Is there a "sixth sense"? - DPChallenge Forums

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08/24/2008 11:10:19 AM · #226

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by love32907:
I choose to freely serve God (He doesn't make me)... living on what the Word of God says is a very small price to pay to go to heaven. It's a good life in my opinion :)

Originally posted by scalvert:
Interesting. You believe an invisible deity doesn't make you serve... you merely "choose" to do exactly what ancient authors claim He wants you to do to avoid a promise of death, eternal torment and suffering. I wonder if a slave or prisoner of war would also consider willing servitude under threats of torture and death "free will?"

P.S. Heaven, if it existed, would be a good afterlife by definition.

Originally posted by dponlyme:
Interesting the way you twist things.

You don't think Shannon has a valid point?

I have always struggled with the meaning of happenstances such as a perfectly normal, regular family who just happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, their 10 year old daughter is brutally raped, dismembered, and then thrown into a dumpster....it happens to people who dedicate there lives to God.

How do you reconcile things like that?

How do you reconcile slavery and prisoners of war, either?

Especially if the slaves/prisoners have pledged their life to God?

The pat answer is that it's not for us to know, but it sure flies in the face of all we are supposed to know about a good and merciful God, and a rational, reasoned person would have a hard time accepting these things on faith.

I know I have a hard time accepting the death of my nephew to SIDS....after the sixth month battle his brother made to live and all my sister went through with him.....to have the second child be a trouble free birthing and have him just die at six months?

What's that all about?

Sorry.....didn't mean to digress, I just get a degree of angst with total blind faith.

Mine's conditional, and I just really believe that God lets us screw up......whether or not you can accept that in any degree is up to the individual.

I just haven't gotten anywhere with serial killers, and their victims, and other kinds of horrors that are beyond my comprehension.

I think you misunderstand shannon's comment... not saying that bad things happen to good people they are saying that we as Christians say we 'choose' to serve God under the threat of eternal damnation. Shannon is saying that it's not much of a choice its coercion. I think that is twisting things.

As far as bad things happening to good people and such... read the Bible... God does not promise everyone a comfortable and easy life with no heartache. He does say that he will provide for your needs if you seek His Kingdom.

love32907

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

08/24/2008 01:17:06 PM · #227

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

There's certainly merit in the concept that a sixth sense could be God-given.

If you believe so, anyway.

Yes I do believe so :) That was my origional point in this thread. lol.

If I had known it was going to spiral out of control I wouldn't have even posted it.

I just thought that people would like to hear about an opinion that hadn't really been shared yet :)

(and if anyone is interested in hearing about people before Jesus or an atempt to explain why bad things happen to people serving God, let me know and I will start a new thread.)

BeeCee

Nikon D40

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

08/24/2008 01:24:17 PM · #228

Love, just a friendly tip; around here, if it relates to religion you can be pretty confident it'll spiral out of control ;)
But don't worry about it, it seems the original topic has run its course anyway.

08/24/2008 01:55:37 PM · #229

Originally posted by dponlyme:

No on both counts for me.

I agree with Shannon, especially where the tenets and history of Catholicism show this to be the case exactly.

Originally posted by dponlyme:

As far as bad things happening to good people and such... read the Bible... God does not promise everyone a comfortable and easy life with no heartache. He does say that he will provide for your needs if you seek His Kingdom.

Okay, what's the diff???

You're dangling a carrot; Shannon's saying the glass is half empty.

I know the OP has gotten disgusted with this thread headed down this path, but part of where I come from with it is that the same thing that works for me in a God, is the same thing that makes me know that I have incidents of a sixth sense.

Thing is, I don't have to prove it to someone else to know that it has happened, the same way that intuition and "gut reaction", that little side journey someone made, exist, at least from what I've seen.

What strikes me as odd is that one of the proponents of proof, our Randi fan, is of the opinion that I, and others need an explanation, answer, or just blindly belive something irrational.

I exist in a state of constant verification and learning....answers to ongoing questions change and appear.

If it looks like a duck, has webbed feet and quacks, I pretty much feel that it's a duck, based on having seen ducks before. That doesn't mean that if I round a corner behind the barn some day and see a weasel get out of a duck suit that I won't file that away for future reference.....it just changes the stats....a little.....8>)

Once when I was about ten, a black cat crossed my path.....later that same day, I got my finger caught in a piece of machinery and mutilated it to a point where to this day the end of it is misshapen.

