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08/22/2008 11:32:10 AM · #151
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

and I know there's a God, if for no other reason, the beauty and wonder of my daughter.


So people with ugly children shouldn't believe in god(s)?
08/22/2008 11:47:59 AM · #152
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

People don't like to accept that there are things that are inexplicable......it scares them when things outside their control happen.......lotta motivation to conjure up a reason and a theory and cling to it tenaciously.


See, I agree with you on this statement, but I think this goes against paranormal belief. I've made this point before, but let's make it again -

Science is accused on the one hand of "claiming to know all the answers," and on the other hand of "denying anything that it can't explain." Setting aside the contradiction, this is a mischaracterization of the way science -- and by extension scientific thinking, that is, skeptical, evidence-based thinking -- works.

Science does not claim to "know." Science is about asking the questions "why?" and "how?". Science is actually quite comfortable with "no current explanation." That is where science starts - you find a phenomenon that you aren't sure how or why it occurs (or perhaps even if it occurs) and then you investigate, gather evidence, and see if you can come to any conclusions. If you do develop a theory, others will test it and see if its correct. Perhaps they will come up with their own competing theory which is better (meaning, better fits the available evidence). If your theory holds water it will stand, but won't ever remain completely unquestioned - any new contradictory evidence that comes along may result in your theory being superseded or replaced. This is how careers are made in science. There is no dogma, there are no sacred theories.

On the other hand finding a phenomenon that there is no current explanation for is the end for nonscientific thinking. "Look at x that we can't explain. Since we can't explain it, it must be [a miracle/a ghost/aliens/supernatural/etc.]. And that's it. Nonscientific thinking is satisfied with staying there - ignorant and uninformed, but deluding itself into thinking it knows what's going on, and willfully ignoring any evidence that contradicts it's own explantion.

You claim to be sad for anyone who hasn't experienced what you would call a "miracle." Well, I feel sad for people who are willing to accept pat answers to complex questions, which is what inserting "and then a miracle happened" into the conversation is all about. Make no mistake - chalking something up to a miracle is an attempt to "conjure up a reason and a theory." An approach you claim to abhor. It's an attempt to bring the universe under your control and make it understable. It's just not a very rational approach and it doesn't do anything to advance the actual stable of human knowledge. It doesn't make the world grand, it makes it superficial and petty.
08/22/2008 12:05:52 PM · #153
Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by crayon:

i think most (or even all) religions would not exist today if they had been subjected to Mr Randi's tests. Samuel94720, do you believe in your god?

Which god are you referring to?

yours

You cannot compare belief in God and belief in UFOs or telepathy!


why not? both cannot seem to pass Mr Randi's test.
I would be most interested to hear your opinion.

Message edited by author 2008-08-22 12:15:54.
08/22/2008 12:32:47 PM · #154
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I have experienced happenstances that I can directly attribute to a sixth sense, I've seen a UFO (At the same time as a group of other people in broad daylight.), and I know there's a God, if for no other reason, the beauty and wonder of my daughter.

Originally posted by Sam94720:

We have two facts here: You saw a flying object you could not identify and you consider your daughter beautiful and wonderful. Ok, all good so far.

No, we have two STATEMENTS....relative to my experience.
Originally posted by Sam94720:

In the first case, you conclude that paranormal forces are at work.

No, I merely stated that I saw a UFO. This was based on some reasonable experience with what conventional aircraft look like and the fact that I, along with a few other people saw an aircraft that didn't fit known parameters.

Since it was the middle of the day, clear, and the object was close enough to ascertain that it appeared to be metallic and without wings, and made no noise, I don't know what it was.

That made it an Unidentified Flying Object.
Originally posted by Sam94720:

But then we come to the next step where you look for an explanation of these facts.

This step makes no sense at all, sorry. What leads you to believe that anything supernatural is at work?

In the second case, you conclude that God exists. This step makes no sense at all, sorry again. (And even if, how do you choose the god responsible?)

That one was actually a little tongue-in-cheek.....if we would have gotten the kid we deserve, she would have had horns & fangs.

There are qualities that she has in her personality that pretty much defy any reasonable assumptions based on family history.

But then, my assumptions probably won't fly with you.
Originally posted by Sam94720:

And then:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

No, I'm saying *NONE* of it's irrational.....that's my point, you put your spin on it and say it's irrational.

