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11/12/2002 09:58:40 PM · #1 |
Ok everyone, I know that we have been on this subject before, and I tried to locate the thread, but kept getting an error message, so am starting a new thread...
Going through the "Macro" challenge, I find a number of shots that may (or may not!) have been taken by a younger photographer, and I always seem to run into difficulty rating these. If a young person, (say, under 12), took the shot, I would love to know so that I can tailor my "comments" appropriately - I think children can get their feelings hurt easily, and I would want to choose my words carefully. If the shot was taken by an adult, my comments would be quite different - an adult would be more open to straightforward comments about their shot. (Yes, I understand that IN ANY CASE, words should be chosen carefully, but I have to think that there are others who sometimes have difficulty with this "younger photographer" issue.)
Thanks!
linda
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11/12/2002 10:24:49 PM · #2 |
A little news that may affect the discussion on this topic. Starting with the release of the new version of the site, registered users must be at least 14 years old. We've been wisened to a lot of internet law, at least one of those laws saying it is unlawful to collect (and diplay) information about people under the age of 14. This is a liability we can't afford to risk.
Drew |
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11/12/2002 10:30:55 PM · #3 |
Understandable! Thanks for the reply, Drew. That pretty much takes care of the issue for me - I will be more comfortable knowing that every photographer is no younger than 14 - and I guess 14 year olds should be able to deal with straightforward commenting - possibly better than some of the adults!!
Thanks,
linda
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11/12/2002 10:45:09 PM · #4 |
That's very true. I've found that just stratightforward conversation with young people, as long as you don't use too big of words, is the best approach. They seem to respect you a lot more because you are not talking down to them. They absolutely hate that.
T
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11/12/2002 11:37:19 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by drewmedia:
A little news that may affect the discussion on this topic. Starting with the release of the new version of the site, registered users must be at least 14 years old. We've been wisened to a lot of internet law, at least one of those laws saying it is unlawful to collect (and diplay) information about people under the age of 14. This is a liability we can't afford to risk.
Drew
Even with parental permission/supervision/assistance? Isaac will be so disappointed!
I'm surely there are sites which have dealt with this. Tell your attorney I'll sign (or help write) any waiver.
Or can you have a toggled "Underaged Member" option/preference which would suppress display of the problematic info on the Profile page?
You can require that an adult member register the minor, and only the adult's password can change the info or settings. |
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11/12/2002 11:50:44 PM · #6 |
I think any comment on any photo should be tailored in such a way that it would not hurt someone's feelings. You should choose your words carefully on EVERY comment... not just those where you think a child has taken the photo. "Straightforward" is fine.... The words you choose leave an impression though, regardless of the age of the viewer.
This is why I like to see the score gives to accompany the comment. There are lots of comments around here that speak only of negative aspects of a photo. When this happens, the receiver usually assumes the score was low. Not many people take the time and effort required to properly balance a comment....
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11/13/2002 01:45:51 AM · #7 |
At times I wish I knew the age of the photographer before I make comments...
And at times I wish I knew the quality of the camera used before I make comments...
Is that the best they can do with what they have to work with? (Either age or equipment...)
I guess I have to vote on the pic, choose `friendly` words, and let feelings fall where they may...
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11/13/2002 01:49:45 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by drewmedia:
A little news that may affect the discussion on this topic. Starting with the release of the new version of the site, registered users must be at least 14 years old. We've been wisened to a lot of internet law, at least one of those laws saying it is unlawful to collect (and diplay) information about people under the age of 14. This is a liability we can't afford to risk.
Drew
I gather we are talking about the next version? I received one comment on my current photo, and if the signature is to be believed the member list shows the person to be 9 years old.
As for critiquing photos. I try to be constructive and say what I liked about the photo as well as what I didn't like. I'm well over 14, but nobody likes comments that say, "This picture sucks."
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11/13/2002 04:38:20 AM · #9 |
John,
As I said, I agree that words should be chosen carefully in any case, and I do always try to tailor my comments so that I do not hurt someone's feelings. I just feel that a photo taken by a child would require certain comments, whereas, if the SAME photo was taken by an adult, the comment may be quite different, but not hurtful. :)
And as for leaving the score - I used to do that, but I have found that most people respond negatively when given a somewhat low score - (under 6). I always sign my comments so that people can respond to that if they want to, but I don't like people getting angry with me simply because I didn't see their photo the same way they did.
linda
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11/13/2002 08:57:34 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
I gather we are talking about the next version? I received one comment on my current photo, and if the signature is to be believed the member list shows the person to be 9 years old.
