| Author | Thread |
|
|
12/11/2008 02:50:30 PM · #1 |
Originally posted by yanko:
If we were all forced to take a picture of a pencil at noon on a sunny day the only thing that would happen is we'd have a bunch of those ulgy artifact filled HDR skies resulting in poorly executed post processing (but voters love anyway) and a pencil stuck in the foreground probably as a silhouette or interacting with a kid's toy or for the arts and crafts crowd a colorful arrangement of pencils in the same patterns we've seen hundreds of times before. The more simple/colorful the entire composition is the better it would do so basically the same exact thing we get in every other challenge except a pencil is used instead of a woody or a person or whatever the challenge theme calls for. |
you should try it ;) |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 02:25:31 PM · #2 |
Originally posted by bobonacus:
If the stars moving is legal / to be made legal ... |
But moving stars (within the composition) are not allowed, and aren't going to be. That's what would create a star trail where none was before.
When a star shot is "stacked" (using a program like RegiStax) the frames are offset in position (unless you have a tracking camera) so that all the star images (or trails) stack up exactly on top of each other. Some stars which enter or leave the frame after the initial shot may be excluded from the final composite image.
The key factor in evaluating whether a composite image is "legal" under DPC's Advanced Rules is that any single one of the contributing frames should be essentially identical in composition to the final composite, except for technical aspects such as tone range, DOF, or noise. If any single frame is compositionally different from the final composite it's not legal. Clearly, a swan appearng in only one of the source frames violates this part of the rule.
Star trails can be stacked to reduce noice, but not to enhance their length so as to give the effect of a longer exposure -- that would make it a different composition than any of the source frames. |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 01:08:26 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
DPC= Depriving Photographers Creativity? seems that way sometimes. |
Constraints are a great way to enhance your creativity - the more stringent the better.
Take a picture of anything you like, any way you like, vs
Take a picture of a pencil at noon on a sunny day
See which one forces you to be more creative to make a good picture |
I agree with the first post.
For those who do have a good or decent grip on "the rules"...or photographic technique and wish to move into different zones they get locked into the most basic understanding of those parameters in the competitions. Nobody's literally being deprived of anything but many avenues of creative photography are certainly shut down or discouraged by the voters who of course, don't understand what it is they are being shown.
This placed 234 out of 501. Most or many DPCers probably would judge or credit that image with poor technique but if you asked them to recreate that shot they probably couldn't and would soon realize how hard it is to do well. Xion ans Les Goodman have offered a few like it (NOT "happy accidents) and I'd bet it's a lot harder to do than a waterdrop shot or a straightforward portrait.
The Masters Free Study with a few exceptions was an excercise in taking safe, well scoring shots. Which takes us back to the original statement...
Message edited by author 2008-12-11 13:41:10. |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 12:42:58 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
DPC= Depriving Photographers Creativity? seems that way sometimes. |
Constraints are a great way to enhance your creativity - the more stringent the better.
Take a picture of anything you like, any way you like, vs
Take a picture of a pencil at noon on a sunny day
See which one forces you to be more creative to make a good picture |
If we were all forced to take a picture of a pencil at noon on a sunny day the only thing that would happen is we'd have a bunch of those ulgy artifact filled HDR skies resulting in poorly executed post processing (but voters love anyway) and a pencil stuck in the foreground probably as a silhouette or interacting with a kid's toy or for the arts and crafts crowd a colorful arrangement of pencils in the same patterns we've seen hundreds of times before. The more simple/colorful the entire composition is the better it would do so basically the same exact thing we get in every other challenge except a pencil is used instead of a woody or a person or whatever the challenge theme calls for. |
Um, what exactly are we arguing about here?
The site just needs more frequent expert editing challenges, that's all. It doesn't need to change drastically in order to do this, and every challenge doesn't need to suddenly become a free-for-all. Having expert challenges, or "do whatever you want period" challenges aren't going to change the fact that people will still submit the same ol' stuff that will win.
Give a few more bones to the people that want to open up their world of digital manipulation, keep the main challenges the way they are for the people that enjoy that, and throw a few more bones to the people that love to basically forget photoshop exists.
How hard is that? |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 12:37:08 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
DPC= Depriving Photographers Creativity? seems that way sometimes. |
Constraints are a great way to enhance your creativity - the more stringent the better.
Take a picture of anything you like, any way you like, vs
Take a picture of a pencil at noon on a sunny day
See which one forces you to be more creative to make a good picture |
If we were all forced to take a picture of a pencil at noon on a sunny day the only thing that would happen is we'd have a bunch of those ulgy artifact filled HDR skies resulting in poorly executed post processing (but voters love anyway) and a pencil stuck in the foreground probably as a silhouette or interacting with a kid's toy or for the arts and crafts crowd a colorful arrangement of pencils in the same patterns we've seen hundreds of times before. The more simple/colorful the entire composition is the better it would do so basically the same exact thing we get in every other challenge except a pencil is used instead of a woody or a person or whatever the challenge theme calls for.
|
|
|
|
12/11/2008 11:54:32 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
Some people use photoshop to their best advantage and some do not. Some over Do it and some underdo it. The point is. The rules are in place for the very reason you mentioned so everyone can play. Thats why I suggested. Easing up on the rules and putting photographers in seperate classes based on skills in photography and editing. This way everyone can play and even better they can play with in their relm of talant.
