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12/10/2004 09:59:34 AM · #176
Yea well, I just received one of those ratings as a comment. I found it tacky. Especially since it explains nothing, absolutely nothing.If voters want to base their overall score on the system, fine, but to use it in place of a comment is power tripping at someone elses expense. And I'll take the voter's word for it that they actually KNOW anything about technique and composition.Because all I got was numbers, no explanation, no comment, just numbers!
If voters want to give low scores that is there perogative,if they choose to say why, fine;leaving a score break down as a comment - well for shame!
Oh yeah I'm really sure it will correct some of the scoring trends.

Message edited by author 2004-12-10 10:04:08.
12/10/2004 10:11:19 AM · #177
Originally posted by lyta:

power tripping at someone elses expense

no, power tripping would be to give you a 1, 2, or 3 without any comment at all. at least this gives you the foundation for exploring how someone else reacts to your work. on the other hand, if all you want is praise and niceties, you can always do what i do: let my wife and kids tell me give me comments. all the same, if you want to simply lash out at anyone using this type of tool, i don't think you'll ever get to the point of understanding the difference between pleasing yourself and pleasing the masses...
12/10/2004 10:31:00 AM · #178
Lynn,

Sometimes when people cast a vote they are not finished, and may go back and add comments later. We must look at all possibilities here.
12/10/2004 10:45:22 AM · #179
Composition: 2, Technical: 2, Appeal: 1, Challenge: 5, Overall Calculated Average Score: 3

Ironically can you guess who gave me this?
Funny coz this is what I received. No comments here. What do think this teaches me.? This gives me a foundation?
Your reading comprehension skills: 0
Better read my comment again. Don't need praise.

Oh and by the way I am a judge. I judge writing contests where the winners actually win money. I'm also a professional writer. I didn't become a professional from listening to praise and niceties, but by listening to what was wrong and how to strengthen my work.
If you really think the above break down of numbers is telling me anything, then you are mistaken.

If everyone on this site gives me a 1 for a photo, I have absolutely no problem with that, but frankly I'd prefer no comments then what I received.

I notice some voter's in this thread are decent enough to include a comment with the numbers. KUDO's to you. This shows a sensitivity and some real thought regarding voting. It show consideration not only for others, but for the task of voting which I know takes up time that many of us don't really have; and I thank you.

Originally posted by skiprow:

Originally posted by lyta:

power tripping at someone elses expense

no, power tripping would be to give you a 1, 2, or 3 without any comment at all. at least this gives you the foundation for exploring how someone else reacts to your work. on the other hand, if all you want is praise and niceties, you can always do what i do: let my wife and kids tell me give me comments. all the same, if you want to simply lash out at anyone using this type of tool, i don't think you'll ever get to the point of understanding the difference between pleasing yourself and pleasing the masses...
12/10/2004 11:04:49 AM · #180
Originally posted by lyta:

Your reading comprehension skills: 0

oh, lynn, i comprehend quite well. you didn't like my comment. i've augmented it. hopefully that will give you a little more insight as to how i scored your image, as well as how your image affected me. all the same, my reaction to it has been the same on each subsequent viewing as it was on the first. thanks for your most eloquent, yet loquacious, comments for me, as well.

Message edited by author 2004-12-10 11:05:14.
12/10/2004 11:13:30 AM · #181
Ken,

Thanks for breathing new life into this debate with your version of the voting tool. I rather get a structured vote such as this, then no comment at all. Even without using the additional commenting features, it illustrates the photographs strong points and weaknesses quite effectively.

Regards,

Owen Russell
12/10/2004 11:14:40 AM · #182
Originally posted by lyta:

Composition: 2, Technical: 2, Appeal: 1, Challenge: 5, Overall Calculated Average Score: 3


Lynn,

By looking at just the numbers without comments I see that the voter at least took the time to examine all four of the areas. He/She then applied a numerical value to what he/she thought of each one.

He/She obviously didn't like its appeal, thought it weakly met the challenge, and that both the composition and technical aspects needed help. I would bet that if he/she had just evaluated it on appeal alone you would have received one of those unexplained troll votes of 1.

So in summary just the numbers and categories do mean something, at least to me.

Dick

Message edited by author 2004-12-10 11:16:14.
12/10/2004 11:55:43 AM · #183
Originally posted by lyta:

Oh and by the way I am a judge. I judge writing contests where the winners actually win money. I'm also a professional writer. I didn't become a professional from listening to praise and niceties, but by listening to what was wrong and how to strengthen my work.


Wow. I see where you got the term "power trippin" Unbelievable.

As soon as you start paying me to critique your work, I will strongly consider the methods you recommend. Heck, if you pay me enough, I'll give you the actual score and comments you tell me to.

