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11/10/2004 11:29:17 AM · #1 |
@ EddyG as long as it's in addition to the existing comment box that's a good ideea else if there were only the checkbox list everything will become to rigid and robotic and I wouldn't like that. Ofcourse adding checkboxes to existing system wold be a good ideea. Also I think that the checkbox list could be replacing the voting system instead of the comment system. That way those who vote 1,2,3 to an image will have to check atleast some boxes (or uncheck) so we know what they had in mind, and they won't be able to vote an image 1 just because they don't like baby's or cats or whatever, regardless of how good the photo is. How about that?
@ emorgan49, and I'm verry sure you are not alone there, I think many people quit commenting because of that, I even considered it myself a few times, then I thought it doesn't worth, most people are not like that and they don't deserve being punished just because others are morons.
@ Blackdog, those images you posted there are not that bad if no comment whas checked as helpful, maybe they just ignore that feature for whatever reason. But there are tons of picture where they only check as helpful laudative comments, any negative no matter how constructive they are is unhelpful. Such images are better example for what you are saying. Wich is corect. Wich is why I started this, some people maybe don't want comment's why not give them the option to not get any?
But how about adding thsese things to the site rules "Please respect the anonimity on this site and don't unreveal it while you are in a challenge or you will be DQ'd"
When I had exams in school and they were anonymous, if I ever suggested my name and my paper tgo a member of the jury it would resulted in me getting expelled from school. Why can't it be so here too? Why are there no rules regarding this?
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11/10/2004 10:27:54 AM · #2 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Less than 2 years ago. ty EddyG. 241 in favor of anonymous to 203 against. Not a real close outcome. What was the reasoning for not remaining with anonymous comments during voting? |
Given that DPC started in January 2002, percentage wise, it is a pretty crusty poll. The user base has grown a lot since then.
In terms of why it was changed, I'll have to defer to the more "senior" members of the SC; I'm the "newest" SC member in terms of registration date (didn't start participating here until June of 2003), so a lot of this stuff has "always been that way" from my point of view. =] |
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11/10/2004 10:05:29 AM · #3 |
| There are points against and in favor of PMs of explanation. But I, for one of many, stopped commenting for a long while because I got tired for the negative comments to my comments. If your (you = negative PMers) actions result in a decrease in overall comments, is that what you really want? |
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11/10/2004 10:04:14 AM · #4 |
| Less than 2 years ago. ty EddyG. 241 in favor of anonymous to 203 against. Not a real close outcome. What was the reasoning for not remaining with anonymous comments during voting? |
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11/10/2004 09:59:11 AM · #5 |
I've just been checking some of the comments I've made while voting in the challenges. I'm suprised and disappointed at the number of comments I've made that the photographer didn't find useful.
This seems to have nothing to do with the particular comment I made but rather the entire list of comments made by everyone for that shot. None of them have been ticked as being useful?
I can't believe that the photographer couldn't find one single comment that was of some use.
For example,
  
There are others, why would they not acknowledge the comments?
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11/10/2004 09:46:13 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
I didn't know about that poll. Thanks for finding it smoke. Is there any way to find out when it was taken? |
Doesn't appear there is for regular users. I checked, and it was December 2002. |
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11/10/2004 09:41:14 AM · #7 |
I would also like to say that the use of the checkboxes would suit a lot of people. There tends to be a lot of comments like "Great Shot" or "Amazing image". To me these type of thing are a waste of time, they tell you nothing about the viewers thoughts or how the image could be improved. The checkbox system I think would appeal to those people who leave short non critique comments.
But the free text area must also remain for those who prefer to leave a full explanation for their vote.
I think anonymous comment until the voting is complete would be a good idea, with instruction to the voters not to sign the comments.
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11/10/2004 09:41:04 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by smokeditor:
What I dont understand is why comments are not anoymnous during the voting period.
I looked back at old polls and found one that was related to this.
//www.dpchallenge.com/poll_results.php?POLL_ID=16
And it seemed that most people wanted anonymous comments, why didnt this happen? I would probably leave more constructive comments if this were to happen. |
I didn't know about that poll. Thanks for finding it smoke. Is there any way to find out when it was taken? |
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11/10/2004 09:34:28 AM · #9 |
I've said it before and I'll say it again the people who will benefit most from constructive comments are those like myself. We inhabit the mid range area of most challenges, (I'd like to think).
To date I've posted 247 comments of which 194 were ticked as useful. Not a great amount I know but I try to comment as much as I can.