Certain rules would still need to be in place but you could do away with alot of confusion around here, Instead of always seeking clairification lets seek simplfication. |
I think separate classes of participants would really be a poor idea. Aside from having more challenges to vote on and the clutter of more "winners" on the front page each week, there was enough hubbub surrounding the perceived elitism of the once-every-four-years Master FS, and having separate groupings I think takes away from the fun and spirit of learning.
I started off at the bottom of the heap when I joined this site over 3 years ago, and I've learned so much in that time by entering challenges and looking at other peoples' work, that I like to think I can compete for the top 10 every so often.
And moreover, it would devalue all the ribbons because winning a "beginners" or "intermediate" ribbon without the site's better talent involved just doesn't have the same magic for me. Much like how when the DPL was tiered into classes I was just bitter than I wasn't allowed to compete with the "A" team, even if i didn't have chance - that's what made things exciting. And finally the "Expert" challenges would not have enough participants if each one required multiple ribbons. |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 11:11:29 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
I totally understand that.
however I am not talking about what you photograph, where you photograph it or when. It is what you do with the photo afterwards that I am thinking about. Not everyone here has all the tech stuff down when it comes to taking the photo, lighting framing comp etc. So now you have two seperate skill levels playing under the same rules. The guys with both mad skills in taking pictures and then perfecting them in photoshop have a huge advantage over the guy who can only do one of the two good and an even larger advantage over the rookies who are just getting involved. I for one am not the greatest photographer and would like a little more room to work in photoshop to get the photo to look the way it should. I would bet many others around here would also like that.
So instead of having different classes of editing. Lets just have one set of rules for editing somewhere between advanced and expert, and have 3 sets of classes for participants. Expert Advanced and Basic.
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
DPC= Depriving Photographers Creativity? seems that way sometimes. |
Constraints are a great way to enhance your creativity - the more stringent the better.
Take a picture of anything you like, any way you like, vs
Take a picture of a pencil at noon on a sunny day
See which one forces you to be more creative to make a good picture |
|
I totally agree ! And whats wrong with making a good image even better??? I reckon even without photoshop, you'd still get all the usual suspects winning ribbons!!!
Message edited by author 2008-12-11 11:12:15. |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 11:08:18 AM · #8 |
I totally understand that.
however I am not talking about what you photograph, where you photograph it or when. It is what you do with the photo afterwards that I am thinking about. Not everyone here has all the tech stuff down when it comes to taking the photo, lighting framing comp etc. So now you have two seperate skill levels playing under the same rules. The guys with both mad skills in taking pictures and then perfecting them in photoshop have a huge advantage over the guy who can only do one of the two good and an even larger advantage over the rookies who are just getting involved. I for one am not the greatest photographer and would like a little more room to work in photoshop to get the photo to look the way it should. I would bet many others around here would also like that.
So instead of having different classes of editing. Lets just have one set of rules for editing somewhere between advanced and expert, and have 3 sets of classes for participants. Expert Advanced and Basic.
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
DPC= Depriving Photographers Creativity? seems that way sometimes. |
Constraints are a great way to enhance your creativity - the more stringent the better.
Take a picture of anything you like, any way you like, vs
Take a picture of a pencil at noon on a sunny day
See which one forces you to be more creative to make a good picture |
|
|
|
|
12/11/2008 11:06:22 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by bobonacus:
The idea is good photography but allowing relatively minor enhancements in the digital dark room. It also allows people who have a $100 camera and $10 software to compete |
I can understand your thinking of making everybody equal to some respect, but by placing shackles on people and restricting their creative freedom, you're only going to drive people away! Is that what we really want on dpc?! |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 11:05:34 AM · #10 |
re: my earlier comment. ignore it. i was doing two or three different things at the time and was completely in left field about what i was answering. i read the question and was thinking of something totally different.
it may have been clarified by now, though, so just ignore me. |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 10:57:50 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
DPC= Depriving Photographers Creativity? seems that way sometimes. |
Constraints are a great way to enhance your creativity - the more stringent the better.
Take a picture of anything you like, any way you like, vs
Take a picture of a pencil at noon on a sunny day
See which one forces you to be more creative to make a good picture |
I think you are absolutely right...the rules make me work harder at being more creative...not sure everyone sees it that way though |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 10:55:27 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
DPC= Depriving Photographers Creativity? seems that way sometimes. |
Constraints are a great way to enhance your creativity - the more stringent the better.
Take a picture of anything you like, any way you like, vs
Take a picture of a pencil at noon on a sunny day
See which one forces you to be more creative to make a good picture |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 10:55:18 AM · #13 |
lol how about both?
Originally posted by scalvert:
I'd settle for aspirin. |
|
|
|
|
12/11/2008 10:53:18 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by JulietNN:
Hey  scalvert you have been in most of the threads recently. Should we all be chipping in to buy you a case of Whiskey for the stress!!! |
I'd settle for aspirin. |
You're doing a great job Shannon...I think you have handled these last few days brilliantly well. Asprin is on the way... |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 10:52:16 AM · #15 |
No worries, Truth is, I love photoshop and would love to exploit all of its neat little features.
