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08/21/2008 02:31:13 AM · #51
Dear Samuel94720 - you've gotta learn to let go, and accept that, in this world, among billions of people alive, there are bound to be people having opinions which differ from yours. you just gotta accept that. stop trying so hard to prove everyone wrong just because you dont share their opinions, thoughts, or believe. sheesh... you need a woodie.
08/21/2008 03:37:29 AM · #52
Originally posted by crayon:

Dear Samuel94720 - you've gotta learn to let go, and accept that, in this world, among billions of people alive, there are bound to be people having opinions which differ from yours. you just gotta accept that. stop trying so hard to prove everyone wrong just because you dont share their opinions, thoughts, or believe. sheesh... you need a woodie.

Our opinions form and change based on our experiences (events that happen to us, articles we read, things we see on TV, discussions we have with friends, etc.). Are you arguing we should stop this process at some point? (Why? And when?)

What is the alternative to discussion? We separate into different communities with contradicting beliefs and interests. When discussion, negotiation, compromise are no longer options, this will inevitably lead to violence.

Some people seem to think that opinions are something sacred that is not to be challenged. I disagree. Your opinions inform your actions and thereby affect others. Everyone should therefore care about your opinion.

And finally: Certain things are simply not questions of opinion. For example, when I write that nobody has passed Randi's preliminary test, this is a fact and not a matter of opinion. Math is the same, it's a fact and not a matter of opinion.

Let's come back to the actual topic. If your opinion differs, please challenge mine. I'm mainly here to refine mine.
08/21/2008 03:46:02 AM · #53
Originally posted by Sam94720:

The experience of meeting friends when you are on vacation is a common one. You know many people. Many people go on vacation. And people from similar regions with similar interest, similar budget (maybe kids at the same age, etc.) often end up at similar vacation destinations (often around the same time based on the school vacation of the kids). And it's likely that they end up visiting the same places. And then run into each other.

Maybe you missed another family at the same store the same day. Or on a different trip. However, you don't know about it and therefore don't remember it. You only remember the very rare instances where you ran into someone just by coincidence. And you then start looking for further coincidences. And you are likely to find them because there are so many things you could compare.

A few years ago I traveled through New Zealand with a group (trips like this one, to be recommended: //www.hikingnewzealand.com/new-zealand-hiking-vacation.htm). Everywhere we went I ran into somebody I knew. The people in the group got the impression I knew the whole world. But it was simple coincidences (New Zealand was and is a very popular destination and you end up visiting the same places). One day we went to a very remote campground that hardly anyone even knew existed and our guide said "Just to make sure we don't run into friends of Sam." When we finally got to the place in the middle of nowhere and stepped out of the van, the two only other people already there yelled "Hey Sam!". They were two Austrians I had met on the plane a few weeks before. And they were very glad to see us because they were on a shoe-string budget and we brought beer. ;-)

But again, simply a fun coincidence with no further meaning. By the way, what is the meaning you'd attribute to you and your friend buying the same bathing suit? And who would be behind this? And for what reason?


You didn't answer my questions but it doesn't matter.

I attribute me buying the same thing as my friend to my sixth sense picking up a random brainwave of what she'd bought.

Just because something may be explained as a coincidence why does it mean that that can be the ONLY explanation? There's still a great deal that science doesn't know about the workings of the body and especially the brain. My own doctor has said to me about a certain treatment, "we don't know just why it works, but it does."

Bacteria weren't discovered until the late 1600's, but for thousands of years before that treatments were used against them -treatments developed mainly through anecdotal evidence, not scientific trials. Just because we don't currently have the means to identify the source location in the brain of a sixth sense, or can't consistantly replicate standardised results in a lab doesn't mean it can't possibly exist. It just means science hasn't progressed far enough to prove anything either way.

Personally, until they do get there, I'd rather believe in the possibility than close my mind.

Message edited by author 2008-08-21 03:47:36.
08/21/2008 04:07:41 AM · #54
Originally posted by BeeCee:

You didn't answer my questions but it doesn't matter.

You asked about the probability of the event you described. It's not possible to calculate this, sorry. However, the probability of something like this happening to you on any given day is small. But the probability of things like this happening to you over the course of a year or a lifetime is pretty high.

