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DPChallenge Forums >> Web Site Suggestions >> Proposed voting method
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05/04/2004 11:18:21 AM · #1
Several people have asked about how I do it and if my goal was to see DPC adopt this type of voting format.

My Goal:

I have suggested going to a similar format for the voters and it has not been accepted. I feel it would be good for the site to give people without the time or knowledge the opportunity to express themselves, and rate a photograph in multiple levels at just the click of their mouse. It may take up too much server space and may be difficult to write, those things I know nothing about, and that might be one of the reasons for not adopting this format.

How I Do It:

All I did was put together a file in Microsoft Excel with a simple macro to do the math and, presto! It was done. I open two windows on my computer and switch back and forth between Excel and DPChallenge.

Hitting Control-C on the keyboard to select and copy the desired section in the spreadsheet runs the macro in Excel. (This is done after I put in the scores in each category). I then switch to DPC and paste it into the comment field in the voting window, and complete it by voting the average that was computed in Excel.

I find that this takes way less time than putting together a comment, but at the same time I can present to the photographer through the comment field a general idea what I saw in their work. I can add comments if the picture moves me to do so.

I donít usually vote on every picture, but I do take them as they come up.

Well thatís it in a nutshell, thanks for your interest, now lets all go find something new, different, and fun to take pictures of, but donít get lost.

Dick
05/04/2004 12:12:06 PM · #2
Hey Dick,

I think your approach to voting on challenges is right on. It breaks it down very well into usable information that everyone can learn from. I just wish some of the "heavy weights" and/or SC get behind this idea and implement a similar scheme right on the voting pages using XML, JAVA or other script.
05/04/2004 12:18:13 PM · #3
Just in case anyone doesn't know, the output of Dick's system looks something like:

Composition: Subject Placement, Cropping, Background 7
Technical: Focus, Exposure, Lighting, Processing 10
Appeal: Is it Interesting, Motivating, Etc.? 6
How well it meets the challenge: 10
Total Averaged Rating 8 Dick

FWIW: I find his comments very helpful.

Bill M.
05/04/2004 12:20:02 PM · #4
I think that's a great way to do it. As I've said in other posts, if they would change the voting to a set of scales like this, we would get so much more information out of the voting -- without even needing as many written critiques.

You might get more feedback on your method if you post an example, rather than having everyone go look for one. I have taken the liberty here of doing that:

Composition: Subject Placement, Cropping, Background 8
Technical: Focus, Exposure, Lighting, Processing 9
Appeal: Is it Interesting, Motivating, Etc.? 7
How well does it meet the challenge: 8
Total Averaged Rating 8


Hopefully, Drew and Langdon are listening in, as they often do (and they are pretty responsive). I don't see why this would be a major storage issue or programming issue. I think it's a matter of priorities, but personally, I give it a high priority! I know it will take us a couple more seconds per shot rating, but those seconds deciding how to vote on these scales are basically photo analysis--just what we want people to do.

PRETTY PLEASE DREW/LANGDON! (Ok, groveling a little... ;) )
05/04/2004 12:22:42 PM · #5
I think this method also is a great learning tool for the voter as well.
05/04/2004 12:22:51 PM · #6
I like it, too; it would give some uniformity even within your own voting. I would need the ability to override the automated "average" of the points, though, if there was a compelling reason to vote a different score than that which can be mathematically computed. "Sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of the parts."
05/04/2004 01:10:40 PM · #7
I tried this setup for awhile and even started to build a little java applet to automate it further, but I have abandon this approach lately. I was looking at some photos where the composition and subject made them outstanding even through there were some technical challenges with the image. In the end, the impact of a photograph is all the matters and technique is just part of we achieve that impact. Now I try to vote on impact and then comment on technical aspects.
05/04/2004 02:18:22 PM · #8
Similar ideas have been presented many times in the past.

My preference would be to have an assortment of checkboxes that users could choose to click before assigning their ranking. This would provide valuable anonymous feedback to the photographer and allow them to understand "the minds of the voters" without them actually having to type in a comment. The result would be a nice summary, something like this:

112 users provided the following feedback:
Meets the challenge: 102 (90.1%)
Underexposed: 12 (10.7%)
Oversharpened: 37 (33.0%)
etc.

