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12/10/2004 03:09:06 PM · #201 |
Originally posted by jemison:
I'm curious to hear if anyone using one of these methods has noticed that their average vote given has gone up or down. Anyone? |
I imagine mine will go down, but that's because I am a newby and as I look at my scores on the red bar for each of the entries after the voting, I find I have been overly generous compared to others. Thus, the mob mentality kicks in. ;-) Well it's not really that, actually now that I think about it, that is what creates standardization in voting. I would bet that people tend to adjust their voting based on where they stand compared to the other voters in that chart. Not on any one particular image - just over time. If that chart was not available, I think the votes would almost always be all over the map.
my 2 cents.
Message edited by author 2004-12-10 15:30:32. |
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12/10/2004 03:14:16 PM · #202 |
Originally posted by jemison:
I'm curious to hear if anyone using one of these methods has noticed that their average vote given has gone up or down. Anyone? |
for the most part, i'm seeing the scores i'm giving going up a little. this method gives me a much easier to manage framework for evaluating all aspects of an image, as opposed to simply throwing out indiscrimate 3s...
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12/10/2004 03:47:23 PM · #203 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
If you put an edit field there that would catch the whole comment to be inserted, like Eddy's prototype does, I could at least do a copy/paste manually into the comments box of the main DPC frame. |
It does have a text box that all the scoring and comments get dumped into before it copies to the clipboard. It's under "Comments to be copied to clipboard:" and that's where the focus ends up, so if you did a CTRL+A and then CTRL+C, it should be on the clipboard then. Maybe your clipboard is broken. ;-) If I get time, I'll test in other browsers. |
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12/10/2004 03:55:49 PM · #204 |
Originally posted by kpriest:
Originally posted by nshapiro:
If you put an edit field there that would catch the whole comment to be inserted, like Eddy's prototype does, I could at least do a copy/paste manually into the comments box of the main DPC frame. |
It does have a text box that all the scoring and comments get dumped into before it copies to the clipboard. It's under "Comments to be copied to clipboard:" and that's where the focus ends up, so if you did a CTRL+A and then CTRL+C, it should be on the clipboard then. Maybe your clipboard is broken. ;-) If I get time, I'll test in other browsers. |
No worky on Firefox. :(
The edit box is always empty--which is why I originally thought it was for extra comments.
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12/10/2004 04:03:01 PM · #205 |
Originally posted by lyta:
I don't recall recommending anything and I truly apologize if you find the fact I have "judging" experience,and said so, inappropriate. |
Come on, Lyta- YOU used the term "power tripping" which to me sounded ironic when you later blurted out your credentials and also underhandedly questioned voters qualifications (i.e. "I'll take the voter's word for it that they actually KNOW anything...")
Just relax, chill, and be grateful that anyone would spend any time giving you any feedback for free - I know I am.
Originally posted by lyta:
In fact with writing and photography I'm NOT intersted in praise. |
Now, if I was really mean, I could've said something about your spelling or your portfolio reflecting the truth in that statement - but I'm above saying something like that. Peace. :-) |
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12/10/2004 04:08:24 PM · #206 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
No worky on Firefox. :(
The edit box is always empty--which is why I originally thought it was for extra comments. |
That's weird. Maybe EddyG can help - populating the comments box uses the same code in his original design, I think, And that occurs before the clipboard event.
...I'll take the research and technical "thinking out loud" offline. If anyone wants to help fix this issue PM me. |
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12/10/2004 04:08:48 PM · #207 |
Oh dear, I think this idea is not so ideal.
Why is there a growing need on this site to break everything down into sections and segments. Just vote with your head and heart, there is no need to dissect a photograph, christ with this method every decent photo in National Geographic would start getting 1's for exposure and focus.
It's also very detrimental to those new photographers whom want to learn how to critique and perhaps appreciate photography, and learn from their own critiquing.
Look at the photograph - I mean really look at it, if it's good, it should say something to you, it will jump out at you, make you think, turn you on, repulse you etc etc.
Do that and one will find absolutely no need to follow a cold shallow impersonal robot style of voting.
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12/10/2004 04:13:36 PM · #208 |
| I agree completely jonpink... Thats what I was trying to say a few comments below, but you said it perfectly! |
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12/10/2004 04:14:37 PM · #209 |
Originally posted by nico_blue:
I agree completely jonpink... Thats what I was trying to say a few comments below, but you said it perfectly! |
Unfortunately, and I sincerely mean unfortunately, we are in the minority..