And something with a low probability occurring is not necessarily something special. Think about lottery numbers. The probability of any given combination of numbers being chosen is extremely low. However, each time one combination is chosen. Is this a supernatural event? No, there are many possible combinations, but each of them is equally likely. Rare events do occur, but rarely. ;-)

Originally posted by BeeCee:

Just because something may be explained as a coincidence why does it mean that that can be the ONLY explanation? There's still a great deal that science doesn't know about the workings of the body and especially the brain. My own doctor has said to me about a certain treatment, "we don't know just why it works, but it does."

Yes, this is true. There are many things we know work, but we don't know why or how exactly. However, the fact that they work can be tested and measured. We could also do this for the "brain waves" you assume exist. We could test if there really is such an effect or not. It would be very interesting to discover such a phenomenon.

There's an infinite number of things that could exist, but lack any evidence. I think it would be unreasonable to make decisions based on the possibility of an invisible dragon living in the back yard. Or a ghost running around the house. Yes, let's all be open, but wait for evidence before we let such things influence our decisions.

And remember: There are numerous people in this world who claim to have supernatural powers or skills. Each of them could easily earn a million dollars from Randi. Why do you think this hasn't happened yet?

Message edited by author 2008-08-21 04:26:45.
08/21/2008 04:57:32 AM · #55
Originally posted by Sam94720:

There are numerous people in this world who claim to have supernatural powers or skills. Each of them could easily earn a million dollars from Randi. Why do you think this hasn't happened yet?


Because nobody knows Randi?
08/21/2008 05:01:52 AM · #56
Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by Sam94720:

There are numerous people in this world who claim to have supernatural powers or skills. Each of them could easily earn a million dollars from Randi. Why do you think this hasn't happened yet?

Because nobody knows Randi?

Randi has been around for a long time and is pretty well known, especially in the paranormal and skeptic communities. If you know anyone who claims to have supernatural skills, tell them about the million dollars they can easily get.
08/21/2008 05:02:45 AM · #57
I don't think the existance of frauds and charlatans disproves the possibility of anything.

Yes, they could test if they knew exactly what they were looking for. But in that case, wouldn't they already know it existed?

They couldn't test for bacterial infection before bacteria were discovered, but that didn't mean bacteria weren't still making people sick.

New species of animals are still being discovered. That doesn't mean they didn't exist until now.

Just because science can't quantify something YET doesn't mean it isn't real. Maybe you're right, maybe I am, but there's no proof either way. Until it's disproven I'll continue to believe in the possibilties suggested to me by my own experiences.

Btw, I came across this article tonight which I found rather interesting.
08/21/2008 05:34:18 AM · #58
Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by crayon:

Dear Samuel94720 - you've gotta learn to let go, and accept that, in this world, among billions of people alive, there are bound to be people having opinions which differ from yours. you just gotta accept that. stop trying so hard to prove everyone wrong just because you dont share their opinions, thoughts, or believe. sheesh... you need a woodie.

Our opinions form and change based on our experiences (events that happen to us, articles we read, things we see on TV, discussions we have with friends, etc.). Are you arguing we should stop this process at some point? (Why? And when?)

What is the alternative to discussion? We separate into different communities with contradicting beliefs and interests. When discussion, negotiation, compromise are no longer options, this will inevitably lead to violence.

Some people seem to think that opinions are something sacred that is not to be challenged. I disagree. Your opinions inform your actions and thereby affect others. Everyone should therefore care about your opinion.

And finally: Certain things are simply not questions of opinion. For example, when I write that nobody has passed Randi's preliminary test, this is a fact and not a matter of opinion. Math is the same, it's a fact and not a matter of opinion.

Let's come back to the actual topic. If your opinion differs, please challenge mine. I'm mainly here to refine mine.


Dear Samuel94720 - Its a matter of perception. Just look at your reply to my initial comment above. There are so many assumptions from your part that I'm giving up trying to correct you :D
08/21/2008 07:44:32 AM · #59
BeeCee, let me just quickly add something: The shopping coincidence you described could be interpreted in many different ways by different people. Someone might say that your friend must be a witch who jinxed you into buying the same bathing suit. Or someone might claim that the store is using mind control techniques to force you to buy stuff. Or someone might say that the color of the suit has a magical attraction. Or that there must be a telepathic connection between the two of you. etc. etc. etc.

How would we know which explanation is more likely to be true? And how would you defend your friend if someone wanted to burn her for being a witch?

