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10/28/2002 10:49:06 PM · #1
Is anyone else having trouble voting this week? When I look at a photo, and I am not sure what the illusion is, I am stuck... I would hate to shoot a photo down that has an illusion so good that it can not be seen, and I would hate to give a photo a great score for a superb illusion that is not really even there... The challenge was to create an illusion to trick the viewers... well what if we do not know whether or not we are being tricked?
10/29/2002 12:48:15 AM · #2
I am having problems too.

-- Sandy

* This message has been edited by the author on 10/30/2002 8:28:03 AM.
10/29/2002 03:06:17 AM · #3
Yup, there are a few pics that I don`t know how to vote on.
I don`t know how they did it... I don`t know how much time or talent it took to make it happen... There are some pics that are just great! But there are others I am just stumped on as to how to vote...
This place is teaching us something here...
10/29/2002 04:03:38 AM · #4
Agreed, I see a lot that don't appear to be any kind of illusion at all, so I am just stumped on how to vote.

It seems a lot of people had no understanding of the illusions theme, maybe myself included.

This may be the hardest yet to interpret.

Personally I thought it should be something that is at first confusing to the eye, but then after you look at it for awhile, and think about it, it becomes possibly something real.

Unfortunately I've also seen a lot of what appears to be the use of the technique used by timj351 in his Garbage pic ... a cutout of a printout.

Oh well, anyone have any advice on how to vote?

10/29/2002 05:39:30 AM · #5
I'm finding it difficult to grade photos too. A lot of the images submitted this week don't even seem to fall in the category of 'illusion' - unless it's some very tenuous link. I can't believe somebody still submitted a picture of a dog!!!!

I seem to be awarding mainly 3s and 4s this week, which is disappointing because the topic really had a lot going for it. There are some nice photos, as usual, but most of them seem to have no connection to the challenge. I think if I was to count the number of photos that actually have some sort of relevance, it wouldn't go much higher than twenty or thirty.

Maybe we should have an extra button when voting, that allows us to recommend disqualification due to lack of relevance on the challenge's subject - and if more than 30 people (for example) click the button, the photo gets automatically removed? I'm sure that most of this week's entries would have been booted off already, using this system.
10/29/2002 06:49:55 AM · #6
My photo is an illusion that you arent going to be able to tell is an illusion unless I tell you. (Which..by being in an Illusion Challenge..I am sorta telling you Heh :-)

So..the only advice I can give is give everybody the benefit of the doubt and when you do that...then possibilities open up to you to imagine and explore outside the obvious :-)

* This message has been edited by the author on 10/29/2002 6:59:35 AM.
10/29/2002 07:19:03 AM · #7
Originally posted by hokie:
My photo is an illusion that you arent going to be able to tell is an illusion unless I tell you. (Which..by being in an Illusion Challenge..I am sorta telling you Heh :-)

So..the only advice I can give is give everybody the benefit of the doubt and when you do that...then possibilities open up to you to imagine and explore outside the obvious :-



I thought the whole point of the challenge was to create an illusion that makes people think "That's clever", or "I wonder how that was done?", not "I can't see any illusion here". Because, undoubtedly some people HAVE submiited pictures which have no relevance to the challenge whatsoever - so are we still supposed to give them good marks for this, regardless? Would you like to be placed lower than someone else who hasn't actually put any effort into creating an illusion, just because their picture looks nicer than yours?

I do get your point, if we can't see your illusion how are we supposed to tell the difference between this and the entries which obviously don't have any sort of illusion at all? Maybe you should have put some hints in your picture title, or got one of the administrators to add a note saying "This image DOES contain a vaild illusion". Or maybe, for this particular challenge, we needed the moderators to vet the entries to check which ones were valid in the first place?
10/29/2002 07:26:56 AM · #8
We can not and will not disqualify based on not meeting the challenge.... there's simply too much grey area. Please keep in mind that the vast majority of your fellow DPC'ers are trustworthy and vote with that in mind... in many cases the illusions are extremely subtle.

-Terry
10/29/2002 01:05:43 PM · #9
illusion can be captured in many ways. i've gotten a couple of comments on my photo saying that the people didn't see the illusion. in my case, the photo is not a trick photo, but the main subject matter, contrasted against the surrounding subject matter, presents two starkly different perspectives of the same image. in accepting the main subject matter you have to accept a reality that the surrounding subject matter opposes, hence the illusion is that one or the other should be correct, but not both at the same time in the same picture.
10/29/2002 01:09:29 PM · #10
This is great!

What an interesting challenge that is going to teach us unexpected things...
10/29/2002 01:47:52 PM · #11
In every case where I have not understood the image as an illusion, I have asked that the photographer PM me to explain. In this way, I can revise my scores upwards when I have a better understanding. I think I left nearly a dozen such comments, but have heard back from no-one as yet.

10/29/2002 01:47:58 PM · #12
Originally posted by pixar:
I'm finding it difficult to grade photos too. A lot of the images submitted this week don't even seem to fall in the category of 'illusion' - unless it's some very tenuous link. I can't believe somebody still submitted a picture of a dog!!!!