As the parent of that 9 year old (athena), I assure you she really is 9. Both her father and I are registered users of the site. I have not seen any photos here that I would not want her to see (even in past weeks where there were raging "nekked" discussions). Her father and I have discussed the site with her and how it works. She has seen how the comments that we get on our photos often range wildly and she understands she needs to take pictures she likes, not pictures for the 300 or so people here who will rate and comment - a lesson we all need to remember more. Currently her picture's score is beating her father and mine, so I think she'll be okay. Even if she doesn't do as well next week, she's fine with the competition aspect.
I would be very interested in some kind of parental waiver to complete when the new site goes online, especially since this activity is much more enriching that some of the other school sanctioned activities designed to promote art and enrichment.
How about humane commenting on all photos!!!
shedonist
* This message has been edited by the author on 11/13/2002 8:56:17 AM. |
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11/13/2002 10:07:12 AM · #11 |
This link explains COPPA (Child Online Privacy Protection Act) and how businesses can comply and still allow access to their web sites.
My opinion is that the lose of Issac, Athena, and the other young folks would be tragic. I've been waiting for the day I felt Malia was ready to be active here and am sad to realize it may not be possible.
But I feel even more strongly that the solution should not be dumped on the site admins... There are concerned parents here and I think it's up to US to find an easy to implement solution that will protect the admins. If Drew and Langdon don't want to assume the risk, I respect that decision.
Just some thoughts... Take them for what they are worth...
PS ~ A quick look through the COPPA site makes me think it isn't all that difficult to comply with (any site should have the same privacy notice for it's adult participants anyway imo)... I have to go to work, but I would be glad to take on as much work as is needed/helpful (as would the other parents, I'm sure)... Drew? Langdon? This sound like a path you'd be willing to travel?
* This message has been edited by the author on 11/13/2002 10:17:34 AM.
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11/13/2002 10:25:08 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
This link explains COPPA (Child Online Privacy Protection Act) and how businesses can comply and still allow access to their web sites.
...
But I feel even more strongly that the solution should not be dumped on the site admins... There are concerned parents here and I think it's up to US to find an [i]easy to implement solution that will protect the admins. If Drew and Langdon don't want to assume the risk, I respect that decision.[/i]
Thanks for posting this link. I for one will definitely check it out. I agree that it would be great to find a way to keep the young people involved, but that it should not rest solely on the admins. I don't want to put the admin's or site hosts at risk, but I sure hope we can find a way to make it comply. I am a programmer by trade and have done some ASP work, so maybe I could even help in the solution! |
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11/13/2002 11:30:04 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by clicker:
At times I wish I knew the age of the photographer before I make comments...
And at times I wish I knew the quality of the camera used before I make comments...
Is that the best they can do with what they have to work with? (Either age or equipment...)
I guess I have to vote on the pic, choose `friendly` words, and let feelings fall where they may...
I've felt the same way before about equipment when commenting. I'd hate to tell someone they need a clearer/sharper shot when they're camera is simply inadequate. However, as I think about it, my 2 megapixel coolpix 2500 is far from being top of the line, yet I wouldn't want comments to be softened for the sake of the camera I use. If I'm posting things that exceed what my camera is capable, and they look bad because of it, that's something I still need to improve on and therefore I'd definately want it to show up in the comments.
As for children, if you are going to submit your work in an environment like this with anonymous voting/commenting, you have to be prepared to be responded to the same as everyone else. If a parent deems a child incapable of taking the sometimes harsh criticism that comes with having work on this site (which would be perfectly understandable)they shouldn't allow them to submit. |
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11/13/2002 11:49:55 AM · #14 |
Linda, thanks for bringing this up. I am in a real quandry when I see photographs I believe are taken by a youngster and are of what seems to be one of their prized posessions. I see it and think, this is a really good photo considering it was taken by a child. The same photo taken by an adult wouldn't be good at all. It's difficult for me to take the photographer's age out of the equation. I hope these these youngsters realize that their photo is compared to those of seasoned photographers and shouldn't be discouraged from competing. And, I hope very much that children will continue to be able to compete with parental approval.
