Randi's tests. Samuel94720, do you believe in your god? |
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08/21/2008 11:05:25 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by Sam94720:
This would be very interesting and a major breakthrough in science. We would have to completely revise our understanding of the world. (Oh and by the way, Randi would give you $1,000,000 for just a little demonstration, you don't even have to explain anyting, just show it to him.) |
i think most (or even all) religions would not exist today if they had been subjected to Mr Randi's tests. |
Yeah... boy, I wish people had been forced to use their friggin brains way back when. :-( |
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08/22/2008 12:05:54 AM · #128 |
Originally posted by Trinch:
To claim the existence of a sixth sense, the first thing you have to determine is what you are sensing. |
Well obviously humans have developed the subconscious ability to detect sixes. A simple demonstration in case Randi is watching: look through any scores thread and you'll see that people only seem to care about even thresholds, 5.000, 6.000, 7.000... most commonly 6. This is not random. We've simply evolved a high sensitivity to sixes... a sixth sense! Nobody calls attention to 5.55 or 4.44 in a scores thread, but 6.66? Red alert! Red alert! Whoop, whoop! Our sixth sense goes nuts. This is a repeatable phenomenon well outside of random chance. Randi, make your check payable to Shannon at... ;-P
Message edited by author 2008-08-22 00:06:39. |
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08/22/2008 02:27:33 AM · #129 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by crayon:
Dear Samuel94720 - Its a matter of perception. Just look at your reply to my initial comment above. There are so many assumptions from your part that I'm giving up trying to correct you :D |
Please do. Correct my assumptions. Tell me about your perceptions. |
umm, nah, guess not... i think this world needs as much idiots as it does with geniuses so that nature is balanced ;) |
Ehhm, is that a compliment or an insult? Which role do you play?
I'm very disappointed by your style of arguing. You basically say "I'm obviously right and you are wrong and I could easily point out all the many flaws in your argument.". However, when I ask you to please do so, you just make another short and silly comment. I hope you realize that two people both arguing like you would not get anywhere. And if they had to get along together, their non-discussion would quickly turn to violence.
Originally posted by crayon:
i think most (or even all) religions would not exist today if they had been subjected to Mr Randi's tests. Samuel94720, do you believe in your god? |
Which god are you referring to? |
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08/22/2008 03:48:45 AM · #130 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by crayon:
i think most (or even all) religions would not exist today if they had been subjected to Mr Randi's tests. Samuel94720, do you believe in your god? |
Which god are you referring to? |
yours |
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08/22/2008 07:56:29 AM · #131 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by crayon:
i think most (or even all) religions would not exist today if they had been subjected to Mr Randi's tests. Samuel94720, do you believe in your god? |
Which god are you referring to? |
yours |
You cannot compare belief in God and belief in UFOs or telepathy! |
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08/22/2008 08:29:21 AM · #132 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by crayon:
i think most (or even all) religions would not exist today if they had been subjected to Mr Randi's tests. Samuel94720, do you believe in your god? |
Which god are you referring to? |
yours |
You cannot compare belief in God and belief in UFOs or telepathy! |
I think you have to allow the point that, through religious faith, a lot of people believe in something that is not empirically demonstrable. |
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08/22/2008 08:36:42 AM · #133 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
And maybe your ability is uncontrollable and unpredictable because it simply doesn't exist and it's all just random coincidences that you attribute to something in hindsight. |
Or not......maybe it's just what it is, regardless of what you think.
See, that's the thing.....just 'cause you say it ain't so, doesn't make it so.
I've had enough instances that I know it exists.....I don't really care whether you believe it or not, and personally, having followed your efforts to explain, debunk, or just plain dismiss what people here have stated, I have to wonder what it is you're trying to accomplish.
You really think that those of us who have had these experiences are either going to change what they know, or feel because we haven't proven anything to you?
Ain't happenin'.
It's real, it happens, and whether you believe it or not doesn't change a thing.