But that was a CAT! See, it was such a good illusion it fooled even you...and made an impression on you or you wouldn't have remembered it.
10/29/2002 01:54:47 PM · #13
Originally posted by Jak:
In every case where I have not understood the image as an illusion, I have asked that the photographer PM me to explain. In this way, I can revise my scores upwards when I have a better understanding. I think I left nearly a dozen such comments, but have heard back from no-one as yet.



This is the area where i have trouble... Should the challenge not be obvious in the photo? Should we write paragraph titles to our photos to explain them?

I can't wait till next week. If I am not familiar with whatever legend/superstition is presented, should I look it up before I vote? Should I ask for explanation before giving a final score?

The illusion challgned doesn't present me with as much of a problem as the legend/superstition challenge will. I either do or don't see the illusion. For next week, i will have no idea what I'm voting on where the challenge is concerned.

That being the case, it's basically an open and free study challenge. I'll have to vote on image quality, visual impact, etc, and not worry about whether or not it meets the challenge.

10/29/2002 01:57:42 PM · #14
Originally posted by Jak:
In every case where I have not understood the image as an illusion, I have asked that the photographer PM me to explain. In this way, I can revise my scores upwards when I have a better understanding. I think I left nearly a dozen such comments, but have heard back from no-one as yet.


Somehow I do not feel this is right to have a personal communication with the photographer and then change the score based on the explanation.
10/29/2002 02:24:32 PM · #15
I sign my comments AND note the score I am giving. The photographer has the free choice to contact me or not.
10/29/2002 03:49:57 PM · #16
I am not going to get suckered into assumming that there is an illusion when I don't see one and there might not be one at all. As voters we are here to give our opinion on the photos and vote accordingly. Nowhere does it tell us to assume the photo is legitimate. That would not be responsible voting. Besides I am just one of hundreds of voters and if I don't 'get' a concept that really is there then there are still hundreds of other chances that the other voters will get it. But if the majority of the voters don't get a photo then perhaps the problem is with the photo and not the voters. Now with that said it doesn't mean that I don't give photos a lot of latitude and really make an attempt to understand what the photographer had in mind. There are just many times that I simply don't 'get' a photo and I feel that I have to vote it down for that reason. I know that there are many irrelevant photos tossed in each to see how they will do and I don't want to be suckered in to giving these photos good scores when they don't deserve it.

T
10/29/2002 05:39:27 PM · #17
Originally posted by timj351:
Nowhere does it tell us to assume the photo is legitimate.

The rules are clear that we should assume it is legitimate. Please see the FAQ is you are confused on this.
10/29/2002 05:50:22 PM · #18
Doesn't that mean to assume that it is a legitimate shot in terms of cheating in Photoshop (or equivalent) and not that we assume it's legitimate in terms of meeting the challenge?
10/29/2002 06:07:26 PM · #19
Originally posted by Patella:
Doesn't that mean to assume that it is a legitimate shot in terms of cheating in Photoshop (or equivalent) and not that we assume it's legitimate in terms of meeting the challenge?


Correct -- "meeting the challenge" is no longer a "rule" to be met, but a judgement made by each voter and reflected in their score...
10/29/2002 06:23:44 PM · #20
Yes, we should assume that a photo is a legal entry even if we vote to DQ it but we do not have to assume that the photographer had any clue as to how to meet the challenge.

T
10/29/2002 06:44:35 PM · #21
Boy, whenever I suggested that I as a voter can determine whether or not a photograph has met the challenge, I am shouted down, told I should assume the challenge has been met even if I cannot see it. What has changed all of a sudeen?


* This message has been edited by the author on 10/29/2002 6:42:12 PM.
10/29/2002 06:54:55 PM · #22
JAK and I appear to be doing the same thing. I have had numberous e-mailings, some explaining the illusion that I missed (for the most part, MY BAD!!), while others answered questions I had about the content. I have altered scores on some and not on others. The challenge specifically said to trick your viewers. It wouldn't be much of a trick if you could figure it out immediately, would it?

If a magician makes the dove disappear, do you stand up and ask the performer to prove the dove isn't somewhere hidden on the stage?

I am not asking everyone to just "accept" that there is an illusion present, but to give a cursory glance and walk away giving a 1 is just not acceptable to me either. {inflamitory remarks deleted by user}

Be kind to each other!
10/29/2002 07:03:12 PM · #23
I don't think anything has changed. You can certainly assume anything you want about a photo but by voting with the assumption that all photo are meeting the challenge is to allow many photos to fair better than they should. As a voter I think I have the right to decide whether or not a photo meets the challenge. Isn't that one of the things I am being asked to do, to give my opinion?

I think the best photos are the ones where the challenge is clear, do not need to be explained and are excellent photos in and of themselves. This is not to suggest that the theme be overtly obvious but it should not require a paragraph to explain it either.

T
10/29/2002 07:07:13 PM · #24
But at least when the magician makes the dove disappear you know that a dove disappeared. The illusion is clear but the method is not. There would be no point for the magician to create an illusion that nobody noticed, no matter how good it was. How could he be apprecited for that?

T
10/29/2002 07:30:54 PM · #25
Tim, I'm not trying to fight with you. Open your mind, maybe, but not fight. I have never advocated that you assume anything.

The magician example was a poor one, but it was off the cuff.

How about this? Is an illusion less valid if you cannot understand it or guess how it was done?

Once again, be kind to one another.
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