In the meantime, I will use my system to rate your self-portrait:

Composition: 7, Well composed - you, in the foreground, your mate standing back so as not to get pricked.
Technical: 7, Pretty good focus, DOF. Crisp!
Appeal: 3, A little off-putting actually. I can almost feel your spines puncturing my skin.
Challenge: 7, It is certainly black & white. No middle ground-- er, I mean gray area with you. uh, I mean your photo.
Overall Calculated Average Score: 6, Hey, look - it came out to the same thing I gave you during the challenge!
----------------------------------------

Originally posted by lyta:

And I'll take the voter's word for it that they actually KNOW anything about technique and composition.


Talk about your power trippin. You sound like an elitist.

Just in case you do get any comments from me on your challenge entries, let me give you my credentials so you can spot my username and disregard them:
I am a high school drop-out with no formal education in art or photography. I have read "Technique and Composition for Dummies" though.

12/10/2004 12:10:53 PM · #184
Originally posted by EddyG:

(BTW, my original "proof of concept" implementation does work in Firefox, so I'm not sure why Ken's revised variation does not.)


Not sure, but am guessing it has to do with this:
-----------------
onClick="AutoComment()" value="Copy to Clipboard"
...
frmDetVote.COMMENT.value = comm;
Copied = this.frmDetVote.COMMENT.createTextRange();
Copied.execCommand("Copy");
frmDetVote.COMMENT.focus();
-----------------
You're much better at this scripting than I am Eddy, so if you can tell me how to fix it, I will.

And if I didn't make it clear previously, EddyG deserves most of the credit for this - he had much of the interface and the calculations already coded and working. That is what compelled me - I hate to see that stuff go to waste.

Message edited by author 2004-12-10 12:11:10.
12/10/2004 12:11:39 PM · #185
Take that.
12/10/2004 12:24:31 PM · #186
Originally posted by kpriest:

onClick="AutoComment()" value="Copy to Clipboard"

Pretty sure clipboard access is considered a security vulnerability (you could have sensitive data on the clipboard, and some web page could "copy" your clipboard contents into a hidden form element). Therefore it is disallowed in Firefox. (See this bug report which indicates this vulnerability was fixed in Firefox 1.0PR. I think if you sign your JavaScript code you might be able to jump through some hoops to do it, but that is a lot of extra effort...)

Message edited by author 2004-12-10 12:27:53.
12/10/2004 12:31:59 PM · #187
wow, this thread leaves me speachless... Art is Art!... its bad enough we have to vote on it but i do think a check box and 'grading' criteria is overkill. Look at a photo, examine what catches your eye, see how it impacts you, decide whether you like it or not, and vote accordingly. Give as many 1s and you give 10s and your vote average will be balanced at 5.0

Viola!

I know it sucks when we get low scores especially when we thought the shot would really do well but we need to examine the voting audience and try to appeal to them. That is what art is about in some ways.

Oh and one last thing, people please stop being challenge wording nazi's. For example this challenge 'yellow leads to the impact' doesnt mean you need to have a yellow arrow pointing to the focal point of the picture! If the photo contains something yellow it fits the challenge. And yellow comes in all shades of orange and green (yellow plus red is orange, yellow plus blue is green), just because something isnt neon yellow doesnt mean its not yellow.
12/10/2004 12:44:20 PM · #188
Nick,

Bear in mind that this voting method is based on the theory that DPC is a learning site, and was developed to assist both the voter and the photographer in evaluating the entries. A blatant vote on the scale of 1-10 just simply is not as helpful as the proposed voting method.

Dick
12/10/2004 12:49:44 PM · #189
Originally posted by nico_blue:

Oh and one last thing, people please stop being challenge wording nazi's. For example this challenge 'yellow leads to the impact' doesnt mean you need to have a yellow arrow pointing to the focal point of the picture! If the photo contains something yellow it fits the challenge.


The solution to this is a simple, concisely vague challenge description.

I love the descriptions for Broken and Wind...the yellow description was ridiculous.
12/10/2004 12:54:38 PM · #190
Originally posted by lyta:

Composition: 2, Technical: 2, Appeal: 1, Challenge: 5, Overall Calculated Average Score: 3


I am not sure why you would think a 3, with no indication of why they scored it that way, is more information to you than the breakdown, which showed you that despite the fact that they didn't like the subject matter, and it could have been composed and carried out MUCH better, at least you did meet the challenge half-way, and they weren't penalizing you (much) for that.

Now to add my constructive crit, I personally think the latter category could simply be 10/5/0, meets the challenge, doesn't, or not sure (can't tell). It's harder, and overlapping with the "appeal" scale to rate "how well" it meets the challenge. It either does or it doesn't. Or do you want to rate how yellow a yellow photo is?