Ever since that day I have been drawn to black cats, and have actually LIKED the ones I've had a little more than cats of another color. How much sense does that make????

I know that's not a sixth sense thing per se, but it sure is a weird, inexplicable, and not very rational process.

It's funny, but talking about cats makes me think of the whole intuitive thing......they can *ALWAYS* tell when I'm other sick or down in the dumps......and will cluster around me and show me attention.

I know, you're gonna say, animals are more perceptive, but how does it work when I come home and without even seeing them, they'll find me and hang around me 'cause I'm sad?

I just thought of another thing......I frequently meet people, and this is predominantly with women, who after a few minutes will tell me things about themselves, experiences or feelings, and either stop partway through, or at the end and say, "Wow, I've never told that to another living soul, ever!".

Okay, I'm easy to talk to, but HOW does someone I've just met get the feeling that they can tell me anything and I won't hurt them or use that against them later? How can they tell that I'm different in such a manner that they know I understand differently than most people?

Isn't that feeling kind of a reverse sixth sense, but there all the same?

And another......I was just on vacation, got a book that when I got back to where I was staying, I realized I'd already read it. I went to the bookstore, was looking for something to replace it, and one of the new releases that I saw just had this unmistakable draw.....nothing I'd heard of, and an author I'd never read, so while I semi-consciously wondered about its apparent draw, I didn't think anything about it 'til three days later when my daughter came home with the book.....and I found out that it was the brand new fourth book just released of a series that she was awaiting.

She had NEVER mentioned the books or the author to me because she just assumed that I'd have no interest in the genre.

Must be a coincidence.....

See, if I tell Randi that this and such plane is going to crash, where and when, and it does, I'm a million richer, and a scary and amazing guy but just knowing that I had to buy that book, which also as it turned out was the first day it was released, is just dumb luck, right?

This kind of thing happens to me fairly regularly, I don't attach much importance to it, it's really no big thing, it just IS.....

Heck, how long has this thread been going and I didn't even remember this stuff?

But I can't do this stuff on command, and I never know when it's going to happen.....or where, or how. It's always a during or after the fact kind of thing.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

08/24/2008 01:58:08 PM · #230

Originally posted by BeeCee:

You know, for someone who started a thread on something as controversial and ethereal as a sixth sense, you sure don't seem to want to explore anything that goes outside your scope......at least as you're coming across in my tiny-brained view.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

08/24/2008 02:08:35 PM · #231

Originally posted by dponlyme:

we as Christians say we 'choose' to serve God under the threat of eternal damnation. Shannon is saying that it's not much of a choice its coercion. I think that is twisting things.

Free will is doing the right thing because you should, not because you think you'll go to Hell if you don't. That's just trying to save your own skin. Thinking of it otherwise is twisting things.

Originally posted by dponlyme:

God does not promise everyone a comfortable and easy life with no heartache. He does say that he will provide for your needs if you seek His Kingdom.

...as long as those needs don't include surviving a murderer, disease or approaching tornado (per Jeb's point).

BeeCee

Nikon D40

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

08/24/2008 02:14:24 PM · #232

I'm sorry that I didn't realise how arguments over free will and servitude would contribute to my knowledge base in researching the original topic. I stand corrected.
Contiue as you were.

But to others, I'd still be interested in any discussion on if it could be theoretically possible for this to be a natural phenomenon, why or why not, and how.

Spork99

Canon EOS M6 Mk II

Canon EF-M 22mm STM Lens

08/24/2008 02:16:18 PM · #233

I saw that movie, the kid was pretty good, but I think Bruce Willis' performance was a bit over rated.

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

08/24/2008 02:22:23 PM · #234

Originally posted by love32907:

(and if anyone is interested in hearing about people before Jesus or an atempt to explain why bad things happen to people serving God, let me know and I will start a new thread.)

Please do; I guarantee there will be much interest.

Edit: You better start it in Rant, because I also guarantee it will find its way there anyway.