I have received PM's about the comments and every single one of them has been positive, thanking me for the time and trouble I've taken.
Now that might be due to the fact I now only comment on those I vote 6's and 7's for. I think these people, (like me) have a bit to learn yet and will appreciate the trouble you go to more than those 'higher up the tree'.
I too was unhappy at receiving PM's while the challenge is still going on. But in fairness those who did so did'nt reveal their photo, or try to identify it to me. There were just general comments like "Thanks for your critique of my entry, I really appreciate it" etc. etc.
Take my advice frumoaznicul, comment on the mid range, (unless you have the time to comment on all shots in the challenge), and you will be pleased at the results.
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11/10/2004 09:11:21 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
... "feedback checkboxes" ... set up such that you couldn't select something like both "underexposed" and "overexposed"... |
I had to laugh here. Someone left a comment to my Miniature entry that the photo was both underexposed AND overexposed! It was an accurate and useful assessment.
I don't particularly care for the idea of feedback checkboxes, mostly because there are just so many possibilities. But I'd love to see some variation on the original suggestion: some way for photographers to indicate what kind of feedback they are interested in. My entries tend to get rather average scores, but most of the comments tend to be from people who liked the photo. I'd really like some constructive negative comments, but people are reluctant to give them for the reasons stated in this thread. I wish there was some way to let people know during voting that I value their honest opinion, good or bad. |
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11/10/2004 08:54:58 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Cristi:
What you've experienced is exactly the reason why I don't leave comments.
It is unfortunate that people come to a site like DPC and can't take constructive criticism. You have to "sugar coat" any kind of negative comment you make and surround it with praise about other things or you get the rude PM's.
Originally on DPC, comments were anonymous until the voting was completed (which is why if you read comments on some of the earlier challenges, you'll see people "sign" the comments with their name.) Too many people complained, and it was changed to the way it is now.
One thing that has been proposed in the past and that I support would be anonymous "feedback checkboxes", divided into "positives" and "negatives". These would be short, fairly generic terms that you could check before assigning your score, and set up such that you couldn't select something like both "underexposed" and "overexposed". This feedback would be in addition to the existing "optional comment" infrastructure, not a replacement. A simple example off the top of my head:
Click the checkboxes that you feel are appropriate for this photo:
[_] Out of focus
[_] Oversharpened
[_] Underexposed / Too dark
[_] Overexposed / Too light
[_] Unappealing subject matter
[_] Interesting subject matter
[_] Distracting border
[_] Good use of depth-of-field
[_] Would prefer more depth-of-field
[_] Would prefer less depth-of-field
etc.
These would simply be counted, and available at the end of the challenge when viewing the results as a "percentage":
220 users ranked your image. 15 users left a comment. 90 users left feedback:
50% (45/90) Interesting subject matter
29% (26/90) Distracting border
etc.
In the past, people have said that they would much rather receive "individual comments", but personally, I would be much more apt to provide "constructive criticsim" by clicking some boxes since I wouldn't be told that I don't know what I'm talking about, etc. in a PM.
One big problem is coming up with the list of "checkbox feedback" items. That in and of itself would be a big debate, and there would likely be constant comments about the need for "this checkbox" or rewording "that checkbox", etc.
Of course, D&L and the userbase would have to like the idea. It is a major change and would require some pretty involved coding and a lot of additional data storage for each challenge entry/vote. So although anything is possible, I don't see the above as necessarily being very probable. |
EddieG,
I think that would be a great idea and I believe the photographer of the picture could look at it and say well 60% of the people said it was underexposed and he/she could work on that. I have to agree the majority of the DPC’ers leave great comments but this would help them do it in a more technical manner that I think the photographer can understand.
I know, like you said, it would be very involved to do this and D&L would have to approve, but I think you are on to something.
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11/10/2004 08:54:40 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
...when they upoload photos so they can check on something like "I don't want any critique, my work is always perfect, I'm just doing you a favor by showing it".
I say some people don't deserve comments... |
I also like this idea
Edit:
But I doubt anybody will check that checkbox :)
Message edited by author 2004-11-10 08:55:54.
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11/10/2004 08:54:05 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Click the checkboxes that you feel are appropriate for this photo:
[_] Out of focus
[_] Oversharpened
[_] Underexposed / Too dark
[_] Overexposed / Too light
[_] Unappealing subject matter
[_] Interesting subject matter
[_] Distracting border
[_] Good use of depth-of-field
[_] Would prefer more depth-of-field
[_] Would prefer less depth-of-field
etc.