(I'm currently traveling, I'll read your article in a few hours.)
08/21/2008 07:46:25 AM · #60
Originally posted by crayon:

Dear Samuel94720 - Its a matter of perception. Just look at your reply to my initial comment above. There are so many assumptions from your part that I'm giving up trying to correct you :D

Please do. Correct my assumptions. Tell me about your perceptions.
08/21/2008 08:14:32 AM · #61
On 3 November 1998 at 06h20 I sort of woke up.... a splitting migraine killing me. I mumbled, so I was told, "Someone is going to die, someone very close to us". My wife just shook her head, thinking I must be really suffering.
On 4 November 1998, at 6h30 I was already on my way to represent a case, my carphone rang.. " Older Brother," said my youngest brother, " Father (stepfather for 24 years) died 10 minutes ago, looks like a massive heart attack". 24 Hours notice. Paul Schlebusch, my dear buddy, 20 minutes notice. Uncle jan, 24 hours notice. Want more? Amazing thing is for me I pay the price in migraines and scary depressions, and more and more, total withdrawel from society.

Lately, when I get the 'feeling', I phone my son. Less than a month ago he sufferred a severe episode, so bad that I phoned his caretakers, from here in Korea, to Kleinbay, Cape Town, South Africa, to rush to his assistance.

Yes, there is a sixth sense and we all have it. But not all recognises/acknowledges it. It is like common sense, you have it but prefer to ignore it or do not know how to recognise it. I for one wish I could have switched it off.... :_(
08/21/2008 08:16:28 AM · #62
My sixth sense is actually my spirit guide.

My guide has helped me all my life.
08/21/2008 08:21:27 AM · #63
Originally posted by BeeCee:


Btw, I came across this article tonight which I found rather interesting.


Very interesting article. I have a "voice" that warns me of impending danger from time to time. The last time was about nine years ago. I was driving down a local road at dusk. The "voice" alerted me to danger ahead. There were no exact words, but the implication was danger. Less than five seconds later a large doe deer started into my path from the left side of the road. I braked as quickly as possible but still had an accident. The deer actually struck the side of my car just in front of the driver door, spun around and hit the rear door creating a huge dent. Had I not taken my foot off the gas when I heard the "voice", I'd have still been doing 60mph rather than 45mph. The deer easily weighed 160 pounds. Coming in the windshield it would have probably killed me.

I don't think this was a magical sixth sense at work, but something much like that in the article you posted. I had not consciously seen the deer ahead. But..... obviously some portion of my mind had! It had a definite preference for self-preservation. But.... I do not dismiss true supernatural events completely. Just because I've not experienced one doesn't mean it can't happen. I don't find it necessary to dismiss such phenomena just to preserve my logical world view.
08/21/2008 10:44:53 AM · #64
Originally posted by crayon:

Dear Samuel94720 - you've gotta learn to let go, and accept that, in this world, among billions of people alive, there are bound to be people having opinions which differ from yours. you just gotta accept that. stop trying so hard to prove everyone wrong just because you dont share their opinions, thoughts, or believe. sheesh... you need a woodie.

Er.. the very title of this thread invites discussion. Had she not wanted a contrary opinion, whatever form it took, BeeCee could have titled it "There is a 'sixth sense'". And even if she had, it's incumbent on many people to counter irrational claims with demands of proof, or to suggest more realistic alternative explanations to supposedly supernatural occurrances. It isn't a matter so much of trying to prove others wrong, as simply asking to back up anectdotes and outright claims of knowledge of fantastic events with some real-world evidence.

There's a lot of hogwash floating around out there in the world, and at the end of the day, it merely gets tiresome. I see nothing wrong in reminding others that the world is actually a very rational place. Nobody actually has to accept that fact, but that doesn't mean some will stop pointing it out.
08/21/2008 11:06:01 AM · #65
Hey, BeeCee, studied your article. Very interesting. Note what the researchers did: They came up with a theory. Then they devised a test to check their theory. They observed study participants, measured their brain activity, etc. And then they came to the conclusion that their research indicates that a certain region of the brain picks up clues about danger before we consciously do so.

This is good science. This is how we can obtain reliable knowledge about the world.

Please note that these experimental results have absolutely nothing to do with your shopping story or people who think they feel it when relatives thousands of miles away are in danger. The article does not refer to any supernatural events or explanations.

