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08/26/2009 08:04:35 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
When the great, enduring public figure drank too much, drove a 21 year old off a bridge, left her to drown, went back to the comfort of his friends, slept off his alcohol and then called the police 10 hours later...then the public figure is fair game for any and ALL opinions.
If you would like to overlook Mary Jo, that is fine - but please don't say it is sickening to bring it up.
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What's sickening is to focus on one tragic accident and his poor decision making in its aftermath. He took responsibility for his actions and has obviously suffered the consequences, politically at least.
Or another way is to look at his political accomplishments, all of which required bipartisan support,
Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, the National Cancer Act of 1971, the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act of 1986, the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, the Ryan White AIDS Care Act in 1990, the Civil Rights Act of 1991, the Mental Health Parity Act in 1996 and 2008, the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, the No Child Left Behind Act in 2002.
Or you can look at his work on the conflict in Northern Ireland, his Knighthood by Queen Elizabeth, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, his advocacy for minority groups regarding racial justice; women̢۪s reproductive rights; gender equality; age discrimination; prejudice against immigrants; bigotry against gays and lesbians; and civil rights.
Constantly bringing up the tragedy of Mary Jo Kopechne and Chappaquiddick says more about you and your ilk and your asinine attempt at personal destruction and dishonors the memory of Mary Jo.
Shame, indeed. |
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08/26/2009 08:07:26 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
When the great, enduring public figure drank too much, drove a 21 year old off a bridge, left her to drown, went back to the comfort of his friends, slept off his alcohol and then called the police 10 hours later...then the public figure is fair game for any and ALL opinions.
If you would like to overlook Mary Jo, that is fine - but please don't say it is sickening to bring it up.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Traditionally, when great, enduring public figures die, they are given the respect they have earned by friend and foe alike. The tone of some of these posts is sickening to me. There's a time for that crap (say, a couple weeks after the funeral and onward?) but it sure as hell ain't now. Shame!
R. |
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Bear is referring to your timing I feel. (I'm not singling you out here, as there are other posters who have expressed the same sentiments) The man has not been dead 24 hours yet. Let's be a little respectful.
Edward Kennedy signed 300 bills into law over a 47-year period as a senator. It's probably no exaggeration to say these have affected every man, woman and child in America to some extent, as well as many beyond your shores. (whether this was for good is all down to your perspective)
Whether you agree with him and his politics or not (speaking personally as someone who agreed with him on a lot of things and disagreed with him on a fair few others), I think that will ultimately be the defining feature of his life far more than the events of one night 40 years ago, however stupid or reckless his behaviour may have been at the time.
Let's acknowledge what happened at Chappaquiddick, but not let it overshadow his work.
And whoever used the word "murderer" - wrong, wrong, wrong. |
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08/26/2009 08:09:27 PM · #28 |
Shame = Driving young lady into water - leaving her to drown - getting away with it.
You can sing the praise of the great Kennedy all you want. It doesn't change the fact of what happened at Chappaquiddick.
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by kenskid:
When the great, enduring public figure drank too much, drove a 21 year old off a bridge, left her to drown, went back to the comfort of his friends, slept off his alcohol and then called the police 10 hours later...then the public figure is fair game for any and ALL opinions.
If you would like to overlook Mary Jo, that is fine - but please don't say it is sickening to bring it up.
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What's sickening is to focus on one tragic accident and his poor decision making in its aftermath. He took responsibility for his actions and has obviously suffered the consequences, politically at least.
Or another way is to look at his political accomplishments, all of which required bipartisan support,
Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, the National Cancer Act of 1971, the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act of 1986, the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, the Ryan White AIDS Care Act in 1990, the Civil Rights Act of 1991, the Mental Health Parity Act in 1996 and 2008, the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, the No Child Left Behind Act in 2002.
Or you can look at his work on the conflict in Northern Ireland, his Knighthood by Queen Elizabeth, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, his advocacy for minority groups regarding racial justice; women̢۪s reproductive rights; gender equality; age discrimination; prejudice against immigrants; bigotry against gays and lesbians; and civil rights.
Constantly bringing up the tragedy of Mary Jo Kopechne and Chappaquiddick says more about you and your ilk and your asinine attempt at personal destruction and dishonors the memory of Mary Jo.
Shame, indeed. |
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08/26/2009 08:14:57 PM · #29 |
Ok...this is my last post. You can bust me up now...BUT to say "let's not let it (Chappaquiddick) overshadow his work" is in very bad taste IMO to Mary Jo. But if that's how you feel then so be it.