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12/10/2004 05:16:39 PM · #210 |
I really like the concept and its something I have been thinking about for a while but didn't realise this thread had started before my life at dpc.
Couple of things I'd like to add.
I love Eddyg vote system but I would add another line of voting numbers down the bottom, these would be like we vote now and when used would grey out the top 4 voting areas and Visa versa when the top 4 (Current ones in the demo version) are used the bottom one would be grayed.
Another thing is WHEN this gets implemented why would the vote number have to be rounded? Why not reflect the actual vote score rather than the rounded off version.
I would love to see this added to the 2005 site improvements.
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12/10/2004 05:19:48 PM · #211 |
I do think there's a confusion between the numerical voting and the commenting.
The breakdown in the new system(s) goes in the comment field simply because there's no where else to put it in the site without changing the site.
This doesn't eliminate the need for detailed comments. It is only meant to replace the one dimensional scoring system, and provide more information.
Perhaps adding to the confusion, there is room to explain each score. But, this is a nice idea because it gives a framework to organize detailed constructive comments.
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12/10/2004 05:39:45 PM · #212 |
Bottom line is quite simple - if this isn't your idea of a good way to cast votes, don't use it. Even if it were implemented on the site, it would have to be optional or risk losing a large number of voters to their time constraints. In fact, I won't use this every time. BUT if I want to comment, it helps me structure my comments in a categorical, constructive way, saves me time and I strongly believe it ultimately benefits the photographer.
I'm still baffled why people take a proposed solution to an inadequate system and /or process (as defined by the large number of people who've expressed this) and, instead of comparing it to the problem situation it was meant to somewhat alleviate FOR THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO, they compare it to their concept of PERFECT or IDEAL. This type of thinking causes organizations to stay stuck in the mud because somehow they think that NO SOLUTION is better than anything but the PERFECT SOLUTION. ...shakes head...
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12/10/2004 07:04:56 PM · #213 |
Originally posted by kpriest:
Bottom line is quite simple - if this isn't your idea of a good way to cast votes, don't use it. Even if it were implemented on the site, it would have to be optional or risk losing a large number of voters to their time constraints. In fact, I won't use this every time. BUT if I want to comment, it helps me structure my comments in a categorical, constructive way, saves me time and I strongly believe it ultimately benefits the photographer.
I'm still baffled why people take a proposed solution to an inadequate system and /or process (as defined by the large number of people who've expressed this) and, instead of comparing it to the problem situation it was meant to somewhat alleviate FOR THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO, they compare it to their concept of PERFECT or IDEAL. This type of thinking causes organizations to stay stuck in the mud because somehow they think that NO SOLUTION is better than anything but the PERFECT SOLUTION. ...shakes head... |
That kind of isn't the point.
I think those against it are probably more against having their photos judged in robot fashion. And apart from that I personally feel that would be detrimental to the site. Nothing about not wanting to use the system or not - as you said, if it was implemented one could simply choose to ignore the system and vote as per usual.
As for a solution, well your creating a problem that isn't there in the first place, which is why many companies go out of business. They feel the need to keep altering the way they work, thinking they are not doing enough - hire a ridiculously expensive consultancy group - get told that this is the better way - realize 6 months later it wasn't and that it didn't need fixing in the first place - then fold into liquidation.
British Airways spring to mind with their tail designs..
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12/10/2004 07:13:01 PM · #214 |
First you really didn't read my message,
you then read what isn't really there and make assumptions without knowing me - I'm mean common sense says with just a number system you have to take for granted that voters know something about Comp and Tech when they use it to vote - and since I've just taken up photography in the last 6 months, it stands to reason a number would mean nothing without clarification.
You mention my spelling is an issue and by the way many of the best writers in the world can't spell, that's what editors are for so it wouldn't show you as being mean just ill-informed
Then you take one of MY photos and I guess I must assume you were just trying to be funny rather than mean spirited, and try to prove a point at my expense or at least get a laugh.
It's like marketing a product, trying it out on the consumer, the consumer likes it but sees there is room for improvement, states why they think it could cause some problems and the promoter doesn't even really listen to what the consumer is saying, just assumes the person has an issue, because he sees flaws in the product, so takes something that doesn't belong to them and holds it up for ridicule in a way that could be viewed as being rather insensitive and going against the agreement regarding usage on this site - all because the consumer points out something someone doesn't want to address?