Message edited by author 2008-08-24 14:23:03.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

08/24/2008 02:24:22 PM · #235

Originally posted by BeeCee:

I'd still be interested in any discussion on if it could be theoretically possible for this to be a natural phenomenon, why or why not, and how.

Not possible. In order to sense an event, it would have to be in progress. If it hasn't happened yet, then there's nothing to sense. We can get a "feeling" that something will happen, but that's a product of imagination and chance� sometimes it happens and it's memorable, but usually it doesn't and we forget about it.

Spork99

Canon EOS M6 Mk II

Canon EF-M 22mm STM Lens

08/24/2008 02:25:29 PM · #236

What card am I holding up?

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

08/24/2008 02:26:19 PM · #237

That one.

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

08/24/2008 02:32:59 PM · #238

Okay.....I have another question.

All of my experiences with what I'd call a sixth sense were/are completely unpredictable and/or beyond my control.

What I've heard here bandied about seems to have a lot of context as though it can be controlled and/or predicted.

Isn't there quite a difference?

I know that a lot of the experiences related, like the weird feelings at specific times that were later revealed to be at the exact time that something or somewhere turned out to be happening don't seem to be anything more than an odd sensation......that would make the absolutely impossible to be replicatedf for the likes of Randi, et al.

Yeah, Spaz, that one!......8>)

BeeCee

Nikon D40

08/24/2008 02:41:47 PM · #239

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by BeeCee:
I'd still be interested in any discussion on if it could be theoretically possible for this to be a natural phenomenon, why or why not, and how.

Not possible. In order to sense an event, it would have to be in progress. If it hasn't happened yet, then there's nothing to sense. We can get a "feeling" that something will happen, but that's a product of imagination and chance� sometimes it happens and it's memorable, but usually it doesn't and we forget about it.

I agree on precognition. For it to exist predetermination would also be necessary. What about telepathy?

Spork99

Canon EOS M6 Mk II

Canon EF-M 22mm STM Lens

08/24/2008 02:41:58 PM · #240

Originally posted by Louis:

That one.

No, it's this one. Try again young Padawan.

Message edited by author 2008-08-24 14:42:45.

shutterpuppy

Sony Alpha a7

Canon FD 70-210mm �4.0 MF

08/24/2008 07:23:25 PM · #241

Originally posted by BeeCee:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by BeeCee:
I'd still be interested in any discussion on if it could be theoretically possible for this to be a natural phenomenon, why or why not, and how.

Not possible. In order to sense an event, it would have to be in progress. If it hasn't happened yet, then there's nothing to sense. We can get a "feeling" that something will happen, but that's a product of imagination and chance� sometimes it happens and it's memorable, but usually it doesn't and we forget about it.

I agree on precognition. For it to exist predetermination would also be necessary. What about telepathy?

There are various mechanisms that have been theorized by which some form of telepathy might be possible. Note, that if this occurs through a natural phenomenon, then it should be verifiable and testable. (Actually, even if supernatural, the effects should still be subject to verification and testing.) Anyway, there has actually been a lot of legitimate research done on the topic. The results? Under controlled conditions, no evidence of any effect that would not be expected just on the basis of random chance. As cool as telepathy would be, it just isn't there.

Sam94720

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

08/24/2008 07:46:49 PM · #242

A sixth sense would be very interesting if it had predictive power. You see flashes while playing bingo and you immediately know that this can only mean that your daughter is sick. You rush to take care of her. If someone had reliable predictive abilities like that, it would be very interesting to study.

However, what usually happens is something quite different. Someone sees bright flahes and they don't think much about it. Later they find out their daughter is sick and they then attribute this to the flashes. Had they found out that their dog had been run over, they would have attributed this to the flashes. And if their neighbor had an accident, they might think that the flashes were a sign of that. This is always done with hindsight. And if they didn't see flahes, maybe they find something else that was a bit odd and then interpret this as a sign. (And often nothing spectacular happens and the experience is forgotten.)

This then leads to people saying things like

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

All of my experiences with what I'd call a sixth sense were/are completely unpredictable and/or beyond my control.

Exactly. Maybe because they were just random coincidences? Or phenomena whose cause you don't know, but that are completely natural?

And about telepathy: This one is really easy to test and demonstrate. It hasn't happened.