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08/22/2008 08:42:06 AM · #134 |
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:
"In science, one must keep track of the misses and not just the hits."
How Stuff Works: Skeptics and the Supernatural
People who are inclined to believe in supernatural explanations will overemphasize data that appears to support their hypotheses - the hits - while ignoring or underemphasizing the data that undermines their hypotheses - the misses. Whenever supernatural claims have been subjected to credible analysis, there has never been any indication that whatever "hits" may have been occurring are outside of the realm we should expect just from random chance.
In other words - there is no sixth sense. |
To you.....
Just because you haven't experienced it, or it hasn't been documented doesn't mean it's not very real to those of us who have.
I don't like things that happen with no explanation any better than the next guy.
But just because I don't personally understand, or have experience with nuclear fusion doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
There have been documented examples of paranormal experiences, prescience, various forms of happenstance that don't fall into the normal realm......and there's always someone there with an explanation, and a reason whjy it isn't true.
That's fine, but once again, that doesn't make it true, it's just another possibility.
People don't like to accept that there are things that are inexplicable......it scares them when things outside their control happen.......lotta motivation to conjure up a reason and a theory and cling to it tenaciously.
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08/22/2008 08:50:36 AM · #135 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
You cannot compare belief in God and belief in UFOs or telepathy! |
Why not?
'Cause YOU say so?
According to your own relative parameters, it's directly comparable.
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08/22/2008 08:51:47 AM · #136 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Sam94720:
You cannot compare belief in God and belief in UFOs or telepathy! |
Why not?
'Cause YOU say so?
According to your own relative parameters, it's directly comparable. |
Are you seriously arguing that belief in God and belief in paranormal phenomena like UFOs, telepathy, etc. is equally irrational? |
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08/22/2008 08:52:59 AM · #137 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
There have been documented examples of paranormal experiences, prescience, various forms of happenstance that don't fall into the normal realm......and there's always someone there with an explanation, and a reason whjy it isn't true. |
Please go ahead and give us the most convincing example you've ever come across. |
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08/22/2008 08:58:43 AM · #138 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Sam94720:
You cannot compare belief in God and belief in UFOs or telepathy! |
Why not?
'Cause YOU say so?
According to your own relative parameters, it's directly comparable. |
Are you seriously arguing that belief in God and belief in paranormal phenomena like UFOs, telepathy, etc. is equally irrational? |
While having no mandate to speak for  NikonJeb, I'd say that was a reasonable argument. There's more consensus for the god thing, probably. I don't think consensus per se, especially when not related to objective empiri, is acceptable as proof within the parameters of scientific method though. |
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08/22/2008 08:59:11 AM · #139 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It's real, it happens, and whether you believe it or not doesn't change a thing. |
Come now, Jeb. You're a better debater than that! What if I said ESP is NOT real, and whether you believe it or not doesn't change a thing? While you may firmly believe it exists, we're talking about an apparent phenomenon that could easily be proven to exist under controlled conditions if it were true. Unlike religious claims, this is not defined as intangible and unknowable, and the burden of proof rests on the claimants.
Anecdote: when I was 13-14, I used to amaze my family and friends by predicting the weather– not in a general forecast way, but with very specific calls. For example, in the middle of a drought with 0% chance of rain in the official forecast, I would tell people at 9am that we'd have a thunderstorm at 4:15pm. In a few dozen attempts I never missed. Not once... and the predicted time was never off by more than 30 minutes. ESP? LOL, no. |
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08/22/2008 09:02:03 AM · #140 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Please go ahead and give us the most convincing example you've ever come across. |
Well, you could convincingly argue that my dream (described on page 1 of this thread) was a coincidence, and I'll accept that, but you would have to admit it's a pretty strong coincidence. The girl I dreamed about was not a friend. I knew her (small town, shared a couple of high school classes), but nothing that I knew would indicate she was likely to be injured (i.e., she wasn't a gymnast, rock climber, etc.).