Debunk away, but you'll never change my mind with your "Rational" attempts at explanation.

Originally posted by Sam94720:

So rational thinking won't work for you, but at the same time you claim that your thinking is not irrational. So it must be something in between. Please elaborate.

You also say that nothing will ever change your mind. So I have to conclude that your belief in paranormal phenomena is of a religious nature and independent of reality.

I never stated that rational thought doesn't work for me, I just don't buy your version of it.

You don't find my thinking rational, fine, but again, that doesn't make it so.

I did not say nothing would change my mind; it's certainly unlikely that YOU will.

"I reject your version of reality and substitute mine."

Draw whatever conclusion you want; you choose to make those conclusions with little or no information about me.

Oh, my religion is not necessarily exclusive of rationale, nor are all my conclusions based in religion.
08/22/2008 12:36:24 PM · #155
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

and I know there's a God, if for no other reason, the beauty and wonder of my daughter.


Originally posted by Trinch:

So people with ugly children shouldn't believe in god(s)?

This is what I love about these forums.....people just naturally go for the throat and assume the worst.

I didn't say or imply anything of the kind, and if that's the way you want to interpret it, too bad about your miserable existence.

I consider *MY* daughter, and that she's a wondrous part of my life, a gift from God.

Screw you if you want to take a beautiful concept and twist it around to something patently mean.
08/22/2008 12:45:28 PM · #156
I thought the humor was obvious enough to not have to put a ;) at the end. Guess I was wrong. Wasn't trying to be mean.

If I wanted to be mean, I would have said something to the lines of, 'I've met your daughter and your theory doesn't hold water.' (And no, I have never met your daughter, I am not, in ANY way, being serious here, and absolutely not saying this personally, just hypothetically.)

;-)

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

and I know there's a God, if for no other reason, the beauty and wonder of my daughter.


Originally posted by Trinch:

So people with ugly children shouldn't believe in god(s)?

This is what I love about these forums.....people just naturally go for the throat and assume the worst.

I didn't say or imply anything of the kind, and if that's the way you want to interpret it, too bad about your miserable existence.

I consider *MY* daughter, and that she's a wondrous part of my life, a gift from God.

Screw you if you want to take a beautiful concept and twist it around to something patently mean.
08/22/2008 01:01:41 PM · #157
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

People don't like to accept that there are things that are inexplicable......it scares them when things outside their control happen.......lotta motivation to conjure up a reason and a theory and cling to it tenaciously.


Originally posted by shutterpuppy:

See, I agree with you on this statement, but I think this goes against paranormal belief. I've made this point before, but let's make it again -

Science is accused on the one hand of "claiming to know all the answers," and on the other hand of "denying anything that it can't explain." Setting aside the contradiction, this is a mischaracterization of the way science -- and by extension scientific thinking, that is, skeptical, evidence-based thinking -- works.

Science does not claim to "know." Science is about asking the questions "why?" and "how?". Science is actually quite comfortable with "no current explanation." That is where science starts - you find a phenomenon that you aren't sure how or why it occurs (or perhaps even if it occurs) and then you investigate, gather evidence, and see if you can come to any conclusions. If you do develop a theory, others will test it and see if its correct. Perhaps they will come up with their own competing theory which is better (meaning, better fits the available evidence). If your theory holds water it will stand, but won't ever remain completely unquestioned - any new contradictory evidence that comes along may result in your theory being superseded or replaced. This is how careers are made in science. There is no dogma, there are no sacred theories.

On the other hand finding a phenomenon that there is no current explanation for is the end for nonscientific thinking. "Look at x that we can't explain. Since we can't explain it, it must be [a miracle/a ghost/aliens/supernatural/etc.]. And that's it. Nonscientific thinking is satisfied with staying there - ignorant and uninformed, but deluding itself into thinking it knows what's going on, and willfully ignoring any evidence that contradicts it's own explantion.

You claim to be sad for anyone who hasn't experienced what you would call a "miracle." Well, I feel sad for people who are willing to accept pat answers to complex questions, which is what inserting "and then a miracle happened" into the conversation is all about. Make no mistake - chalking something up to a miracle is an attempt to "conjure up a reason and a theory." An approach you claim to abhor. It's an attempt to bring the universe under your control and make it understable. It's just not a very rational approach and it doesn't do anything to advance the actual stable of human knowledge. It doesn't make the world grand, it makes it superficial and petty.