Checkboxes could include things like "Obvious compression artifacts", "Image too small", "Good composition", "DOF too shallow", "Good use of DOF", "Interesting subject matter", "Uninteresting subject matter", among many other possibilities...

In the end, a score is still a score. But at least with the above-described type of feedback available, it might help explain why a picture didn't do as well as the submitter hoped. Of course, this would just lead to more posts in the forums saying stuff like "Can you believe 71% said that picture Xyzzy was overexposed! DPC voters are morons! That picture was robbed!", so maybe it is better to just leave well enough alone...

(See this thread where this (and other "tiered voting") ideas have been discussed.)

Message edited by author 2004-05-04 15:36:00.
05/04/2004 02:24:45 PM · #9
EddyG's last reponse is EXACTLY how I would love to be able to vote and to recieve some feedback without people being either too time-crunched or too afraid to really be honest as they see it.
05/04/2004 03:14:49 PM · #10
So much for "heavy weights" and SC getting behind the idea I guess. But there are still the little people. One collective voice and all that drivel. Oh well.
05/04/2004 03:16:15 PM · #11
Can we take it to the Supreme Court? That's waht everyone else in America does!
05/04/2004 04:02:29 PM · #12
Originally posted by Kylie:

Can we take it to the Supreme Court? That's waht everyone else in America does!


Maybe we should take it to the world court Kylie, seeing as though we have international members and registered users. ;)
05/04/2004 04:04:54 PM · #13
Right -- I only mentioned America, because I know first-hand how we Americans love our courts . . . No offense!!!!
05/04/2004 04:44:54 PM · #14
First of all I want to thank the six individuals that found this interesting enough to comment, and the 195 that viewed it, and decided to go on to other things.

I feel that if there were any possibility that something similar were adopted that simplicity for the voter must be regarded as a top priority. If it were to be too cumbersome with a myriad of check boxes and decisions to be made it would fail miserably.

Back to my shop to find something I havenít taken a picture of. Oh I forgot I better take it to someplace where I have never been first. :<).. Dick
05/04/2004 05:17:36 PM · #15
Hi Dick!

I tried to PM you to thank you for your comments as I like your style very much. I'm not sure if my comment made it to you, though, as my computer (dialup) was acting up at the time I hit send. At any rate, just wanted to add my comments to others. In this format, even if I don't completely agree with a comment, I at least see how the commenter saw it and can figure that perhaps others had the same thoughts.
05/04/2004 08:55:03 PM · #16
Originally posted by orussell:

So much for "heavy weights" and SC getting behind the idea I guess.

Just for you, Owen. =]

I just coded up Dick's voting strategy entirely in JavaScript.

If you ran something like Proxomitron (an awesome proxy filter), you could configure it to inject code lik the HTML/JavaScript that I wrote into URL's that contain "challenge_vote_image.php" and it would work without Drew and Langdon doing anything.

You can check it out in action here. "Auto-comment Only" puts the scoring breakdown into the comment box, allowing you to add additional comments. "Auto-vote only" votes the computed score. Useful if you don't want to leave a detailed analysis of your breakdown, or if you added additional comments. Takes you to the next image. "Auto-comment & Vote" puts the scoring breakdown into the comment area, votes the computed score, and takes you to the next image.

My code isn't totally tested, but the concept appears sound...

Message edited by author 2004-05-04 20:55:26.
05/04/2004 09:06:52 PM · #17
Originally posted by EddyG:

Originally posted by orussell:

So much for "heavy weights" and SC getting behind the idea I guess.

Just for you, Owen. =]

I just coded up Dick's voting strategy entirely in JavaScript.

If you ran something like Proxomitron (an awesome proxy filter), you could configure it to inject code lik the HTML/JavaScript that I wrote into URL's that contain "challenge_vote_image.php" and it would work without Drew and Langdon doing anything.

You can check it out in action here. "Auto-comment Only" puts the scoring breakdown into the comment box, allowing you to add additional comments. "Auto-vote only" votes the computed score. Useful if you don't want to leave a detailed analysis of your breakdown, or if you added additional comments. Takes you to the next image. "Auto-comment & Vote" puts the scoring breakdown into the comment area, votes the computed score, and takes you to the next image.

My code isn't totally tested, but the concept appears sound...


WHAT did you just say????

Uh, guys...uh, could you check out the "How Much of a Nerd are You" thread????