JuliBoc

Apple iPhone 6s+

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08/24/2008 07:48:06 PM · #243

I've come upon this thread rather late, and have not read all the way through it. But in response to the first post, my daughter had an uncanny way of knowing what was on my mind. I remember one specific incident when she was in kindergarten.

She often got over excited when we had plans to do something, so I often didn't tell her until it was nearly time for the event. One day I had made up my mind to take her to a movie, but hadn't said anything about it. When I picked her up from school it was on my mind, and when she got into the car she shrieked, "Oh boy, are we going to the movies?!".

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

08/24/2008 08:55:06 PM · #244

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
we as Christians say we 'choose' to serve God under the threat of eternal damnation. Shannon is saying that it's not much of a choice its coercion. I think that is twisting things.

Free will is doing the right thing because you should, not because you think you'll go to Hell if you don't. That's just trying to save your own skin. Thinking of it otherwise is twisting things.

Originally posted by dponlyme:
God does not promise everyone a comfortable and easy life with no heartache. He does say that he will provide for your needs if you seek His Kingdom.

...as long as those needs don't include surviving a murderer, disease or approaching tornado (per Jeb's point).

See that is the point. I don't do the right things because I will go to heaven for having done them. I will go to heaven anyway. The blood of Jesus covers my sins. I do the right thing because it pleases God that I do these things and because I love him. You seem to be under the impression that Christians can earn their way into heaven but that is definitely not the case. I don't have to worry about saving my own skin (soul) because I am incapable of being good enough to deserve to go to heaven no matter how many good things I do. That's where I feel you are twisting things or perhaps just don't understand. I do not feel any coercion to do what is right under threat of hell. In fact being the imperfect human that I am I do and think the wrong thing quite a bit more than I would care to admit but I am doing the best that I can. I thank God that he sent his only begotten son to die as a sacrifice for my sins so that I could have eternal life. It's a gift to the believer. It can't be earned.

As for the second part... death is not so final to God. He knows that death is not the end of life just the end of your body.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

08/24/2008 09:53:17 PM · #245

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I will go to heaven anyway. The blood of Jesus covers my sins.

How nice for you that you happened to draw the "Get out of hell free" card. You know those come in different denominations, each available to a minority of people and not interchangeable.

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I am incapable of being good enough to deserve to go to heaven no matter how many good things I do.

Sounds like a manufacturer's defect. Anything "made" should perform as it's supposed to, and if it's supposed to be flawed, then it shouldn't be punished for functioning as designed. I smell a lawsuit.

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I do not feel any coercion to do what is right under threat of hell.

Is it not right to believe? Anything you must do to be saved and avoid a threat of pain and suffering is coercion, and absent belief in what the Bible says you haven't got the faintest clue what pleases God outside of your own imagination.

Originally posted by dponlyme:

death is not so final to God. He knows that death is not the end of life just the end of your body.

It's pretty darn final to the body (and all five or six senses). No brain, no pain... or sight, hearing, taste, smell, etc., which is sort of where this thread started. Some people think dolphins might be able to communicate by projecting sonar signals to other dolphins- effectively drawing pictures directly in their minds. If true, that would be indistinguishable from telepathy, however it wouldn't be a new sense- only a novel means of communication with existing senses.

08/24/2008 10:21:01 PM · #246

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

All of my experiences with what I'd call a sixth sense were/are completely unpredictable and/or beyond my control.

Originally posted by Sam94720:

But then it wouldn't be a sixth sense, it would be precognition, and as Shannon stated, then that would suggest predetermination.

And you very much took what I said out of context.

You kinda ran roughshod over the whole point I made in my post which was that due to its inability to be predicted, it's always imminently dismissable by Monday morning quarterbacking. Remember this part?

I just thought of another thing......I frequently meet people, and this is predominantly with women, who after a few minutes will tell me things about themselves, experiences or feelings, and either stop partway through, or at the end and say, "Wow, I've never told that to another living soul, ever!".

Okay, I'm easy to talk to, but HOW does someone I've just met get the feeling that they can tell me anything and I won't hurt them or use that against them later? How can they tell that I'm different in such a manner that they know I understand differently than most people?

Isn't that feeling kind of a reverse sixth sense, but there all the same?