I would love to see a youth only challenge |
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11/13/2002 12:04:32 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by joanns:
I would love to see a youth only challenge
I don't know that I would want to exclude them like that. Much in the
same way I wouldn't want to exclude or 'handicap' entries based on
camera quality.
We had a 15 year old winner, with a really poor camera a few months ago
(Except for a minor rule violation which got it disqualified). No
real reason that he should have been side-lined for age, or for camera
quality. It may be harder to win with a poor camera, but it isn't
impossible.
Also, I think a good or a bad picture is good or bad, irrespective of
the photographer who took it - should we vote based on how many year's
of experience the photographer had, rather than their age ?
I believe that we should comment fairly on images. I would hope and
expect that for younger entrants that their parents are with them when
they are viewing the comments and can provide any needed filtering or
interpretation on the results. I'm not so old that I can't remember
hating when adults patronised me. |
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11/13/2002 01:05:56 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by joanns:
I see it and think, this is a really good photo considering it was taken by a child. The same photo taken by an adult wouldn't be good at all.
This is exactly why I don't like the entire concept... There should be NO bias in the scoring based on the age of the photographer. It's simply not fair to everyone else who has entered the challenge. Your comment leads me to believe that you would score the photo higher if you knew it was taken by a child... please correct me if I'm wrong...
You should consider judging the image you see before you. It doesn't matter who took it... what kind of camera it was taken with... etc...
Our job here is not to make the photographer 'feel' better by biasing our scores based on anything other than the image presented.
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11/13/2002 01:16:44 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by joanns:
[i]
I would love to see a youth only challenge
I don't know that I would want to exclude them like that. Much in the
same way I wouldn't want to exclude or 'handicap' entries based on
camera quality.
[/i]
Just to clarify Gordon, I want them included -- but it would be great to have a challenge where an 8 year old could actually have a chance at getting a ribbon.
* This message has been edited by the author on 11/13/2002 1:20:01 PM. |
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11/13/2002 02:20:25 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
This is exactly why I don't like the entire concept... There should be NO bias in the scoring based on the age of the photographer. It's simply not fair to everyone else who has entered the challenge. Your comment leads me to believe that you would score the photo higher if you knew it was taken by a child... please correct me if I'm wrong...
You should consider judging the image you see before you. It doesn't matter who took it... what kind of camera it was taken with... etc...
Our job here is not to make the photographer 'feel' better by biasing our scores based on anything other than the image presented.
It was never the rating/scoring that concerned me. I have not yet seen an image that I would change the score on if I knew it was taken by a young person. But, yes, my comments would be different for a very young child than those I would make for an adult.
So far, hearing from the parents above, who have children who participate on the site, I am very encouraged that the parents monitor the site with the child, and discuss the comments, thus enabling the children to better understand comments. This does alleviate some of my concern.
I think a child's feelings can be hurt easily sometimes -even if the comment was not meant to be hurtful in any way, and it may discourage them, and I would hate to see that happen.
I have to add that I did not mean to start any kind of argument here. I simply had a concern for the younger photographers, and figured that if I did, others may be having similar concerns.
Thanks,
Linda
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11/13/2002 02:45:44 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by joanns:
[i]I see it and think, this is a really good photo considering it was taken by a child. The same photo taken by an adult wouldn't be good at all.
This is exactly why I don't like the entire concept... There should be NO bias in the scoring based on the age of the photographer. It's simply not fair to everyone else who has entered the challenge. Your comment leads me to believe that you would score the photo higher if you knew it was taken by a child... please correct me if I'm wrong...
You should consider judging the image you see before you. It doesn't matter who took it... what kind of camera it was taken with... etc...
Our job here is not to make the photographer 'feel' better by biasing our scores based on anything other than the image presented.
[/i]
Yes, you are wrong, for the most part. But, it is hard to keep your emotions out of your scoring, at least for some of us.
* This message has been edited by the author on 11/13/2002 2:47:57 PM. |
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11/13/2002 03:04:44 PM · #20 |
I'm merely curious - how would your comments be different for a child ?
Do you have examples ? I can't think of a situation where I would leave
a different comment.
The main difficultly I have is in trying to judge the level of experience
the person has, when I leave comments. Though age is a very minor factor
in this, I don't really see how it is relevant.