I may start a bash Ted thread later though.
Originally posted by SoulMan1978:
Originally posted by kenskid:
When the great, enduring public figure drank too much, drove a 21 year old off a bridge, left her to drown, went back to the comfort of his friends, slept off his alcohol and then called the police 10 hours later...then the public figure is fair game for any and ALL opinions.
If you would like to overlook Mary Jo, that is fine - but please don't say it is sickening to bring it up.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Traditionally, when great, enduring public figures die, they are given the respect they have earned by friend and foe alike. The tone of some of these posts is sickening to me. There's a time for that crap (say, a couple weeks after the funeral and onward?) but it sure as hell ain't now. Shame!
R. |
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Bear is referring to your timing I feel. (I'm not singling you out here, as there are other posters who have expressed the same sentiments) The man has not been dead 24 hours yet. Let's be a little respectful.
Edward Kennedy signed 300 bills into law over a 47-year period as a senator. It's probably no exaggeration to say these have affected every man, woman and child in America to some extent, as well as many beyond your shores. (whether this was for good is all down to your perspective)
Whether you agree with him and his politics or not (speaking personally as someone who agreed with him on a lot of things and disagreed with him on a fair few others), I think that will ultimately be the defining feature of his life far more than the events of one night 40 years ago, however stupid or reckless his behaviour may have been at the time.
Let's acknowledge what happened at Chappaquiddick, but not let it overshadow his work.
And whoever used the word "murderer" - wrong, wrong, wrong. |
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08/26/2009 08:16:51 PM · #30 |
| ...some people are unbelieveable. |
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08/26/2009 08:23:04 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Ok...this is my last post. You can bust me up now...BUT to say "let's not let it (Chappaquiddick) overshadow his work" is in very bad taste IMO to Mary Jo. But if that's how you feel then so be it.
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I'm not intending to disrespect Mary Jo - I'm just making the point that there are many facets to EK - some good, some bad. You have to take the good with the bad in all people. The tone of some posters in this thread seems to imply however that just, because of Chappaquidick, everything else in his career counts for nothing. I can't agree with that, whether you like or loathe his politics and policies. |
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08/26/2009 08:29:03 PM · #32 |
It's all about timing. 3,6,12 months from now, when his name is mentioned, I'd fully expect Chappaquidick to be brought up.
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08/26/2009 09:03:35 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Shame = Driving young lady into water - leaving her to drown - getting away with it.
You can sing the praise of the great Kennedy all you want. It doesn't change the fact of what happened at Chappaquiddick.
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And everyone knows you don't give a damn about Mary Jo. You only use her to attack Kennedy. If that isn't a dishonor to her memory, I don't know what is.
Message edited by author 2009-08-26 21:03:54. |
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08/26/2009 09:23:43 PM · #34 |
You know, I started this thread and titled it purposefully. I know a lot of New England is different in their dialect,in fact everywhere (what am I thinking) but the title is really meant in an affectionate sort of way. Around the Western side of the state he was referred to as Teddy. And when you mentioned Teddy in conversation, obviously political conversation, it was assumed you were referring to him.
I remember 'the incident' very well and the impact it had as well as the outcome and consequences. All I have to say is that if all you can think of is that one incident then you have not paid attention. Like him or not, like his politics or not, agree with him or not, there was a lot of good intention and genuine concern for the well being of the Nation as a whole and not just parts of it. Sure he made a mistake and paid a heavy price for it. Do we all like the final outcome of that? NO! But do we condemn a lifetime dedicated to public service because of it? His accomplishments have been outlined in previous posts. Did any of that have an impact on your life? I am sure it has.
How many of you that are speaking out against TK are sports fans? If I have to go into details I can, but think about it.
EDIT: Hypothetical...'He/She may have been a great photographer, but he/she will always be remembered for the time he/she did...' and think about it. In your life what would you NOT want to be added to that sentence?
Message edited by author 2009-08-26 21:32:18. |
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08/26/2009 09:26:02 PM · #35 |
You want to know what's a freakin' shame?
The absolute disgraceful slap in the face that the whole way the Chappaquiddick incident went down and was handled.
TEN HOURS LATER the police find out about this?????
He's surrounded by his family and lawyers when the deed is brought to light?
He's given a suspended sentence?
He continues down a path of womanizing and drunkenness for another decade and a half or so, and that's okay too?
You guys want to put a moratorium on something, how about y'all who are saying "Don't pick on ol' Ted" go tell it to the Kapechne family.