But I don't claim to be at the extreme end, or firmly in the camp of either point of view.

I neither blindly say that anything I can't understand is a miracle, nor am I willing to spend years trying to disprove what I think is a miracle.

There are a lot of variables and thought that go into my conclusions.....I like to think I'm reasonable intelligent and inquisitive.

I like to think I can establish a reasonable balance in my conclusions, without beating the possibilities to death.
08/22/2008 01:05:11 PM · #158
Originally posted by Trinch:

I thought the humor was obvious enough to not have to put a ;) at the end. Guess I was wrong. Wasn't trying to be mean.

If I wanted to be mean, I would have said something to the lines of, 'I've met your daughter and your theory doesn't hold water.' (And no, I have never met your daughter, I am not, in ANY way, being serious here, and absolutely not saying this personally, just hypothetically.)

;-)

My apologies......it would have helped me to have the smiley face.

I just don't think like that and I get frustrated when people go there.

I realize it's a shortcoming in my personality to have no sense of humor with people who enjoy trying to argue minutae and every possible twist of meaning....not necessarily meaning to put you there.....

I probably shouldn't get involved in these discussions.

Message edited by author 2008-08-22 13:05:26.
08/22/2008 01:11:51 PM · #159
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

No, I merely stated that I saw a UFO. This was based on some reasonable experience with what conventional aircraft look like and the fact that I, along with a few other people saw an aircraft that didn't fit known parameters.

Since it was the middle of the day, clear, and the object was close enough to ascertain that it appeared to be metallic and without wings, and made no noise, I don't know what it was.

That made it an Unidentified Flying Object.

So you merely saw a flying object you couldn't identify? What's the big deal? And why are you telling us about this in this thread if it has nothing to do with the paranormal or a "sixth sense"? (That's the topic we are discussing, see title above.)

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I never stated that rational thought doesn't work for me, I just don't buy your version of it.

Hmm, are there several versions of rational thought? Please explain. What is my version? What is yours?

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I did not say nothing would change my mind; it's certainly unlikely that YOU will.

Sure. I would become an instant believer if I were simply shown something supernatural. For example in a test like Randi does them. Unfortunately, nothing paranormal ever worked under proper observing conditions. Randi would not even need an explanation, just a visible effect. Many of the paranormal skills people claim to have are extremely easy to demonstrate (telepathy for example). It doesn't happen. Makes one wonder.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Draw whatever conclusion you want; you choose to make those conclusions with little or no information about me.

Why always so personal? I think this discussion does not require us to know each other's life stories. You also have to understand that "If you had the experiences I have had, you'd share my opinion." doesn't work because I have no access to your experiences. So in a rational discussion you have to bring up information that is accessible to all of us.

I hope you agree that paranormal phenomena either exist or they don't. Some people claim they do, others claim they don't. Both cannot be right.

P.S.: My 90-year old grandma says you still have a lot of growing up to do. (I hope you realize that the "I'm older than you, therefore I'm right." argument also doesn't work.)
08/22/2008 01:17:14 PM · #160
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

People don't like to accept that there are things that are inexplicable......it scares them when things outside their control happen.......lotta motivation to conjure up a reason and a theory and cling to it tenaciously.

See, I agree with you on this statement, but I think this goes against paranormal belief. I've made this point before, but let's make it again -

Science is accused on the one hand of "claiming to know all the answers," and on the other hand of "denying anything that it can't explain." Setting aside the contradiction, this is a mischaracterization of the way science -- and by extension scientific thinking, that is, skeptical, evidence-based thinking -- works.

Science does not claim to "know." Science is about asking the questions "why?" and "how?". Science is actually quite comfortable with "no current explanation." That is where science starts - you find a phenomenon that you aren't sure how or why it occurs (or perhaps even if it occurs) and then you investigate, gather evidence, and see if you can come to any conclusions. If you do develop a theory, others will test it and see if its correct. Perhaps they will come up with their own competing theory which is better (meaning, better fits the available evidence). If your theory holds water it will stand, but won't ever remain completely unquestioned - any new contradictory evidence that comes along may result in your theory being superseded or replaced. This is how careers are made in science. There is no dogma, there are no sacred theories.