:0)(this is a joke, seriously...I am glad you know what you're talking about...)
05/04/2004 09:45:03 PM · #18
I'm sorry. I just cannot imagine taking this technique to score Pablo Picasso, John Lennon, Edouard Degas, Edward Weston, St. Ansel, Jean-Jacques Beguin or any other artist's work on a SPREADSHEET for heaven's sake! This is (for some) ART! Judge it by how it strikes your eye, by what emotion it evokes, by the subtleties you discover. Judge it with your eye and your heart and SCREW the spreadsheet!

Just my not-very-humble opinion, folks. Y'all will do whatever you do, and I hope it makes you feel you've truly contributed.
05/04/2004 09:46:28 PM · #19
EddyG, you are the man!!!

That sure looks nice to me, almost exactly what I had in mind. The only thing I would change is the choices of how you want to vote, and this is why. If everyone used the tiered voting it would show up as damned deliberate if a picture got a final score of 1. I find that with using this format all pictures get a higher vote than if I just threw out a 3,4,or 5, as it is hard to find a picture that is bad in all areas of evaluation.

Good job, I think the site needs to take a serious look at this or something very similar.
Thanks, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Dick
05/04/2004 10:25:12 PM · #20
Originally posted by autool:

EddyG, you are the man!!!

That sure looks nice to me, almost exactly what I had in mind. The only thing I would change is the choices of how you want to vote, and this is why. If everyone used the tiered voting it would show up as damned deliberate if a picture got a final score of 1. I find that with using this format all pictures get a higher vote than if I just threw out a 3,4,or 5, as it is hard to find a picture that is bad in all areas of evaluation.

Good job, I think the site needs to take a serious look at this or something very similar.
Thanks, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Dick


Thanks Eddy!! And you too Dick for putting forth the idea. I encourage anyone hasn't already, to take a look at Eddy's voting interface.
05/04/2004 10:27:13 PM · #21
Originally posted by EddyG:

Checkboxes could include things like "Obvious compression artifacts", "Image too small", "Good composition", "DOF too shallow", "Good use of DOF", "Interesting subject matter", "Uninteresting subject matter", among many other possibilities...


I like that, better then having an auto voting scheme. Becuase then commenting would be easier. NonAuto Commenting would probably be less personable in general, which would be a loss, but it would be nice to have some easier way of getting feedback.
05/04/2004 10:39:59 PM · #22
Originally posted by f-32:

I'm sorry. I just cannot imagine taking this technique to score Pablo Picasso, John Lennon, Edouard Degas, Edward Weston, St. Ansel, Jean-Jacques Beguin or any other artist's work on a SPREADSHEET for heaven's sake! This is (for some) ART! Judge it by how it strikes your eye, by what emotion it evokes, by the subtleties you discover. Judge it with your eye and your heart and SCREW the spreadsheet!...


I'm sorry too preferring a conversational style capable of articulating whole thoughts and feelings.
05/04/2004 10:48:01 PM · #23
Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by f-32:

I'm sorry. I just cannot imagine taking this technique to score Pablo Picasso, John Lennon, Edouard Degas, Edward Weston, St. Ansel, Jean-Jacques Beguin or any other artist's work on a SPREADSHEET for heaven's sake! This is (for some) ART! Judge it by how it strikes your eye, by what emotion it evokes, by the subtleties you discover. Judge it with your eye and your heart and SCREW the spreadsheet!...


I'm sorry too preferring a conversational style capable of articulating whole thoughts and feelings.


It doesn't have to be mandatory. I'm sure if it was implemented there would be a choice to vote/comment conventionally or with a multi-tiered setup.
05/04/2004 11:13:18 PM · #24
Say, I have an idea! Let's program the COMPUTER to judge by all those standards! Then we wouldn't have all those troublesome opinions from people who judge on emotion, or talent (whayever THAT is!). Then we can submit our prints and not have to wait a week to see what our score is!!!
05/04/2004 11:21:43 PM · #25
Eddy:

Your example is great. The only issue I see with this (since you already built it so that using it is optional for the voter) is that if a large number of voters used this method, you could potentially get 200 comments with 800 different scores.

Processing the meaning of that much data would be difficult if we didn't have some method for statistical analysis. But even without the analysis tools, I think we could mentally use the feedback constructively.

Thanks for doing that example.
Bill M.
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