It would be interesting to devise test procedures for phenomena like your shopping experience, too. This would allow us to find out if they are more than mere coincidences. Maybe we could discover what kind of information can be obtained under which circumstances. This might all be very interesting.

Originally posted by docpjv:

Lately, when I get the 'feeling', I phone my son. Less than a month ago he sufferred a severe episode, so bad that I phoned his caretakers, from here in Korea, to Kleinbay, Cape Town, South Africa, to rush to his assistance.

How many times did you have "the feeling" and your son was fine? We have a strong tendency to remember all the instances where our "feeling" was right and to dismiss all others.

And BeeCee, coming back to my question from above: What would you answer a person saying "Your friend could be a witch. You cannot disprove it. We have to be open to the possibility. Let's burn her just to be on the safe side. She could be a danger to us all."?
08/21/2008 11:45:54 AM · #66
Hey Crayon...You're

Sorry Sam...I couldn't resist and didn't have anything intelligent to add to the thread.

Edit: sorry can't spell either.

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by crayon:

Dear Samuel94720 - you've gotta learn to let go, and accept that, in this world, among billions of people alive, there are bound to be people having opinions which differ from yours. you just gotta accept that. stop trying so hard to prove everyone wrong just because you dont share their opinions, thoughts, or believe. sheesh... you need a woodie.

Our opinions form and change based on our experiences (events that happen to us, articles we read, things we see on TV, discussions we have with friends, etc.). Are you arguing we should stop this process at some point? (Why? And when?)

What is the alternative to discussion? We separate into different communities with contradicting beliefs and interests. When discussion, negotiation, compromise are no longer options, this will inevitably lead to violence.

Some people seem to think that opinions are something sacred that is not to be challenged. I disagree. Your opinions inform your actions and thereby affect others. Everyone should therefore care about your opinion.

And finally: Certain things are simply not questions of opinion. For example, when I write that nobody has passed Randi's preliminary test, this is a fact and not a matter of opinion. Math is the same, it's a fact and not a matter of opinion.

Let's come back to the actual topic. If your opinion differs, please challenge mine. I'm mainly here to refine mine.


Dear Samuel94720 - Its a matter of perception. Just look at your reply to my initial comment above. There are so many assumptions from your part that I'm giving up trying to correct you :D


Message edited by author 2008-08-21 11:49:03.
08/21/2008 12:13:16 PM · #67
Eek I looked at the thread and am keeping my head low. All I'm going to say is, in my line of work you pretty much have to have very well-honed senses. Ever 'felt' the presence of another person entering the room, without having any knowledge whatsoever that they were around?

I have a highly developed sense in that respect, and use it all the time, for example if I am in a field of horses. Whether or not I know the herd well, I NEVER ignore that itching sense that something has or is about to go horribly wrong.

*ducking back out of line of fire*
08/21/2008 12:46:40 PM · #68
Originally posted by snaffles:

Eek I looked at the thread and am keeping my head low. All I'm going to say is, in my line of work you pretty much have to have very well-honed senses. Ever 'felt' the presence of another person entering the room, without having any knowledge whatsoever that they were around?

I have a highly developed sense in that respect, and use it all the time, for example if I am in a field of horses. Whether or not I know the herd well, I NEVER ignore that itching sense that something has or is about to go horribly wrong.

*ducking back out of line of fire*


And you are exactly correct in your sense. This an example to me of what is referred to as the 6th sense. Similar to the sitting in a resturant and "sensing or feeling" that someone is watching you - and you turn around and they are. You would be hard pressed to convince those who have survived a harrowing experience (such as a soldier who sensed the need to move or a woman who sensed she was about to be assaulted or those recounted in newsarticles that decided not to get on a certain plane that ultimately crashed) that there is no 6th sense or something extra sensory. They were tuned into something, and that something is what is commonly referred to as women's intuition or the Etheric sense.

Since I have already had this discourse with some on this site, I shall not rehash it again. Simply, there is enough evidence in my opinion to conclude that some if not all have access to a feeling or sense that is outside the normally identified 5 senses of taste, touch, smell, sight and hearing. Regardless of what you call it. fir3bird calls it a "voice". Others it is an extra sensory perception or 6th sense. In my training it was referred to as the "etheric" sense by Bruce Siddle, founder of PPCT inc. Massad Ayoob of LFI also refers to this sense in his training courses. I'm pretty certain that many of the warrior arts promote a similar view of being "in tune" or able to tap the senses for an extra measure of information.