The LEAST he could do is to spend the rest of his life trying to make up for it, and he stioll acted like a freakin' Kennedy for the next fifteen years.
You people who want to be so forgiving about this crap ought to really think about the families whose lives get ruined by people like this.
Let's talk about his stellar behavior during his first marriage to Joan......you know, the woman he was married to and was in the car with him......oh wait!
He was a drunken, philandering bum for all too many years; that whole "One incident" garbage certainly will NOT fly.
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08/26/2009 10:31:42 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
You want to know what's a freakin' shame?
The absolute disgraceful slap in the face that the whole way the Chappaquiddick incident went down and was handled.
TEN HOURS LATER the police find out about this?????
He's surrounded by his family and lawyers when the deed is brought to light?
He's given a suspended sentence?
He continues down a path of womanizing and drunkenness for another decade and a half or so, and that's okay too?
You guys want to put a moratorium on something, how about y'all who are saying "Don't pick on ol' Ted" go tell it to the Kapechne family.
The LEAST he could do is to spend the rest of his life trying to make up for it, and he stioll acted like a freakin' Kennedy for the next fifteen years.
You people who want to be so forgiving about this crap ought to really think about the families whose lives get ruined by people like this.
Let's talk about his stellar behavior during his first marriage to Joan......you know, the woman he was married to and was in the car with him......oh wait!
He was a drunken, philandering bum for all too many years; that whole "One incident" garbage certainly will NOT fly. |
Everyone gets what they deserve, maybe not in this life but it'll eventually come around to haunt them. Whether that happens to Ted is not for us to judge. That's what keeps me going through a world that at times can seem so bad. I do agree with you mostly and I think the same thing happened with Michael Jackson. IMO.
Message edited by author 2009-08-26 22:33:40. |
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08/26/2009 10:58:49 PM · #37 |
I gotta admit, I'm with the haters on this one. I mean, does a lifetime of service to one's country undo the Chappaquiddick incident??? Sadly, it does not to me. It should be brought up because at the end of the day, what you do in your life is your legacy... Good or bad... Did we all talk about what a people person John Wayne Gacy was when he died? or did we remember him for the atrocities which he committed???
Okay, I get it, comparing Ted Kennedy to a serial killer is a stretch, but that isn't the direct comparision I'm making. What I am saying is, ultimately, what a person does in their life, and how they act, is carried with them in death. Ted Kennedy did allot of great things for this country, but he also had his demons. Let us remember everything he did, as for the judgment, well, that is reserved for whatever you choose to believe. I am an agnostic, so I really don't believe in anything, and that sucks because I love vengeance...LOL... I would like to add though, that simply stating facts about a man's life, is not judging him. I believe it was said best in the movie Gladiator, "What we do in life, echoes in eternity..."
Message edited by author 2009-08-26 23:00:56. |
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08/26/2009 11:43:06 PM · #38 |
Ok, not exactly apples to apples...but
Do all of you condone former VP Cheney's not reporting his shooting someone in the face until many hours later ok? There is not one public person that has lived a 100% perfect life, but if we never focus on the good, only the bad for whatever purpose we become bitter, cranky, complainers and people get tired of the "glass half empty" folks. On that note, I'm tired and going to bed. Night all... |
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08/27/2009 04:52:57 AM · #39 |
I won't comment on the accident he had because it was a little bit before my time. But I can say that Ted along with the rest of the Family have given alot to the community I grew up in. Their Sister Rose was in a Home in Jefferson County Wisconsin (my place of birth and county of residence for 40 years) The entire family donated Millions of dollars to the home and surrounding community over the years that she stayed there and did alot of great things for the people who lived at the Complex that she stayed at. They were always kind to the staff and treated everyone there like family. What he did on the political end of the spectrum was not always in everyones favor but I believe he always did what he felt was best for the people. Which is a good thing no matter if you were for or against what he stood for.
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08/27/2009 06:34:02 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by bergiekat:
Do all of you condone former VP Cheney's not reporting his shooting someone in the face until many hours later ok? |
Why on earth *would* anyone condone that?
Originally posted by bergiekat:
There is not one public person that has lived a 100% perfect life, but if we never focus on the good, only the bad for whatever purpose we become bitter, cranky, complainers and people get tired of the "glass half empty" folks. |
Look, I'm not saying that the man didn't do a lot of good, he most certainly did. I just object to the skewed sense of rerality put forth in not remembering that this man did a fair amount of damage in life as well.
