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04/23/2007 09:25:56 PM · #201
I agree with what pccjrose just said.
I do have a different feeling about it.
I won't be voting on images that I believe I can pick out simply because I know within myself that there are photographers here that are site favs mostly because people vote on their images knowing that those are theirs.
I will use a Contre-juor photograph that scored poorly as an example.
I forget the name of it.
Several people said something along the lines of "Hey! I know you! 10!"
It was an AWFUL photo..
And it did score poorly, but people voted it ten knowing that it belonged to one of their friends.
It just seems that people using a distinctive style have an unfair advantage when they act really friendly and make lots of friends. Their friends learn about their style and they rise to the top nearly regardless of skill.
I understand that skill always has something to do with it, but they have an advantage nonetheless.
04/23/2007 09:40:19 PM · #202
I think that people are overreacting on this whole situation. I looked at my statistical favorites, and there are a few that I seem to consistantly vote very high on. I can look at the amount of votes I cast overall for the person, and see there are about 5 that I vote consistantly higher on.
They are Dr. Achoo, Ursula, Falc, Scalvert and Sandy P. I do not know style or anything, just that technically and photographically the images are well done and deserving. So, am I worried? Not at all. I am going to continue to vote as I always have done.
What I think would be good, though, is to look at those votes for 1, 2 and 3. If the sc can see how many of those votes a person cast, then look at the comments made, there should be a similar percent. For instance, if I vote 8% below 4, then I should have an equal 8% in comments, meaning I am commenting to back up my low score. This would definitely cut down on the spiteful voters who do that just because they want to inflate their score. Not that it works very well, but I think there are those who do vote very low for no reason, and don't even leave a comment.

Message edited by author 2007-04-23 21:44:05.
04/23/2007 09:41:00 PM · #203
A collective judgment call was made in those cases where the photographer in question had a specific or distinctive and consistently high-scoring style. There is no need to stop voting and commenting on popular photogs.

Nothing is guaranteed, but if you didn't receive a warning or more already, you are probably good. OK? :) For *most* people, there is no need to change anything you are currently doing.

The key here "abnormal" voting patterns. If a particular image by a particular photographer wound up scoring in the Top 10, well, your own vote of 10 on that image isn't really abnormal now, is it?

I know we aren't helping much because we can't really say exactly where the lines are, but please try to think of the big picture - think in terms of statistical probability.

Most photographers here at DPC never give or receive more than a few high votes to/from the same person in any given particular period of time; and unless you vote every image in every challenge there ever was you probably certainly never manage to hit the same photog each and every time you vote.

Does this help a little?
04/23/2007 09:45:21 PM · #204
Originally posted by L2:



Does this help a little?


Not really
04/23/2007 09:46:11 PM · #205
Originally posted by langdon:

As always, if you know of or have reason to suspect any specific instances of cheating, please contact Site Council with any information you have. We take the integrity of the challenges very seriously.


Should we report all the people that have guessed the photographer in the comments? If someone leaves a comment saying "Hey! I know you! 10!" they most likely voted with bias and should be punished.
04/23/2007 09:48:09 PM · #206
I'm not sure I understand completely either,
But I think I understand enough.
I don't know.
I'm somewhat confused.
But I don't know many people here anyways.
I think I'm safe.
04/23/2007 09:48:42 PM · #207
Originally posted by pccjrose:

My concern is that several photographers on this site have VERY distinctive styles or use certain models or locations that are very noticeable. With the current voter monitoring situation, I know I will be very reluctant to vote on any entries from these photographers (good or bad) because I don't want to be banned. I am sure others feel the same way. I can think of many photogs such as chele, larus, toya, xxxscarletxxx, and escapetooz and others that are extremely easy to pick out due to subject matter or their face. I must admit that I will likely no longer vote on their entries due to concerns that I will be singled out for voting favoritism. I find this an extreme shame.

My opinion is that this new edict from the SC has put an unnecessary and unfortunate pressure on people who vote in challenges. This is making the voting process an unhappy occurance. A true shame...


I think you're being a little paranoid. You're assuming the SC looked at one thing and one thing only and determined that people were cheating. Everybody has a statistical favorites list so by default everyone is guilty of giving a lot of high votes to certain people. This by itself indicates nothing.