Now I realize you can do that with the existing 1-10 scale, and that the voters can then make their own system. But frankly, as I think about it more, that's perhaps one problem with DPC voting. Everyone has their own system/scale.

On another site I am trying, there's a scale next to the voting, that at least helps me categorize the vote.

1 - 4 significant changes recommended
5 - 6 some changes recommended
7 - 8 recognized
9 - 10 honorable

While I realize even these categories are somewhat open to interpretation, what I think it accomplishes is to "standardize" across voters how they interpret the scale. I think that's sorely needed on DPC.

Message edited by author 2004-12-10 12:55:12.
12/10/2004 01:01:04 PM · #191
Originally posted by nico_blue:

And yellow comes in all shades of orange and green (yellow plus red is orange, yellow plus blue is green), just because something isnt neon yellow doesnt mean its not yellow.

Point well made. Had I thought about that earlier, this would've been my entry for the Yellow Revisited:

I call it "Yellow, in a high concentration of RGB" or simply "#FFFFFF"

Just a little razzing from a challenge wording nazi. ;-)
12/10/2004 01:03:53 PM · #192
Originally posted by nico_blue:

its bad enough we have to vote on it

well, it is a challenge site. it represents the mechanism d&l came up with a few years ago to move their own skills and understanding forward.

nobody is forced to participate. one doesn't have to submit entries, one doesn't have to vote. if someone wants, they can limit their exposure to simply purusing the galleries, looking for art.

the reality is that this is a peer-driven competition where the primary motivator is to get better scores. this requires connecting with the masses. some people have worked at this and have pretty much mastered the art of producing great images that evoke positive responses from most of the viewers.

as is, the simple scoring does not tell you anything more than whether or not you connected. the volume of challenge entries during a week make it pretty tough to produce a lot of meaningful comments. this tool that ken adapted from eddieg comes the closes to offering a little bit more than a simple score.

yeah, it has already ruffled some feathers. what else is new? it is still a heckuva improvement. and maybe, just maybe, if people would look at the numbers and try to understand what they communicate about how their image is connecting with the voters, they might find some clues about how to move their overall all averages up a notch (if that's what they want to do).

the one thing i really like about this is having a "meet the challenge" component. meeting the challenge is not simply an either/or proposition. after all, should an image with lots of yellow in it get a higher score just because it has lots of yellow? or should the viewer look at the image and ask if this really represents a great interpretation of the challenge?

i like this tool, and i'm going to use it as much as possible. and, along those lines, i have no problem whatsoever with someone pm'ing me to discuss their image. as i said before, i think this type of voting/commenting offers a foundation for a dialogue between artist and viewer that can lead to bridging the gap between the intention and the reaction.

skip
12/10/2004 01:31:24 PM · #193
Skip is so much more diplomatic than I am. ;-)

Regarding the "Meets the Challenge" - I view that as another element of interpretation and no two people will likely interpret it the same way just as individuals have differing opinions and tastes in the image itself. For example, I tend to think more literally, not very abstract. I don't like to have to search hard to understand how the image meets the challenge - to me, it should be obvious. That said, I realize and appreciate that others think differently, so I do try not to be too technical and to understand how they might have interpreted it. And sometimes I am pleasantly surprised: "Wow, I never thought of it that way, but that's great!"
12/10/2004 01:50:03 PM · #194
giving Ken's separate window solution a try using EI for the window and Mozilla for the rest:

Composition: 3, ok
Technical: 2, weak
Appeal: 1, none
Challenge: 5, still thinking, eh?
Overall Calculated Average Score: 3, sucks


this would be something for one of my images. My main comments are that it seems to work. However, I would like to see the overall score rounded *up* rather than down. For instance, the true average of my scores above would be 3.75, yet the overall was 3. I tend to want to give folks the benefit of doubt when scoring, and I think we all should. Also, I tried to add a comment in the clipboard window, but it didn't get copied. Did I miss something?
12/10/2004 01:54:32 PM · #195
Originally posted by soccerdad:


Composition: Subject Placement, Cropping, Background 7
Technical: Focus, Exposure, Lighting, Processing 10
Appeal: Is it Interesting, Motivating, Etc.? 6
How well it meets the challenge: 10
Total Averaged Rating 8 Dick


Best comment-score i have seen so far... most usefull and interesting...

WAYYYYYYYYY to go !
12/10/2004 01:57:10 PM · #196
Originally posted by jemison:

However, I would like to see the overall score rounded *up* rather than down. For instance, the true average of my scores above would be 3.75, yet the overall was 3.