And another......I was just on vacation, got a book that when I got back to where I was staying, I realized I'd already read it. I went to the bookstore, was looking for something to replace it, and one of the new releases that I saw just had this unmistakable draw.....nothing I'd heard of, and an author I'd never read, so while I semi-consciously wondered about its apparent draw, I didn't think anything about it 'til three days later when my daughter came home with the book.....and I found out that it was the brand new fourth book just released of a series that she was awaiting.

She had NEVER mentioned the books or the author to me because she just assumed that I'd have no interest in the genre.

Must be a coincidence.....

See, if I tell Randi that this and such plane is going to crash, where and when, and it does, I'm a million richer, and a scary and amazing guy but just knowing that I had to buy that book, which also as it turned out was the first day it was released, is just dumb luck, right?

I'm sure you have an explanation, but you can just save it, 'cause it's not important.....point is with a sixth sense, pretty much by its definition and the way it works it's going to be impossible to prove.

I guess it's just one of those things where you believe it, have experience with it, or you don't.

Put yourself in my place......wouldn't you believe it given the experiences?

Moot and hypothetical, though.

I'd also be willing to bet the farm that anyone's who experienced this kind of thing doesn't really much care if someone else says it's impossible.....they just know.

Oh, the telepaty thing, you're assuming that someone who may be telepathic could demonstrate that quality at will.....pretty bold for you to establish rules, especially when you don't believe it exists in the first place. Why wouldn't it be reasonable to think that like a sixth sense, it's something that occurs at random and without the ability to control it, either?

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

08/24/2008 11:26:54 PM · #247

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
I will go to heaven anyway. The blood of Jesus covers my sins.

How nice for you that you happened to draw the "Get out of hell free" card. You know those come in different denominations, each available to a minority of people and not interchangeable.

Originally posted by dponlyme:
I am incapable of being good enough to deserve to go to heaven no matter how many good things I do.

Sounds like a manufacturer's defect. Anything "made" should perform as it's supposed to, and if it's supposed to be flawed, then it shouldn't be punished for functioning as designed. I smell a lawsuit.

Originally posted by dponlyme:
I do not feel any coercion to do what is right under threat of hell.

Is it not right to believe? Anything you must do to be saved and avoid a threat of pain and suffering is coercion, and absent belief in what the Bible says you haven't got the faintest clue what pleases God outside of your own imagination.

Originally posted by dponlyme:
death is not so final to God. He knows that death is not the end of life just the end of your body.

It's pretty darn final to the body (and all five or six senses). No brain, no pain... or sight, hearing, taste, smell, etc., which is sort of where this thread started. Some people think dolphins might be able to communicate by projecting sonar signals to other dolphins- effectively drawing pictures directly in their minds. If true, that would be indistinguishable from telepathy, however it wouldn't be a new sense- only a novel means of communication with existing senses.

Shannon I know that you don't believe and as such you feel that I who do believe am damning you to hell. I don't make those decisions however. I take advantage of the fact that Jesus died for my sins. You can do the same if you choose. I don't have a monopoly on being saved. It is not my intention to point out your unsaved condition or to argue about whether or not I am special or any such nonsense but simply to point out that I do not operate under a condition of coercion. As for operating as I was designed to: I do. I was designed to have free will and I exercise it every time I sin and every time I do the right thing. I was not designed to be an automaton. My body was also not designed to live forever and yes when the body dies it is pretty darn final for the body...

Louis

Nikon D800

08/24/2008 11:29:28 PM · #248

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I do the right thing because it pleases God that I do these things and because I love him.

This is still an immoral position. You should do the right thing because it is the right thing. You should do the right thing because other human beings benefit from it. You should do the right thing because you love your fellows.

It is incontrovertibly immoral and unethical to do the right thing for any other reasons.

crayon

Panasonic Lumix DMC-FH1

08/24/2008 11:39:28 PM · #249

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Before we get too far off topic: Sam94720, would you mind coming back to this?

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by crayon:
i think most (or even all) religions would not exist today if they had been subjected to Mr Randi's tests. Samuel94720, do you believe in your god?

Which god are you referring to?

yours

You cannot compare belief in God and belief in UFOs or telepathy!

why not? both cannot seem to pass Mr Randi's test.
I would be most interested to hear your opinion.