I'd like to think I was as supporting or resonable in comments to an
adult as I would be to a child. |
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11/13/2002 03:49:31 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by joanns:
Yes, you are wrong, for the most part. But, it is hard to keep your emotions out of your scoring, at least for some of us
I agree joanns. I will be the first to say that I score AND comment emotionally. Can't help it, it's just how I am - photography IS emotional to me.
Gordon: Please accept the following comment in good humor, as that is how I intend it :) ...
In a recent thread someone wanted me to justify how I score. And here I feel that people want me to justify how I comment. I simply feel no need to do that! Age is more than a minor factor for me, but that's just me. I also think that I am as supportive and resonable in comments to an adult as I am to a child. It all just comes back to the same old thing - we are all so different, and of course, we may be quite as different in our commenting as we are in our scoring.
Thanks,
Linda
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11/13/2002 04:07:53 PM · #22 |
I'm not asking you to justify it, I'm asking you to explain it.
You did after all start the discussion. I can't think of any comments
that I would make differently for a child - other than perhaps on
subject matter, but I would assume that children wouldn't be entering
'adult themed' subject matter anyway. Hence my question, I can't
understand why you need some sort of flag on the photograph to tell
you that the submitter is young. If you could provide a good example
it would go some way to helping us realise why there is a need for this
at all and hence might mean it would actually happen.
I can almost see a reason for an indication of 'level of photographic
experience' but to me that has nothing to do with age, just technical
competency.
If you want something like this changed, it would make sense to show why it matters, even if it is just to you. So again, I'm not asking you to
justify how you comment - but to justify your request for change. I don't see that that is unresonable. |
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11/13/2002 04:37:05 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by joanns:
Linda, thanks for bringing this up. I am in a real quandry when I see photographs I believe are taken by a youngster and are of what seems to be one of their prized posessions. I see it and think, this is a really good photo considering it was taken by a child. The same photo taken by an adult wouldn't be good at all. It's difficult for me to take the photographer's age out of the equation. I hope these these youngsters realize that their photo is compared to those of seasoned photographers and shouldn't be discouraged from competing. And, I hope very much that children will continue to be able to compete with parental approval....
originally posted by lhall
I think a child's feelings can be hurt easily sometimes - even if the comment was not meant to be hurtful in any way, and it may discourage them, and I would hate to see that happen.
The above posts adequately illustrate what, and why, it matters to me.
I would handle comments to a young child differently than an adult, and that is all I am trying to say, and I am most certainly not talking about patronizing them. It is obvious that others do have have a concern about this, and that is fine!
Thanks,
Linda
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11/13/2002 04:49:20 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I believe that we should comment fairly on images. I would hope and
expect that for younger entrants that their parents are with them when
they are viewing the comments and can provide any needed filtering or
interpretation on the results. I'm not so old that I can't remember
hating when adults patronised me.
One of the highlights if Isaac's best finish (91st out of 218) was reading all the positive and constructive comments, knowing the commenter had no idea they were talking to a 5 year-old who was just learning to read (but has been using a computer for 3 years). His whole family got a kick out of it, and wouldn't want to change anything!
This is one of the few activities parents and children can participate in together as true peers. I believe that people not only learn better, but develop a enthusiasm for learning, when treated just like other people. I've always used "big" words around Isaac, not baby-talk, and I think he has better-than-average language skills because of it.
He's not a real regular participant right now (kindergartners have short attention spans) but probably would pick it up as he gets older. |
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11/13/2002 06:11:11 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
One of the highlights if Isaac's best finish (91st out of 218) was reading all the positive and constructive comments, knowing the commenter had no idea they were talking to a 5 year-old who was just learning to read (but has been using a computer for 3 years). His whole family got a kick out of it, and wouldn't want to change anything!
This is one of the few activities parents and children can participate in together as true peers. I believe that people not only learn better, but develop a enthusiasm for learning, when treated just like other people. I've always used "big" words around Isaac, not baby-talk, and I think he has better-than-average language skills because of it.
He's not a real regular participant right now (kindergartners have short attention spans) but probably would pick it up as he gets older.
This is one thing I've been enjoying this week is all the comments on my daughter's (the 9 yr old's) picture. She has gotten very into it and we check our score a couple times a day. Her picture is still edging out dad's and mine by a small amount. The comments have all been fine - many questions, but good comments as well. She definitely digs being able to participate in such a fun and grown-up forum.
It's been interesting to watch her rate photos though. She rates photos on a very different criteria which fascinates her dad and myself. Just goes to show, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. |
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