The Chappaquiddick thing may have just been a horrible accident, but since he ran, and tried to cover it up, we'll never really know, will we?
And that's my point......a good and decent person doesn't do that.
He also flagrantly flouted the basics of good behavior in his affairs and personal habits with his alcoholism and many affairs. Yes, it's "just one of those things" that people do, and they shouldn't be crucified for it, but I have this issue with that kind of thing on both sides.
You *DON'T* cheat on your wife, and it *IS* a statement on your basic integrity.
He was also expelled from Harvard for cheating......this isn't a man whose otherwise sterling character was sullied by one lone incident, this is someone who established a history of bad behaviors who really only changed his ways later on in life.
Yes, we'd be remiss if we did not recognize that he did change, and did accomplish much good in those later years, but to elevate this man to the status of great statesman based on a late life turnaround does a disservice to the great statesmen who didn't have to overcome a lifetime of bad behaviors first.
Oh......and to return to Cheney.....he *did* shoot a lawyer, right?.......8>)
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08/27/2009 08:55:20 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by bergiekat:
Ok, not exactly apples to apples...but
Do all of you condone former VP Cheney's not reporting his shooting someone in the face until many hours later ok? |
It's not about party politics, when someone does something illegal they need to responsible for it no matter what their status in society may be. As most of you already know, this is a constant problem in our society. When someone takes steroids they need to be kicked out of the league they play for. |
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08/27/2009 10:48:15 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
TEN HOURS LATER the police find out about this?????
He's surrounded by his family and lawyers when the deed is brought to light?
He's given a suspended sentence?
He continues down a path of womanizing and drunkenness for another decade and a half or so, and that's okay too?
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If you'd read the life story of Ted's father you'd better understand why he acted like he did. But I think one mention of the accident would have sufficed.
The guy is dead, let's give him at least til after he's buried
before we roast him. I didn't have much respect for Ted but I can at least think of one good thing about him: He was a darn good sailor. |
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08/27/2009 11:42:17 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
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Oh......and to return to Cheney.....he *did* shoot a lawyer, right?.......8>) |
LOL!
My dad, my aunt and my sister are all attorneys, lol...and my uncle was a judge.
Most of Ted Kennedy's "bad period" was when I was very, very small. The womanizing, drinking, etc. is nothing new to politics and isn't the type of thing most want dredged up, but it's not a new phenomena and now that Ted is gone, you'll just continue to hear about those in present day doing the same thing. My point being that he wasn't the only person not being a perfect role model, but out of respect, he DID do a lot of good things as well. Many these days that do the womanizing, drinking, drug, sex scandal crap cannot be singled out for the good things they have done, let alone for over 40 years. Like him or hate him, Ted Kenney's memory still commands some level of respect and civility, even if only a tiny shred for whatever reason you have. Edited for fat fingers!
Message edited by author 2009-08-27 11:43:03. |
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08/27/2009 12:11:46 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by bergiekat:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
...
Oh......and to return to Cheney.....he *did* shoot a lawyer, right?.......8>) |
LOL!
My dad, my aunt and my sister are all attorneys, lol...and my uncle was a judge.
Most of Ted Kennedy's "bad period" was when I was very, very small. The womanizing, drinking, etc. is nothing new to politics and isn't the type of thing most want dredged up, but it's not a new phenomena and now that Ted is gone, you'll just continue to hear about those in present day doing the same thing. My point being that he wasn't the only person not being a perfect role model, but out of respect, he DID do a lot of good things as well. Many these days that do the womanizing, drinking, drug, sex scandal crap cannot be singled out for the good things they have done, let alone for over 40 years. Like him or hate him, Ted Kennedy's memory still commands some level of respect and civility, even if only a tiny shred for whatever reason you have. Edited for fat fingers! |
 bergiekat, you are doing a splendid job of advocating a balanced view of this complicated person.
Everyone makes mistakes, sometimes horrible ones - well except for those among us who are perfect. This man went on in his life, now over, to make life easier for millions of Americans.
A few? - the Head Start program; The Americans with Disabilities Act, health care for the disadvantaged.
No, we won't forget he lived a far less than perfect life, but we can remember that he also used his life to help others.
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08/27/2009 05:33:50 PM · #45 |
The law wouldn't have done anything if you were a politician with Kennedy for a last name.
Originally posted by kenskid:
Sick comments? LOL...Mary Jo is NOT available to give her opinion. It is a simple fact.