On the other hand finding a phenomenon that there is no current explanation for is the end for nonscientific thinking. "Look at x that we can't explain. Since we can't explain it, it must be [a miracle/a ghost/aliens/supernatural/etc.]. And that's it. Nonscientific thinking is satisfied with staying there - ignorant and uninformed, but deluding itself into thinking it knows what's going on, and willfully ignoring any evidence that contradicts it's own explantion.

You claim to be sad for anyone who hasn't experienced what you would call a "miracle." Well, I feel sad for people who are willing to accept pat answers to complex questions, which is what inserting "and then a miracle happened" into the conversation is all about. Make no mistake - chalking something up to a miracle is an attempt to "conjure up a reason and a theory." An approach you claim to abhor. It's an attempt to bring the universe under your control and make it understable. It's just not a very rational approach and it doesn't do anything to advance the actual stable of human knowledge. It doesn't make the world grand, it makes it superficial and petty.

Very well said. NikonJeb (and other science skeptics), you should also be aware of the fact that you happily use the results of science every day (when taking pictures, for example, and uploading them to the Internet) and regularly put your life in science's hands (When boarding a plane, for example. Or driving your car. Or when taking medication.). So in some areas you have complete trust in science, while in others you dismiss it. This makes no sense, it's always the exact same process.
08/22/2008 01:24:07 PM · #161
Originally posted by Sam94720:

P.S.: My 90-year old grandma says you still have a lot of growing up to do. (I hope you realize that the "I'm older than you, therefore I'm right." argument also doesn't work.)

No sh*t!

*I* am FULLY cognizant of that.

However, I also have been here long enough that I do actuallly take into account that I do have some experience.....and twice as much as you.....maybe not in all areas, but I'd be willing to bet in most.

I also *NEVER* stated that BECAUSE I've been around longer that I'm right; what I did state is that I've pretty much outgrown the idea that my young, sharp mind is that much sharper, smarter, and faster than the old farts......but I never was really like that, I've always been open to the voice of experience.

I really have no interest in justifying myself to you, you're just going to continue to argue obtuse points, and then break MY stones for going off track, and then dismiss what I have to say, so why do you bother?

Here's a thought for you.....why not CONSIDER what I've related in the way of experiences......is it POSSIBLE that I have seen a UFO, something that may indicate inteligent life other than ours?

Is it possible that we have a smart, beautiful daughter past the indicators of the genetics of our family, that might be Grace?

Is it possible that I have had occurrences of knowing things without a reasonable explanation as to why?

See, I don't think you can definitively say no......any more than I can.

But you sure seem to be positive that it cannot be.

Considering I have been there, and you haven't, how can you reconcile that?
08/22/2008 01:27:21 PM · #162
Originally posted by Sam94720:

I hope you agree that paranormal phenomena either exist or they don't. Some people claim they do, others claim they don't. Both cannot be right.


Just to jump in on the argument again - the fact that a number of experienced phenomena can not be shown to exist with the perception and/or instruments of detection that we have available to us (often by proxy in the case of instruments), does not fully refute claims for their existence. It does demonstrate that their existence is not ascertainable, or provable by the same criteria. This means that neither those who say that such phenomena are real, nor those who say that they are not real, are absolutely right. Thus, in absolute terms, one cannot claim that they exist or that they do not exist. Ergo, in absolute terms they neither exist nor do not exist. QED both are in fact (or in fact as stated in absolute terms) wrong.

Message edited by author 2008-08-22 13:28:51.
08/22/2008 01:34:13 PM · #163
Originally posted by Sam94720:

So in some areas you have complete trust in science, while in others you dismiss it. This makes no sense, it's always the exact same process.

Nope. Never.

It's not only NOT the same process, I never wholeheartedly disnmiss it.

You seem to be stuck in this attitude of extremes, yes or no, it is or it isn't.

There are degrees, grey areas, inconclusive findings.

I don't have to either categorize something or dismiss it.

i may have an interim conclusion, but be open to other possibilities.

I am an extremely mechanically inclined person with an inquisitive nature......I worked on cars primarily, but I'm just one of those people with a knack for figuring out how things operate, and being able to figure out what something is, or is not doing, and fix it.