I have many people on my statistical favorites that aren't household names as well as the usual high scorers. Take a look at these two:

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' librodo - 7.0 (25 votes)
' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' sibeling - 7.0 (13 votes)

One might say that sibeling shouldn't be tied with librodo but he is. I don't know sibeling and have never even communicated with him yet there he is ranked right up there with Manny. So far nobody has questioned me about this or any of the others in my list. Probably because there is no reason to as there is nothing else to assume foul play.
04/23/2007 09:51:25 PM · #208
Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by langdon:

As always, if you know of or have reason to suspect any specific instances of cheating, please contact Site Council with any information you have. We take the integrity of the challenges very seriously.


Should we report all the people that have guessed the photographer in the comments? If someone leaves a comment saying "Hey! I know you! 10!" they most likely voted with bias and should be punished.


I was wondering the same thing.
The photograph I was referring to was one of the bottom scores in contre-jour. Several users made it clear that they were ranking the image just because they thought they knew the photographer. They turned out to be wrong in the end, but they still thought they knew, and they still voted high because of it.
See, if someone were to go "This looks like Beautiful-Joe. I like the lighting, but your focus is off. I'll have to give you a five." I don't see a problem. But when someone goes "Hey Joe! How are you? Seven." It's like, not good.. Or something..
04/23/2007 09:54:04 PM · #209
Originally posted by LoudDog:


Should we report all the people that have guessed the photographer in the comments? If someone leaves a comment saying "Hey! I know you! 10!" they most likely voted with bias and should be punished.


If you see that comment from one individual given to another individual upwards of 7, 8, 9, 15+ times, by all means, please report it.
04/23/2007 09:55:25 PM · #210
Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by LoudDog:


Should we report all the people that have guessed the photographer in the comments? If someone leaves a comment saying "Hey! I know you! 10!" they most likely voted with bias and should be punished.


If you see that comment from one individual given to another individual upwards of 7, 8, 9, 15+ times, by all means, please report it.


What if they go "Ew it's Bob! I hate you! One!" Because that's not nice either..
?
04/23/2007 09:56:14 PM · #211
I like what Joe is saying. When one mimics anothers style and gets high scores, it is most likely because people think they recognize the style. I would never write in the comment who I think the photographer is because I would most likely be wrong. Still, there are favorites and always will be. I think I spotted an image by Gringo in one of the challenges because of the style, but I did not let it change my vote. I gave it what I think the photo deserved. There may be a few who are tempered by favs, but I have a feeling overall that is not the case. I believe most voters do vote fairly, even if they think they know whos image it is.
04/23/2007 10:02:45 PM · #212
Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by LoudDog:


Should we report all the people that have guessed the photographer in the comments? If someone leaves a comment saying "Hey! I know you! 10!" they most likely voted with bias and should be punished.


If you see that comment from one individual given to another individual upwards of 7, 8, 9, 15+ times, by all means, please report it.


It's okay if I do it 5-6 times and admit to it in the comments, but if a stat cruncher finds me I'm toast. Got it - Thanks!

Message edited by author 2007-04-23 22:11:21.
04/23/2007 10:42:27 PM · #213
There's a lot of unnecessary speculation and paranoia going on here. Nothing has changed as far as the rules go, and we're not out to second-guess a voter's opinions. If you aren't sharing your entries with others who might vote them unfairly or voting a friend or relative higher just because of who they are, then you have little to worry about. Vote the merits of the photo and you'll be fine.
04/23/2007 10:58:56 PM · #214
Originally posted by pccjrose:

My concern is that several photographers on this site have VERY distinctive styles or use certain models or locations that are very noticeable. With the current voter monitoring situation, I know I will be very reluctant to vote on any entries from these photographers (good or bad) because I don't want to be banned. I am sure others feel the same way. I can think of many photogs such as ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' chele, ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' larus, ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' toyan, ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' xXxscarletxXx, and ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' escapetooz and others that are extremely easy to pick out due to subject matter or their face.

Do you truly believe that every submission by one of these folks deserves a ten? I sincerely doubt that a pool of "objective" voters would think so, evidenced by the fact that not one of these fine photographers has ever had a photo finish with a final score even of nine. So if you vote them tens across the board, you are voting with bias towards the (supposed) photographer, and not on the merits of the individual photo -- that is what we are asking you not to do.