Message edited by author 2008-08-21 14:57:20.
08/21/2008 12:55:57 PM · #69
Originally posted by BeeCee:

Btw, I came across this article tonight which I found rather interesting.


BeeCee, that article actually argues against the existence of a sixth-sense. In essence, it says that your brain will interpret subtle cues picked up from the five senses to subconsciously cause a reaction to avoid a mistake.

For example, when I was in college, I used to drive a student transport van through West Philly until 3:00 in the morning. As I approached an intersection in the wee hours, for a reason unknown to me, I slowed to stop at a green light. By the time I realized my mistake, a car came cruising through the intersection straight through a red light. Divine intervention? Guardian angel? Sixth sense? Not likely. What most likely happened, and what the article suggests, is that my sense of hearing may have heard the motor coming down the cross street and/or my sense of vision may have seen the cast of the approaching headlights and subconsciously concluded that this intersection is not a safe place to be. Neither of the two cues were enough for me to conciously recognize a threat, but it was enough to let my subconscious know that something bad may soon happen. Hence I went to stop at a green light based on my senses of sight and/or sound.

Message edited by author 2008-08-21 13:02:22.
08/21/2008 01:10:17 PM · #70
Originally posted by Louis:


Er.. the very title of this thread invites discussion.


I certainly hope so. These are in fact "discussion forums".

Originally posted by Louis:


Had she not wanted a contrary opinion, whatever form it took, BeeCee could have titled it "There is a 'sixth sense'". And even if she had, it's incumbent on many people to counter irrational claims


I would have thought that since you find such discussion "tiresome" you'd avoid getting involved. LOL

But I suspect you've got a rather large "iron" in this fire.
08/21/2008 01:11:28 PM · #71
Originally posted by kenskid:

Hey Crayon...You're

Sorry Sam...I couldn't resist and didn't have anything intelligent to add to the thread.

Edit: sorry can't spell either.

Thank you for keeping us entertained with various graphical depictions of animals.

What's your opinion on the subject discussed? (It need not be intelligent... ;-) )
08/21/2008 01:27:57 PM · #72
I posted one of the first ones...look towards the beginning.

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by kenskid:

Hey Crayon...You're

Sorry Sam...I couldn't resist and didn't have anything intelligent to add to the thread.

Edit: sorry can't spell either.

Thank you for keeping us entertained with various graphical depictions of animals.

What's your opinion on the subject discussed? (It need not be intelligent... ;-) )
08/21/2008 01:38:03 PM · #73
Sam94720, they'd have every right to believe her a witch, just as you and I each have our own beliefs in the incident, but their right ends when it threatens another's life without proof.

Sam, I agree with you on the methodology in the article. It appears that there is strong scientific evidence that "hunches" are often valid.

Trinch, I don't feel it does, with what I define as sixth sense. I don't believe that there's anything supernatural or spiritual or ethereal in it, rather something perfectly natural and explainable by scientific methods. I fully accept that it is almost certainly our subconscious brain processing information that we are not consciously even aware we're recieving.

But I do believe that we may be recieving information beyond what science currently has recognised and I feel that as scientests gain greater understanding into the workings of the brain they will come to understand how we gather this information and how we process it.

edit to remove a superfluous word

Message edited by author 2008-08-21 14:43:47.
08/21/2008 02:20:48 PM · #74
BeeCee, I think we are in agreement regarding the article.

But here I still see a problem:

Originally posted by BeeCee:

Sam94720, they'd have every right to believe her a witch, just as you and I each have our own beliefs in the incident, but their right ends when it threatens another's life without proof.

People here often assume that beliefs are something private and philosophical. However, people make decisions based on their beliefs and they take action based on their beliefs.

If you accept someone's belief that your friend is a witch, you'll have a hard time arguing against burning her. If someone believes her to be a witch and a danger to everyone else, it makes absolute sense for that person to burn her. If you accept the belief, you also have to accept that they are obliged to burn her to protect themselves and their loved ones.
08/21/2008 02:42:50 PM · #75
Sorry, I'm not interested in debating the ethics of witch-burning in this thread :)
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