I generally think, and do diagnostics in a fairly linear manner, and through the process I have to reserve judgement 'til I have enough information to draw a conclusion.

Which means that for many years, I have had to learn how to work within ever-changing parameters, and to make adjustments along the way.

I've been forced, by the nature of what I do, to never slam the door on the possibility that soemthing weird can emerge.......every time you think you've seen it all, along comes another issue.

Very little in life, from my experiences, seems to be finite.
08/22/2008 01:38:07 PM · #164
Originally posted by Sam94720:

I hope you agree that paranormal phenomena either exist or they don't. Some people claim they do, others claim they don't. Both cannot be right.

Sure they can.

Some people have firsthand knowledge and experience of the sixth sense, prescience, ESP, whatever.....others don't.

I'm curious, as much as you argued darn near everything I've mentioned, you kinda left my ball lightning sighting alone.

Why?
08/22/2008 01:41:18 PM · #165
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I realize it's a shortcoming in my personality to have no sense of humor with people who enjoy trying to argue minutae and every possible twist of meaning...

Subtract 1 from the list of Jeb's senses... ;-)
08/22/2008 01:58:17 PM · #166
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I realize it's a shortcoming in my personality to have no sense of humor with people who enjoy trying to argue minutae and every possible twist of meaning...

Subtract 1 from the list of Jeb's senses... ;-)

Speaking of vestigial, I think common sense has largely disappeared from the human race ... perhaps that's why we're left with only five ... and are at risk of engineering our own extinction. Talk about your bad mutations ... :-(
08/22/2008 01:58:35 PM · #167
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Sam94720:

P.S.: My 90-year old grandma says you still have a lot of growing up to do. (I hope you realize that the "I'm older than you, therefore I'm right." argument also doesn't work.)

No sh*t!

*I* am FULLY cognizant of that.

However, I also have been here long enough that I do actuallly take into account that I do have some experience.....and twice as much as you.....maybe not in all areas, but I'd be willing to bet in most.

I also *NEVER* stated that BECAUSE I've been around longer that I'm right; what I did state is that I've pretty much outgrown the idea that my young, sharp mind is that much sharper, smarter, and faster than the old farts......but I never was really like that, I've always been open to the voice of experience.

I really have no interest in justifying myself to you, you're just going to continue to argue obtuse points, and then break MY stones for going off track, and then dismiss what I have to say, so why do you bother?

Here's a thought for you.....why not CONSIDER what I've related in the way of experiences......is it POSSIBLE that I have seen a UFO, something that may indicate inteligent life other than ours?

Is it possible that we have a smart, beautiful daughter past the indicators of the genetics of our family, that might be Grace?

Is it possible that I have had occurrences of knowing things without a reasonable explanation as to why?

See, I don't think you can definitively say no......any more than I can.

But you sure seem to be positive that it cannot be.

Considering I have been there, and you haven't, how can you reconcile that?

Did you read my previous post?
Originally posted by Sam94720:

Why always so personal? I think this discussion does not require us to know each other's life stories. You also have to understand that "If you had the experiences I have had, you'd share my opinion." doesn't work because I have no access to your experiences. So in a rational discussion you have to bring up information that is accessible to all of us.


So you saw a flying object you could not identify. There's a multitude of possible explanations. It might have been extraterrestrials. Or a weather balloon. Or a military aircraft. Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Or a flying teapot. Or a transmissible disease that made you hallucinate. Or a message from the other side. etc. etc.

I don't know what it was. Maybe one day we'll find out. Until then I can live with the uncertainty.

You, on the other hand, seem to prefer one explanation over all the others. Why?

About your ball lightning: Ehm, yes, you saw some ball lightning. The three paragraphs above apply.

P.S.: My hamster died ten minutes ago. I think you cursed it. You can certainly not dismiss the possibility! I have been there.
08/22/2008 01:59:10 PM · #168
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Some people have firsthand knowledge and experience of the sixth sense, prescience, ESP, whatever.....others don't.

See Shutterpuppy's earlier post. Experiencing something unusual or unexplained is one thing, but attributing it to the supernatural is where you stray into the muddy waters of pure speculation and opinion. Nobody can argue with what you believe to have seen or experienced, but the explanation for it is fair game.