On another note, I wonder how the law would treat any of us on DPC if we drove off a bridge, left the scene, and didn't report it for 10 hours. To top that off when they pulled up your car they had found a young lady that had drowned. I think most if not all of us would be in that all time top cliche............UNDER THE JAIL.
edit:
Opps...I see someone said this already !
Originally posted by franktheyank:
Some real sick comments from the previous commentors. Ted Kennedy dedicated his life, along with his brothers, to the betterment of humanity. He stood as an example of the best America hopes to be. The poor, the sick, working people, and minorities will always miss his leadership. |
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08/27/2009 06:01:55 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Traditionally, when great, enduring public figures die, they are given the respect they have earned by friend and foe alike. The tone of some of these posts is sickening to me. There's a time for that crap (say, a couple weeks after the funeral and onward?) but it sure as hell ain't now. Shame!
R. |
I'm with Bear on this one. No matter what you thought of the guy, he was a hell of a leader on his side of the game. |
On his side is the only place he will get respect (the liberal side). |
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08/27/2009 06:08:40 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by rugman1969:
On his side is the only place he will get respect (the liberal side). |
And on that you are just completely wrong -- I heard a tape just yesterday when he came to the Senate not long ago to cast a vote, and received a standing ovation from both sides.
Listen Senator Orrin Hatch's comments regarding Mr. Kennedy for an example of a true conserviative respecting someone whom he often opposed on ideology, but not humanity. There are many conservatives capable of expressing respect for their opponents -- unfortunately the few loudmouths who seem to control the rhetoric (if not the policies) of the conservative "side" are not among them. |
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08/27/2009 06:15:25 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
What would Jesus say? Hmmmm ... maybe something like "Let he who is without sin ..."
Nobody has (or could) overlook this one tragic episode is the Senator's life. But I venture to estimate that most convicted murderers get out of jail in less than the 47 years Mr. Kennedy served the nation, especially as an advocate for the disadvantaged.
At least these people served their time.
The constant chant of "Mary Jo, Mary Jo, Mary Jo ..." to me merely reinforces the hypocrisy I find the defenders of "family values" to exhibit routinely ... I guess in the old days it would be described as boorishness ... :-( |
You say hypocrisy when someone gets away with murder and it is brought up when he dies and call it boorish? Something is wrong here. No matter how much he is defended, it will NEVER change the fact that he is a murderer that got away with it. |
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08/27/2009 06:18:51 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by kenskid:
When the great, enduring public figure drank too much, drove a 21 year old off a bridge, left her to drown, went back to the comfort of his friends, slept off his alcohol and then called the police 10 hours later...then the public figure is fair game for any and ALL opinions.
If you would like to overlook Mary Jo, that is fine - but please don't say it is sickening to bring it up.
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What's sickening is to focus on one tragic accident and his poor decision making in its aftermath. He took responsibility for his actions and has obviously suffered the consequences, politically at least.
When did he take responsibility? For that, he would have had to admit what he did, and then serve his prison time for you to say he took responsibility. He never did either. The fact that it was only one tragic accident is not the point. It is how he handled it, and that he was never rightfully punished for it. If this would have been you, you would still be in prison. My God, get over the liberalism and look at the cold hard truth. He was scum, and will always be remembered as such by the people with values.
Or another way is to look at his political accomplishments, all of which required bipartisan support,
Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, the National Cancer Act of 1971, the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act of 1986, the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, the Ryan White AIDS Care Act in 1990, the Civil Rights Act of 1991, the Mental Health Parity Act in 1996 and 2008, the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, the No Child Left Behind Act in 2002.
Or you can look at his work on the conflict in Northern Ireland, his Knighthood by Queen Elizabeth, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, his advocacy for minority groups regarding racial justice; women̢۪s reproductive rights; gender equality; age discrimination; prejudice against immigrants; bigotry against gays and lesbians; and civil rights.
Constantly bringing up the tragedy of Mary Jo Kopechne and Chappaquiddick says more about you and your ilk and your asinine attempt at personal destruction and dishonors the memory of Mary Jo.
Shame, indeed. |
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08/27/2009 06:20:01 PM · #50 |
The dishonor to Mary Jo started in 1969, when Ted walked away from the scene and did nothing for 10 hours. Care to comment on that?
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Shame = Driving young lady into water - leaving her to drown - getting away with it.
You can sing the praise of the great Kennedy all you want. It doesn't change the fact of what happened at Chappaquiddick.
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And everyone knows you don't give a damn about Mary Jo. You only use her to attack Kennedy. If that isn't a dishonor to her memory, I don't know what is. |
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