Message edited by author 2008-08-22 09:03:33. |
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08/22/2008 09:08:55 AM · #141 |
Trying to stay kind of in the correct vein as it applies to undocumented/undocumentable phenomenae......
Ball Lightning
This phenomenon is mentioned by people who have been, or lived, in the midwestern US and the surrounding mountainous areas. My wife and I spent a harrowing hour or so driving down out of the Grand Tetons during a wild electrical storm on our way back across the country. These giant balls, what appeared top be 2-5 feet across, looked just like giant Roman candles firing these things around.....I'll bet we saw a good dozen or so 'til the storm slacked off.
Now, according to all scientific documented data, ball lightning does NOT exist.
Okay......
I know what I saw, my wife was right beside me, and it wasn't just one random ball, it was a dozen of them......and they were freakin' SCARY!!!!
And if I'd gotten pictures, there'd be a horde of experts debunking the whole thing.
My point is that experiences can almost always be armchair-quarterbacked right out of existence, but that doesn't change a thing for the people who lived them.
I know from my own experiences that there is such a thing as a sixth sense.....from things that have happened to or for me.
I related an experience that happened to me at my repair shop where I actually kind of startled a customer in this manner......if I could find him, I'm sure he'd back up the strangeness of the experience. I really don't care whther or not anyone believes it or not, I merely shared it as an accounting of my experience, not as scientific proof. Those who have experienced similar things may be uintrigued, those of you who vehemently refuse to entertain the possibility that it happened.....so be it.
But *I* know........8>)
Personally, I feel a little sad for anyone who has never had the good fortune to experience anything that could be construed as a miracle, no matter in what context it may be.......and I just mean something wondrous and inexplicable that we cannot fathom, not in the biblical sense.
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08/22/2008 09:14:34 AM · #142 |
Originally posted by citymars:
you could convincingly argue that my dream (described on page 1 of this thread) was a coincidence, and I'll accept that, but you would have to admit it's a pretty strong coincidence. |
You probably have several thousand dreams every year. The odds of coincidental events along the way are probably quite high, and those will be memorable. I'll bet it would be extremely unusual for someone NOT to experience a few strong coincidences in 50 years.
Message edited by author 2008-08-22 09:17:04. |
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08/22/2008 09:19:38 AM · #143 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Sam94720:
You cannot compare belief in God and belief in UFOs or telepathy! |
Why not?
'Cause YOU say so?
According to your own relative parameters, it's directly comparable. |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Are you seriously arguing that belief in God and belief in paranormal phenomena like UFOs, telepathy, etc. is equally irrational? |
No, I'm saying *NONE* of it's irrational.....that's my point, you put your spin on it and say it's irrational.
To you, maybe it is, to me it's not.
I have experienced happenstances that I can directly attribute to a sixth sense, I've seen a UFO (At the same time as a group of other people in broad daylight.), and I know there's a God, if for no other reason, the beauty and wonder of my daughter.
Debunk away, but you'll never change my mind with your "Rational" attempts at explanation.
Belief and faith are not mutually exclusive of rationale......and I *DO* choose, knowing what I know, and seeing what I have, to have faith, and belief, in God, UFOs, and a sixth sense.
I'm not an ingenue in this world with no eductaion or inate inquisitiveness, and I have been many places and seen a lot in life.
And you cannot possibly intelligently dismiss any of my experiences or beliefs for the primary reason that you simply were not there.
Dude, I'm more than twice your age, and trust me, the older you get, the more you'll realize how little you know if you ever get down off that self-indulgent arrogance.
I'm not necessarily saying that I know more than you, I'm smart enough to realize that that may be in error, and that I certainly do NOT know it all......one place you've not yet learned to be.