Originally posted by Caravela:
I appologise Brian, I thought you were bashing photoshop and wanted to take us back to the middle ages! lol. |
|
|
|
|
12/11/2008 10:45:09 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by JulietNN:
Hey scalvert you have been in most of the threads recently. Should we all be chipping in to buy you a case of Whiskey for the stress!!! |
I'd settle for aspirin. |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 10:43:50 AM · #17 |
I appologise Brian, I thought you were bashing photoshop and wanted to take us back to the middle ages! lol.
|
|
|
|
12/11/2008 10:25:17 AM · #18 |
I agree and disagree, When you look at how many photos on this site get overprocessed and make it into the top 10 images in a challenge. Subtle change is one thing Oversaturation and Excessive Neatimage etc... That is not subtle.
Some people use photoshop to their best advantage and some do not. Some over Do it and some underdo it. The point is. The rules are in place for the very reason you mentioned so everyone can play. Thats why I suggested. Easing up on the rules and putting photographers in seperate classes based on skills in photography and editing. This way everyone can play and even better they can play with in their relm of talant.
Certain rules would still need to be in place but you could do away with alot of confusion around here, Instead of always seeking clairification lets seek simplfication.
|
|
|
|
12/11/2008 10:14:19 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
I wasnt saying to get rid of photoshop. I am saying get rid of all the extra rules and regulations partaining to what you may and may not do with photoshop. I know the rules are in place to make the field level for play and I realize the rules help those who do not have the major PS skills, However I hate the idea of people spending 1000s of dollars on cameras and 100's on software then having a ton of restrictions as to what you can do and not do with it.
DPC= Depriving Photographers Creativity? seems that way sometimes.
|
But, this site is a digital photography site, not a digital photography editing site
The idea is good photography but allowing relatively minor enhancements in the digital dark room. It also allows people who have a $100 camera and $10 software to compete |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 10:10:47 AM · #20 |
| Hey scalvert you have been in most of the threads recently. Should we all be chipping in to buy you a case of Whiskey for the stress!!! |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 10:02:33 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by MattO:
Originally posted by bobonacus:
Originally posted by Jac:
Your shot is made up of 9 images of star trails plus 1 image of star trails AND s swan. Do you see the problem? It has nothing to do with stars! |
but, playing devils advocate, what is the difference between that and shooting 10 exposures of a person who moves around between shots? The stars are moving due to the rotation of the earth, but they are still moving between captures. |
Because different compositions within the frame are not allowed. Meaning nothing can change. Although in the case of the others until you see the original we dont know if the swan was always there and just in the shadows and not exposed.
Matt |
Sorry, that's what I meant. Surely using the 9 images of the starts, which have moved between each shot is no different from the swan being on one shot. Just because the stars are moving slowly (from the camera's point of view!) they are still moving. If the stars moving is legal then, imho, the swan should also be legal.
If the stars moving is legal / to be made legal maybe some extra wording is required as Jovan said :
If some elements move from frame to frame during the 10 exposures BUT the scene doesn't looking any different than it would from a long exposure, then it should be legal.
Then it could be use to reduce noise / ambient light etc |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 09:58:36 AM · #22 |
I wasnt saying to get rid of photoshop. I am saying get rid of all the extra rules and regulations partaining to what you may and may not do with photoshop. I know the rules are in place to make the field level for play and I realize the rules help those who do not have the major PS skills, However I hate the idea of people spending 1000s of dollars on cameras and 100's on software then having a ton of restrictions as to what you can do and not do with it.
DPC= Depriving Photographers Creativity? seems that way sometimes.
Originally posted by Caravela:
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
Time for a major change at DPC, get back to the basics of photography and forget about the photoshop aspect of it. |
When will people realise photoshop is now part of digital photography??? Since when do we decide to build a three wheel car, when four wheels is clearly better!!! Everything else evolves, why should photography remain in the dark ages!!! |
|
|
|
|
12/11/2008 09:44:40 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by Caravela:
When will people realise photoshop is now part of digital photography??? |
Um... isn't Photoshop already allowed? The issue is composite images. Is that something we really want in every challenge? |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 09:43:18 AM · #24 |
Amen brother, amen...
It just baffles my mind why this is so difficult to understand! The rules are simple and I'm sure everyone has good enough judgement to understand what's right and what's not. Why bother arguing it to death?
Sheesh! :) |
|
|
|
12/11/2008 09:41:34 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
Time for a major change at DPC, get back to the basics of photography and forget about the photoshop aspect of it. |
When will people realise photoshop is now part of digital photography??? Since when do we decide to build a three wheel car, when four wheels is clearly better!!! Everything else evolves, why should photography remain in the dark ages!!! |
|
Home -
Challenges -
Community -
League -
Photos -
Cameras -
Lenses -
Learn -
Prints! -
Help -
Terms of Use -
Privacy -
Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2024 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 04/29/2024 01:06:38 AM EDT.