These would simply be counted, and available at the end of the challenge when viewing the results as a "percentage":
220 users ranked your image. 15 users left a comment. 90 users left feedback:
50% (45/90) Interesting subject matter
29% (26/90) Distracting border
etc.
Of course, D&L and the userbase would have to like the idea. It is a major change and would require some pretty involved coding and a lot of additional data storage for each challenge entry/vote. So although anything is possible, I don't see the above as necessarily being very probable. |
I like this idea, even though I also doubt I'll be implemented b/c of dataspace limitations.
I think this could do with a thread of it's own
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11/10/2004 08:39:41 AM · #14 |
After leaving some constructive comments I too got some very angry emails from people telling me that my opinion was wrong.
So now that is the main reason I do not give constructive comments any longer. I limit my comments to shots I like and give mostly positive feedback.
What I dont understand is why comments are not anoymnous during the voting period.
I looked back at old polls and found one that was related to this.
//www.dpchallenge.com/poll_results.php?POLL_ID=16
And it seemed that most people wanted anonymous comments, why didnt this happen? I would probably leave more constructive comments if this were to happen. |
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11/10/2004 08:33:31 AM · #15 |
Cristi:
What you've experienced is exactly the reason why I don't leave comments.
It is unfortunate that people come to a site like DPC and can't take constructive criticism. You have to "sugar coat" any kind of negative comment you make and surround it with praise about other things or you get the rude PM's.
Originally on DPC, comments were anonymous until the voting was completed (which is why if you read comments on some of the earlier challenges, you'll see people "sign" the comments with their name.) Too many people complained, and it was changed to the way it is now.
One thing that has been proposed in the past and that I support would be anonymous "feedback checkboxes", divided into "positives" and "negatives". These would be short, fairly generic terms that you could check before assigning your score, and set up such that you couldn't select something like both "underexposed" and "overexposed". This feedback would be in addition to the existing "optional comment" infrastructure, not a replacement. A simple example off the top of my head:
Click the checkboxes that you feel are appropriate for this photo:
[_] Out of focus
[_] Oversharpened
[_] Underexposed / Too dark
[_] Overexposed / Too light
[_] Unappealing subject matter
[_] Interesting subject matter
[_] Distracting border
[_] Good use of depth-of-field
[_] Would prefer more depth-of-field
[_] Would prefer less depth-of-field
etc.
These would simply be counted, and available at the end of the challenge when viewing the results as a "percentage":
220 users ranked your image. 15 users left a comment. 90 users left feedback:
50% (45/90) Interesting subject matter
29% (26/90) Distracting border
etc.
In the past, people have said that they would much rather receive "individual comments", but personally, I would be much more apt to provide "constructive criticsim" by clicking some boxes since I wouldn't be told that I don't know what I'm talking about, etc. in a PM.
One big problem is coming up with the list of "checkbox feedback" items. That in and of itself would be a big debate, and there would likely be constant comments about the need for "this checkbox" or rewording "that checkbox", etc.
Of course, D&L and the userbase would have to like the idea. It is a major change and would require some pretty involved coding and a lot of additional data storage for each challenge entry/vote. So although anything is possible, I don't see the above as necessarily being very probable.
Message edited by author 2004-11-10 08:39:37. |
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11/10/2004 07:59:39 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by urmig:
I have a suggestion, make the comments anonymous until the voting is over and then pm replies are impossible... |
There are a lot of ideas/suggestions about improvements for the site and the voting system being discussed in some very long threads right now. This is by far the best on them. Easily implemented, little if any downside, and would protect anonymity while reducing disagreements and hard feelings. |
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11/10/2004 07:47:54 AM · #17 |
| I have a suggestion, make the comments anonymous until the voting is over and then pm replies are impossible... |
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11/10/2004 02:55:19 AM · #18 |
I am not concerned, I am just disgusted with the total lack of respect for my time lost on evaluating and commenting that image, trying to constructively suggest faults in it. As much as with a lame attempt to motivate the image with words... Everyone should leave voters alone and discuss after challenge, IMHO, or take the hell away the anonimity. If that ever happens I'm gone from here for ever, because that's one of the strongest features on this site I belive... Again the voters should judge you based on your image and that alone, and not based on your explanations or who you are or what's your past achievments or reputation or whatever.