If you can just bring yourself to ignore who took the photo and rate it the same way you are scoring all the other entries -- and some of them will deserve tens -- you will have no problems.
04/23/2007 11:18:42 PM · #215
An outsider's perspective.

As a relatively new participant to this site, I've been following this thread (among others here) with interest. I figured viewing the forums was a reasonable place to invest my time, before investing my money in membership fees.

What I am seeing is not pretty. Arguments about rules and intentions, disagreements about the perceived motives of "others", sick and twisted attempts at humor, people of all ages and abilities handing out both constructive criticism and insults with impunity, a hierarchy of people who represent the site, yet still willing to discuss topics without taking (public) offense at comments by members that appear to be intended to be offensive, etc... etc...

Seems worth the $25 to me. Actually it seems worth more. I'm in.

04/23/2007 11:19:16 PM · #216
Let's assume the very, absolute, mostest, horriblest, incrediblest, worst-ever dismaying worst: the SC are out to get you, and they're going to nail you to your mouse the minute you hit that 10 vote.

Are you going to worry about it? Why? Are you going to stop voting the way you'd vote otherwise, assuming you're not trading pics with friends and voting for each other? Why give them the supposed satisfaction? That is, why not behave the way you've always behaved and let the detection sort itself out?

A very few people did some things that were incontrovertible. For all of the moaning in this thread, I have yet to see someone complain that they were unfairly targeted. I *have* seen two responsible people admit their mistakes and learn from them. I respect both of them and wish them well. I've also seen others, who apparently would prefer anarchy, complain that the SC is some kind of lunatic overlord body out to screw everyone within sight. To them I say: set up your own site with no rules and see how much people participate.

Folks, trust the SC and the owners, trust that they want this to be a fun place to hang out, and vote your heart.
04/23/2007 11:23:05 PM · #217
Originally posted by jonejess:

An outsider's perspective.

...about rules and intentions, disagreements about the perceived motives of "others", sick and twisted attempts at humor, people of all ages and abilities handing out both constructive criticism and
What I am seeing is not pretty. Arguments insults with impunity, a hierarchy of people who represent the site, yet still willing to discuss topics without taking (public) offense at comments by members that appear to be intended to be offensive, etc... etc...

Seems worth the $25 to me. Actually it seems worth more. I'm in.


OMG, LOL ROFLMAO. :) Welcome Aboard!
04/23/2007 11:36:04 PM · #218
I gave this shot a 10, does that mean I'd get banned?

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/308/thumb/144897.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/308/thumb/144897.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
04/23/2007 11:45:27 PM · #219
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

I gave this shot a 10, does that mean I'd get banned?


No, but we might question your sanity. ;-P
04/23/2007 11:50:24 PM · #220
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

I gave this shot a 10, does that mean I'd get banned?


No, but we might question your sanity. ;-P


What sanity? I lost what little I had a long time ago.
04/23/2007 11:57:57 PM · #221
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

I gave this shot a 10, does that mean I'd get banned?


No, but we might question your sanity. ;-P

LOL. That was my exact thought.

Now, how can I transfer this alignment to shooting photos?
04/23/2007 11:59:31 PM · #222
Originally posted by levyj413:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

I gave this shot a 10, does that mean I'd get banned?


No, but we might question your sanity. ;-P

LOL. That was my exact thought.

Now, how can I transfer this alignment to shooting photos?


I don't know what psychotropic drugs you people are on, but that shot rocks.
04/24/2007 01:20:45 AM · #223
this "friend voting" issue is nothing new. it has been debated and discussed before in the past, and the answer was a ban. so why not just continue using the same punishment without making it appear like a new problem? being ignorant about the rules is no excuse for breaking them.
04/24/2007 03:24:21 AM · #224
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

I don't know what psychotropic drugs you people are on

Used to be the psychotropical drugs that come with a little umbrella, but that was before "the accident" - now I limit myself to smoking pineapple.

Here's some (on-topic) food for thought - regarding a comment on a photo that indicates the voter is giving extra points to compensate for all the bad votes they think the image will get (i.e. nudes in a non-nude challenge) - does that not constitute vote manipulation?
04/24/2007 03:36:54 AM · #225
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Here's some (on-topic) food for thought - regarding a comment on a photo that indicates the voter is giving extra points to compensate for all the bad votes they think the image will get (i.e. nudes in a non-nude challenge) - does that not constitute vote manipulation?


this is another issue that might need some concern.
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