Ball lightning is a rare, unexplained phenomenon that may very well occur under a given set of conditions (the link you posted offered several experimental attempts, photos, etc., but again the likelihood of of ball lightning existing is not equal to the likelihood of say, mermaids existing, no matter how many sailors claim to have seen one with their own eyes.
08/22/2008 02:02:47 PM · #169
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Some people have firsthand knowledge and experience of the sixth sense, prescience, ESP, whatever.....others don't.

I used to do some magic and mind reading. I had people run from me screaming in fear because they thought I had supernatural powers. I was able to convince many that I could read their thoughts. I can't. All very simple tricks.

Most of these experiences can be explained by coincidence, confirmation bias and trickery. And if there were any "real" paranormal phenomena, they could be easily demonstrated and the issue would be settled. Why doesn't this happen?
08/22/2008 02:04:21 PM · #170
Originally posted by raish:

Originally posted by Sam94720:

I hope you agree that paranormal phenomena either exist or they don't. Some people claim they do, others claim they don't. Both cannot be right.


Just to jump in on the argument again - the fact that a number of experienced phenomena can not be shown to exist with the perception and/or instruments of detection that we have available to us (often by proxy in the case of instruments), does not fully refute claims for their existence. It does demonstrate that their existence is not ascertainable, or provable by the same criteria. This means that neither those who say that such phenomena are real, nor those who say that they are not real, are absolutely right. Thus, in absolute terms, one cannot claim that they exist or that they do not exist. Ergo, in absolute terms they neither exist nor do not exist. QED both are in fact (or in fact as stated in absolute terms) wrong.

They either exists or they don't. That's just a fact of reality.

Whether we will ever be able to attribute causes to all phenomena we observe is a different question.
08/22/2008 02:04:39 PM · #171
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Here's a thought for you.....why not CONSIDER what I've related in the way of experiences......is it POSSIBLE that I have seen a UFO, something that may indicate inteligent life other than ours?


Yes, entirely possible - but also highly improbable. I don't have a problem with believing that you saw something "unidentified" which you currently don't have an explanation for - the next leap (and its a big one), that it is extraterrestrial or otherwise an indicator of "intelligent life other than ours" isn't justified by any evidence, only by late night tv and pop sci-fi. In this instance we actually have a large body of research and evidence pointing away from non-terrestrial based explanation for such phenomenon, and no credible evidence pointing the other way. While counter evidence may yet come to light, the probability of that happening is extremely low.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Is it possible that we have a smart, beautiful daughter past the indicators of the genetics of our family, that might be Grace?


No. This is one I'm not willing to credit at all. What ever the wonderfulness of your daughter - and hey, I've seen the pictures she certainly did luck out not to have taken after her dad ;) - they are the result of the combined genetic and parenting contributions of her parents. (It's also something that would be easily and empirically verifiable.)

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Is it possible that I have had occurrences of knowing things without a reasonable explanation as to why?


Absolutely. Count this as an area where scientists (and myself) were extremely skeptical - intuition - and it turns out is actually a real and verifiable phenomenon - if thoroughly natural. In the Blink of an Eye Of course, who worked out that it was real? Scientists. And they are now working on figuring out the exact mechanisms by which it works. They didn't just accept, they applied scientific thinking, experimentation, and observation. They asked "how" and "why."

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Considering I have been there, and you haven't, how can you reconcile that?


Our senses are fallible, and our genetic makeup makes us acutely prone to certain logical fallacies - for example, we are pattern seeking animals, and will find patterns even where none exist. This is why credible scientists go to great lengths to separate and isolate their evidence gathering from misperception and bias. Not because they discount human perception and experience as evidence, but because they are aware of its weakness as an empirical tool.

Message edited by author 2008-08-22 14:07:27.
08/22/2008 02:13:11 PM · #172
I have been following this thread and I thought that I would add my opinion to it as well. I am a christian first of all. There have been many times where I felt like I should do something or go somewhere out of the ordinary. For no reason at all one time, on my way to work I felt like I should go a way that I didn't ever go... so I did. Later that day I found out that there was an accident on the route that I usually take, and I would have been there at the precise moment of the accedent had I not went the other way.