And where has anyone actually said no solution is better than anything but the perfect solution. Organizations go bankrupt if they don't really listen to what the consumer is saying. In fact your attitude is more detrimental to moving forward, then those offering opposite opinions or playing devil's advocate.People are making valid points in this thread. Maybe you should chill out and quit adding intrepretations of people's comments that aren't there. Most of us see the benfits to this system - it is you sir, stuck in the mud.
You have also made a crack about my portfolio on this forum. I've been at this for 6 months and want to learn and you assure me if you were really mean you would what - use my portfolio against me. Now if I was in the habit of reading between the lines as you are, that may be taken as a threat. I have not made one insult directed at you. All I did was honestly give my opinion of what it felt like to be on the receiving end of the number system without the comments qualifying it. The voter who used it was gracious enough to go back and qualify his numbers which was of great help to me.
Bottom line is if we don't want to use the system - we won't, but we have a right to voice are concerns and opinions and use lousy spelling and even bad grammar if we choose.
Originally posted by kpriest:
Originally posted by lyta:
I don't recall recommending anything and I truly apologize if you find the fact I have "judging" experience,and said so, inappropriate. |
Come on, Lyta- YOU used the term "power tripping" which to me sounded ironic when you later blurted out your credentials and also underhandedly questioned voters qualifications (i.e. "I'll take the voter's word for it that they actually KNOW anything...")
Just relax, chill, and be grateful that anyone would spend any time giving you any feedback for free - I know I am.
Originally posted by lyta:
In fact with writing and photography I'm NOT intersted in praise. |
Now, if I was really mean, I could've said something about your spelling or your portfolio reflecting the truth in that statement - but I'm above saying something like that. Peace. :-) |
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12/11/2004 12:14:00 AM · #215 |
[edit (back from therapy)] All ranting and railing removed. Doc said it was ok to leave the poem though.
Lyta:
I'll leave you with this (thought you might appreciate the poetry):
I will use the tool in voting.
And sometimes I will not.
If you receive the numbers from me,
Please don't get all hot.
It's not that I'm not trying
It's not that I don't care
Please just stop your crying
and pretend that they aren't there.
If I could know it was your entry
that I was voting on
I'd stop what I was doing
and comment on and on.
[]Click Here if You Found This Poem Helpful.
OKAY, I'm done. ...back to therapy...
Message edited by author 2004-12-11 14:16:01. |
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12/11/2004 12:24:26 AM · #216 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
...
Look at the photograph - I mean really look at it, if it's good, it should say something to you, it will jump out at you, make you think, turn you on, repulse you etc etc.
Do that and one will find absolutely no need to follow a cold shallow impersonal robot style of voting. |
And if the photograph does none of the above, you then do what? Give it a 2 and move on? That does not help the photographer get better. We can learn from our mistakes, but it will take much longer if we are left to figure out on our own what we are doing wrong and how to fix it.
If you think a pic is worthy of less than 5, then say why and what might be done to fix it. If you cannot put it into words, then you don't know either. So if you don't know what to do to make it better, can you give it any score at all beyond like/dislike?, which is within my 3 year old's capabilities.
What the proposed system helps do is to allow the untrained voter to break down teh good/bad and areas of improvement. This will help the voter learn and the photographer as well. This is what this site is supposed to be about, isn't it?
Message edited by author 2004-12-11 00:25:28.
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12/11/2004 12:52:21 AM · #217 |
Well said, Ken and Chris.
Jon, I don't really understand why someone would think categorized responses, using a tool are "robotic". Isn't it just as robotic when I press one of the scoring radio buttons? Perhaps even more robotic because I am not bothering to write any comment.
I understand that comments, detailed analysis are best. But in reality, you aren't going to see much of that in the challenges. I did it in Low Tech, where I spent 5-10 or more minutes per comment, and actually only got through 50 of them or so. If I could tell ALL the people who entered, "good composition" using one of the scales, rather than words, wouldn't that be better than if I don't bother to write a comment at all? I've never tried to comment on all the entries (well, never succeeded).
I currently score entries that don't meet the challenge on a 1-5 scale. Sometimes I will break over that and even give a 6. What have I told those people? Do they think they took a "middling" shot? I'd like to tell the ones who got a 5, great shot, but I fail to see how it meets the challenge. Sure would be easy if I could give them a 10 for technical, 10 for aesthetics, and a 1 for meets the challenge.