On the other hand the issue you raised about your image is I belive legitimate too and I agree with you but there can be other solutions for that, like lets say allowing us to add text that is visible during challenge but where we are only allowed to write tehnical explanations, and nothing else. I think something like that would be great. Belive me that would also work alot better than PM replies.
Message edited by author 2004-11-10 02:56:54.
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11/10/2004 02:34:50 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
but do you really think you can cahnge anything by 2-3 replies on about 200 votes? |
So why are you so concerned about it if it doesn't change anything ?
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11/10/2004 02:17:12 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Would you be PO'd if the comment read
"I'm sorry, I might be missing something, but I don't quite get how your comment relates to my photo" or something like that?
Also, remember that your comments are your opinion and that, while you are 100% entitled to it, everyone else is entitled to their opinion of your opinion too. That you don't agree with it doesn't make the person a bad person ... |
Why is there an anonimty on the site then? I agree with you anyone can reply but why not after challenge? And belive me my comment is clear readable and constructive, not an insult or anything like that.
Besides if in life you go to a real contest of anything and whenever you feel like without being asked you go to the jury trying to motivate stuff you will be most probably disqualified from the contest.
My comments are my opinions, I don't own the absolute truth, if many other commenters don't get your image you may ask yourself some questions, if it's only me could mean I can't connect to your message for whatever reason, 1 vote and 1 comment in 200 average doesn't matter anyways. If you want to discuss it with me do it after the challenge is over for the sake of fairness. But even if you can't do any of these and you still feel like replying don't reply to a perfectly constructive opinion with " Some people comments just come way out from left field, and this was one of them." just because you disagree. Have a bit of respect for me and my time spent on commenting your image for god's sake. This is what I'm trying to say.
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11/10/2004 02:10:08 AM · #21 |
frumoaznicul, I see on your profile page you took the advice I offered earlier in this tread. I hope it helps you.
My I offer you a suggestion that may stop or deter someone from PM’ing you on a comment. In the very first line of your bio in bold writing state that you do not want anyone to PM you about a comment you have made and if they do so they will receive a 1. I’m not say I agree or disagree with what you have decided to do, but it is your right.
I don’t believe people should PM a commenter during a challenge because;
1. It identifies the photographer.
2. And the most important thing is that I may stop someone from commenting because of the PM’s they receive and I believe comments are very helpful when give in a constructive manner.
Message edited by author 2004-11-10 02:11:00. |
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11/10/2004 02:09:22 AM · #22 |
Would you be PO'd if the comment read
"I'm sorry, I might be missing something, but I don't quite get how your comment relates to my photo" or something like that?
Also, remember that your comments are your opinion and that, while you are 100% entitled to it, everyone else is entitled to their opinion of your opinion too. That you don't agree with it doesn't make the person a bad person ... and it certainly doesn't make their photo a bad photo.
In fact, voting a photo down because of a comment someone made just might violate the site TOS ... I'd have to think about that some more.
Message edited by author 2004-11-10 02:11:45. |
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11/10/2004 02:07:45 AM · #23 |
I got plenty of those on this image:
I also edited it alot less then many thought, the edit could almost be good for basic editing, but I didn't replied to none of those. Usualy I don't talk to paranoid people whatever theyr paranoya is. On this site there is a living epidemy of "anti photoshop" paranoya and I am aware by replying to one or 2 comments while 100 others just vote and don't comment is useless. So I didn't bother, I just posted the making of in the forums after challenge. Probably mine whas a bit edited and yours whasn't at all but do you really think you can cahnge anything by 2-3 replies on about 200 votes?
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11/10/2004 01:59:52 AM · #24 |
So if I enter an image, without any use of photoshop filters or layers and get comments to the effect of 'I'm marking you down for using too many filters' I should, or shouldn't PM a reply.
Sure, it is the person's 'opinion' but if the express it to show that they have made a series of mistaken assumptions - should it just be ignored ?
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11/10/2004 01:49:04 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Cristi,
Having received a few of those types of PM's myself, I certainly appreciate your frustration. That said, I don't think your idea of downvoting entries where the photographer replied to your comment is a good one -- it is, in fact, expressly brohibited by the rules.
Your vote should be based upon the content of the photograph, and that's it.
-Terry |
Hmmmmm ok I thought I can vote based on persons and characters too if they willingly unreveal themselves but if those are the rules, I gave him back his 5... same to me.
Can I leave the threat that I will give them a 1 if they PM me on my bio? I really wanna scare them away... I promisse not to act on it tho.
Message edited by author 2004-11-10 01:52:14.
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