For me, I believe that the Holy Spirit guided me in the path that I should have taken. He saved me from getting in that accident. The Bible is clear on what the Holy Ghost is. It says he is a comfortor and a guide. He tells us everything we need to know. So, for me at least, I believe in the Holy Spirit Guiding me instead of a 6th sense. There have been other times that He told me to do things too. Like one time when I felt like I should bring a flashlight to church. It was so out of the ordinary I almost didn't, but I really felt like I had to so I did. Later, right before church the power went out for no reason. It was not storming out or anything. My flashlight came in handy so people could go into the rooms without any light. I was so glad that I listened and gave into that feeling because I don't like being in dark places... and God knew that. He took care of me :)
08/22/2008 02:20:40 PM · #173
Originally posted by love32907:

I have been following this thread and I thought that I would add my opinion to it as well. I am a christian first of all. There have been many times where I felt like I should do something or go somewhere out of the ordinary. For no reason at all one time, on my way to work I felt like I should go a way that I didn't ever go... so I did. Later that day I found out that there was an accident on the route that I usually take, and I would have been there at the precise moment of the accedent had I not went the other way.

I've heard many such stories. If you look at them closely, you usually find out that it wasn't exactly the route you would have taken. And it was an hour later. People have a strong desire to believe in a sixth sense. Maybe makes you something special, don't know. And again, you ignore the misses and highlight the hits.

Originally posted by love32907:

For me, I believe that the Holy Spirit guided me in the path that I should have taken. He saved me from getting in that accident. The Bible is clear on what the Holy Ghost is. It says he is a comfortor and a guide. He tells us everything we need to know. So, for me at least, I believe in the Holy Spirit Guiding me instead of a 6th sense. There have been other times that He told me to do things too. Like one time when I felt like I should bring a flashlight to church. It was so out of the ordinary I almost didn't, but I really felt like I had to so I did. Later, right before church the power went out for no reason. It was not storming out or anything. My flashlight came in handy so people could go into the rooms without any light. I was so glad that I listened and gave into that feeling because I don't like being in dark places... and God knew that. He took care of me :)

Why do you think it wasn't one of these? (sorry to bring the link up again, find it a great site)
08/22/2008 02:22:00 PM · #174
Originally posted by love32907:

I have been following this thread and I thought that I would add my opinion to it as well. I am a christian first of all. There have been many times where I felt like I should do something or go somewhere out of the ordinary. For no reason at all one time, on my way to work I felt like I should go a way that I didn't ever go... so I did. Later that day I found out that there was an accident on the route that I usually take, and I would have been there at the precise moment of the accedent had I not went the other way.

For me, I believe that the Holy Spirit guided me in the path that I should have taken. He saved me from getting in that accident. The Bible is clear on what the Holy Ghost is. It says he is a comfortor and a guide. He tells us everything we need to know. So, for me at least, I believe in the Holy Spirit Guiding me instead of a 6th sense. There have been other times that He told me to do things too. Like one time when I felt like I should bring a flashlight to church. It was so out of the ordinary I almost didn't, but I really felt like I had to so I did. Later, right before church the power went out for no reason. It was not storming out or anything. My flashlight came in handy so people could go into the rooms without any light. I was so glad that I listened and gave into that feeling because I don't like being in dark places... and God knew that. He took care of me :)


Of course, maybe if he really wanted to take care of you god would have just made it so that the accident didn't happen and the lights didn't go out.

Also curious - do you think that the people who got into the accident were just bad Christians or some sort of other people undeserving of god's super-secret whisper in the ear to avoid state and main that day?
08/22/2008 02:25:29 PM · #175
Originally posted by love32907:

I have been following this thread and I thought that I would add my opinion to it as well. I am a christian first of all. There have been many times where I felt like I should do something or go somewhere out of the ordinary. For no reason at all one time, on my way to work I felt like I should go a way that I didn't ever go... so I did. Later that day I found out that there was an accident on the route that I usually take, and I would have been there at the precise moment of the accedent had I not went the other way.


Just to add a little more fuel to this fire -- this is the fallacy of the predetermined outcome. There is no reason to assume that the accident would have happened if you had taken that route. Perhaps you would have gotten in front of the driver that caused the accident, thus slowing them down and making them avoid the accident.

Message edited by author 2008-08-22 14:25:58.
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