If it were my photo, I would really appreciate that! I would UNDERSTAND why I ended up in the middle, from the voters perspective. (In fact, I had just such an experience in the communication challenge. Few people justified their middling scores to me.
Finally, as to the argument (I don't know who made it below) that it would be offensive or insulting to get a robotic score, in fact, you have no control over WHAT people write in the comment area. And I bet many people even use that oh-so-robotic device called the clipboard to enter text--especially those trying to comment on all the photos.
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12/11/2004 12:56:11 AM · #218 |
Kpriest-
now, I'm just nit-picking, but your poem, the helpful one, I'd remove "that" from the 8th line. Would have better "flow". :) Just a comment from one poet to another :) |
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12/11/2004 01:02:09 AM · #219 |
[edited for civility]
Ref. this Post
Originally posted by lyta:
Hey, I like that idea. There are increbilbe great shots that are technical flawed and vica versa - Also it gives a better chance for those photographers out there that like to be artsy and tend to be mistaken for digital art.
I must admit. much of my work is in the 50-60 percentile,which is probably where it belongs, but it's tough to see photos scoring high that are so obviously not as good as one's own - and seeing incredible photos not even in the top 50.
Ironically my photos that are technically the worst, score higher than my better pictures. I actually had someone (on my highest scoring photo) tell me my photo was awful, and why bother to submit a photo that obviously will never win.
Originally posted by dwterry:
I wonder... has anyone made the suggestion to have multiple voting scales, kinda like voting on Ice Skating:
Met Challenge: 1-10
Degree of Difficulty: 1-10
Composition: 1-10
Artistic: 1-10
Then the servers could take all four numbers into consideration to give a final score. It would be nice to then see these values separately tallied in the end as well to give us feedback on what people liked and what we need to improve. |
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Message edited by author 2004-12-11 14:17:35. |
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12/11/2004 01:04:01 AM · #220 |
Originally posted by vontom:
Kpriest-
now, I'm just nit-picking, but your poem, the helpful one, I'd remove "that" from the 8th line. Would have better "flow". :) Just a comment from one poet to another :) |
Author found comment helpful. |
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12/11/2004 01:37:21 AM · #221 |
[edit - more railing removed - medication kicking in...]
Message edited by author 2004-12-11 14:20:18. |
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12/11/2004 07:55:43 AM · #222 |
Just a reminder folks, don't make your forum posts into personal attacks, or we'll have to take action, including locking this thread...
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12/11/2004 09:57:32 AM · #223 |
Originally posted by Manic:
Just a reminder folks, don't make your forum posts into personal attacks, or we'll have to take action, including locking this thread... |
Thanks Manic. Let's get back to debating the issues and finding a solution that all members and users are comfortable using.
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12/11/2004 10:58:18 AM · #224 |
Originally posted by kpriest:
AAArrrgghh! Now I'm mad again. I just happened across this little gem
Posted by our very own Lyta. UNBELIEVABLE. about 2 weeks ago Lyta "likes the idea" of categorized voting. Then- - - she gets one she doesn't like and suddenly it's a bad idea.
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Human nature - just check most any photo - in my *** entry, I am getting 'great border' and 'the border is bad' - what can i say?
As to worst pics technically scoring well, could be composition was great - and technically good had bad comp...but we'll never know under teh current system.
Add in the extra code to allow the 'new' voting method AND leave the old - if one chooses to use the new method, then (i have not read every post so fogive the next part here ) the score gets posted like now in teh dB, but the 4 indi scores are appended to the regular comment (dB file dwise) and if one chooses to use the old method, they still can, just the comment will lack the 4 lines for the indi categories.
The only coding for this is a bit of javascript to append things and do an average. no dB changes, so no more workload for the server.
Both methods exist, voting wise, for a test period or longer.
IF it is confusing, then offer the voter the option of which method to use, like we ar enow doing with comments or can be done with scores during a challenge.
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12/11/2004 02:33:39 PM · #225 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
No worky on Firefox. :(
The edit box is always empty--which is why I originally thought it was for extra comments. |
Should work now according to EddyG who sent me the fix.
[EddyG]I think I got it working as best as it can under Firefox.
I think it computes everything correctly. It also selects all
of the text in the comment block when you click "Copy to clipboard"
so all you have to do is type Ctrl-V and then Ctrl-C. |
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