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08/22/2008 09:34:22 AM · #144 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It's real, it happens, and whether you believe it or not doesn't change a thing. |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Come now, Jeb. You're a better debater than that! What if I said ESP is NOT real, and whether you believe it or not doesn't change a thing? While you may firmly believe it exists, we're talking about an apparent phenomenon that could easily be proven to exist under controlled conditions if it were true. Unlike religious claims, this is not defined as intangible and unknowable, and the burden of proof rests on the claimants. |
Yeah, I should have qualified that to limit it to my own belief system based on my experience(s).
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08/22/2008 09:54:01 AM · #145 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Dude, I'm more than twice your age, and trust me, the older you get, the more you'll realize how little you know if you ever get down off that self-indulgent arrogance. |
This is a frequent line of attack in your discussions, which is dismaying and largely irrelevant. Also, unsubtlely mixing insults in with the points you make devalues the rest of what you say. |
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08/22/2008 10:07:22 AM · #146 |
Last year, my mom took my then 10 year old to Florida to visit with her parents. I'm was kinda lame back then, so I decided to go to BINGO by myself :). Suddenly, during the 4th or 5th game, I got a hot flash from hell! I sweated and sweated. My whole body was flushed red. I noticed it was 8:40, nowhere near the mid-break. Finally, it got so bad I gave my $40 pack of cards to the strange lady next to me and somehow made it to the car.
By the time I got home I was feeling a LOT better. I went to bed and slept like a baby for 9 hours.
A couple of days later I was talking to my mom and she asked me if I'd been to BINGO (she's a BINGO fanatic, I haven't been in years). I told her the story of what happened and she was flabbergasted. She said that very same night and time, my daughter, Karyn, developed a horrid fever. Mom hadn't mentioned it because Karyn quickly got better and she didn't want to worry me 'cause I was anxious about her going in the first place. Apparently, around 9pm, when it got up to 103, they gave her some tylenol PM and put her in a bath of ice water. Her temperature went down fairly quickly and she soon was sound asleep. |
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08/22/2008 10:30:31 AM · #147 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Dude, I'm more than twice your age, and trust me, the older you get, the more you'll realize how little you know if you ever get down off that self-indulgent arrogance. |
Originally posted by Louis:
This is a frequent line of attack in your discussions, which is dismaying and largely irrelevant. Also, unsubtlely mixing insults in with the points you make devalues the rest of what you say. |
Some reason you didn't include the qualifier that was below my statement?
I'm not necessarily saying that I know more than you, I'm smart enough to realize that that may be in error, and that I certainly do NOT know it all......one place you've not yet learned to be.
I've gotten the impression that Sam has been largely dismissing what he hears and doesn't choose to believe within his parameters.
My intention was not to denigrate him.....merely to pass on my impression.
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08/22/2008 10:50:25 AM · #148 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I have experienced happenstances that I can directly attribute to a sixth sense, I've seen a UFO (At the same time as a group of other people in broad daylight.), and I know there's a God, if for no other reason, the beauty and wonder of my daughter. |
We have two facts here: You saw a flying object you could not identify and you consider your daughter beautiful and wonderful. Ok, all good so far.
But then we come to the next step where you look for an explanation of these facts.
In the first case, you conclude that paranormal forces are at work. This step makes no sense at all, sorry. What leads you to believe that anything supernatural is at work?
In the second case, you conclude that God exists. This step makes no sense at all, sorry again. (And even if, how do you choose the god responsible?)
And then:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
No, I'm saying *NONE* of it's irrational.....that's my point, you put your spin on it and say it's irrational.
[...]
Debunk away, but you'll never change my mind with your "Rational" attempts at explanation. |
So rational thinking won't work for you, but at the same time you claim that your thinking is not irrational. So it must be something in between. Please elaborate.
You also say that nothing will ever change your mind. So I have to conclude that your belief in paranormal phenomena is of a religious nature and independent of reality. |
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08/22/2008 10:59:23 AM · #149 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Some reason you didn't include the qualifier that was below my statement? |
Yes, it sounded like an excuse. |
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08/22/2008 11:29:12 AM · #150 |
| Wish I had 6th sense to see why the voters are scoring me low! |
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