You might want to check your math; your true average was 2.75 and it did round up... ;-)
12/10/2004 02:04:08 PM · #197
Eddy,

Is it before noon? That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!
12/10/2004 02:22:27 PM · #198
Originally posted by kpriest:

Originally posted by EddyG:

(BTW, my original "proof of concept" implementation does work in Firefox, so I'm not sure why Ken's revised variation does not.)


Not sure, but am guessing it has to do with this:
-----------------
onClick="AutoComment()" value="Copy to Clipboard"
...
frmDetVote.COMMENT.value = comm;
Copied = this.frmDetVote.COMMENT.createTextRange();
Copied.execCommand("Copy");
frmDetVote.COMMENT.focus();
-----------------
You're much better at this scripting than I am Eddy, so if you can tell me how to fix it, I will.

And if I didn't make it clear previously, EddyG deserves most of the credit for this - he had much of the interface and the calculations already coded and working. That is what compelled me - I hate to see that stuff go to waste.


If you put an edit field there that would catch the whole comment to be inserted, like Eddy's prototype does, I could at least do a copy/paste manually into the comments box of the main DPC frame. That avoids the need to use multiple windows (jeesh, I already have about 29 windows open most the time, not even counting all the tabs in my firefox and XMetal editor windows.)

Regards--Neil

12/10/2004 02:23:05 PM · #199
I don't recall recommending anything and I truly apologize if you find the fact I have "judging" experience,and said so, inappropriate. My point about,taking criticism about my writing, and working from that,is how I ended up getting paid for writing.(One seldom is paid for judging)One doesn't improve by getting upset because you don't like the criticism. In fact with writing and photography I'm NOT intersted in praise. Now if I was told Sentence Structure: 2 - besides the fact my sentence structure sucked what else have I learned? How does it suck? Was it a particular place or the whole piece?
I have no problem with the system, I plan to use it myself. In fact many voters on the thread made helpful comments that went with the numbers,in their examples.

And why do some of you assume I'm upset about the score?
I've got comments on this challenge where the voter obviously scored the photo low, but the comment certainly pointed out why.

Even the amusing breakdown of one of my photos which I'm not sure whether permission to use is needed (Copyright is a tricky issue) tells me more then Composition: 2
Yes as if a 2 now makes it perfectly clear what is wrong with the composition. Beside the fact the voter marked it a 2, and they believe something is wrong with it, what else do I know - where do I possible start. Would cropping have helped? I'll never know.
Actually even the comment "it could have been composed much better" really says very little.

I never said I didn't deserve the 3 over all and the other numbers(Well, the 5 is probably a little low;-),as well.In fact it actually averages out to 2.5. If some of you want to believe I have a problem with the low score, well think what you want, I don't have a problem with the system at all, or my low score and stated so in my original message.

Again I apologize for offending anyone regarding commenting on having experience writing and judging. But in some cases a number system is also used,and I would personally never think of just rating a submission with a number breakdown with out a written comment, but the fact I do have some experience is no reason to mention it. I'm also a housewife and mother, but there again I power-trip and digress

The fact is I'm interested in learning, but if some do not want to impart any wisdom or their experience about photography, especially the technical and would rather believe I just don't like my score,then go for it, I can't do much about it.

Originally posted by kpriest:

Originally posted by lyta:

Oh and by the way I am a judge. I judge writing contests where the winners actually win money. I'm also a professional writer. I didn't become a professional from listening to praise and niceties, but by listening to what was wrong and how to strengthen my work.


Wow. I see where you got the term "power trippin" Unbelievable.

As soon as you start paying me to critique your work, I will strongly consider the methods you recommend. Heck, if you pay me enough, I'll give you the actual score and comments you tell me to.

In the meantime, I will use my system to rate your self-portrait:

Composition: 7, Well composed - you, in the foreground, your mate standing back so as not to get pricked.
Technical: 7, Pretty good focus, DOF. Crisp!
Appeal: 3, A little off-putting actually. I can almost feel your spines puncturing my skin.
Challenge: 7, It is certainly black & white. No middle ground-- er, I mean gray area with you. uh, I mean your photo.
Overall Calculated Average Score: 6, Hey, look - it came out to the same thing I gave you during the challenge!
----------------------------------------

Originally posted by lyta:

And I'll take the voter's word for it that they actually KNOW anything about technique and composition.


Talk about your power trippin. You sound like an elitist.

Just in case you do get any comments from me on your challenge entries, let me give you my credentials so you can spot my username and disregard them:
I am a high school drop-out with no formal education in art or photography. I have read "Technique and Composition for Dummies" though.
12/10/2004 02:46:47 PM · #200
I'm curious to hear if anyone using one of these methods has noticed that their average vote given has gone up or down. Anyone?
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