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05/15/2004 11:43:30 AM · #151 |
EddyG, I like your take on this subject, with prepared feedback options to tick in.
But yes/no buttons (none ticked by default) would probably be better than a checkbox since that will force me do do a concious choice. Neglecting to check 'Good composition' could mean I missed to tick that choice rather than that I didn't like the composition.
This way everyone could choose to give feedback (or not to) on any selected subset of the available standard yes/no feedback options.
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05/18/2004 11:56:59 AM · #152 |
If anyone would like a copy of the Excel macro for voting using Dick's approach, please feel free to PM me and I'll forward it. Alternatively, you could create one yourself, it's not really difficult, just thought I save anyone who's interested some time.
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12/06/2004 01:08:51 PM · #153 |
I did a couple different searches for this idea in the forums but after sifting through many lengthy threads and getting sidetracked on several of them, I just decided to post it here. **Thanks to David (Britannica) for finding this and pointing me here.
So I spent about an HOUR reading through this post and it is exactly what I was suggesting. Looks like the thread died in May (??!)
I think I have seen the results of the excel macro voting recently and I like it. I am baffled, but not surprised by all the comments from people about automated responses. There are specific complaints in this thread about the excel-responses that say they aren't specific enough. Not specific enough???!!! I am seeing those responses as an alternative to NO COMMENTS or "Cool!" - you tell me which is more specific: NO RESPONSE or some semi-automated, albeit consolidated remarks?? Jeez - it seems like it's got to be all or nothing with some people.
Anywho - I LOVE this: EddyG's Sample 2!! Wish I'd seen it before I went and put that static prototype together. :-(
I'm still a newby here and not to sound cynical, but reading through the threads, I can tell I could spend a lot of time discussing this issue (as well as others) and nothing would ever get done about it. One of the pitfalls of an organizations popularity growing to the point of gridlock. Probably unavoidable, particularly when it revolves around something as subjective as art - and with a multi-national membership as well.
So my realistic alternatives are: Use the spreadsheet macro and modify it for my own style or create a similar solution for myself. I can live with that.
In case it matters though, here is my position on this issue:
I think OPTIONAL, UNOBTRUSIVE, NON-CONFUSING, BRIEF, HIDEABLE, categorized voting THAT IS NOT AUTOMATICALLY TIED TO THE OVERALL CHALLENGE SCORING would be a huge benefit to all. Not tied to the overall scoring because that allows the voter to weight the categories the way they see fit. I could give a photo a 10 in 3 of 4 categories, but if it's a 1 in "Meets the Challenge" I'll give it an overall 1 or 2. Others might disagree, which this method would allow for.
As far as receiving automated comments, I welcome them. As I said, they are more valuable than nothing or "Cool." (which I myself have used on occasion).
Another issue was mentioned in that thread: mini-challenges. I like this a lot as well. I'll see about posting my comments there.
Overall, there is not much I don't like about this site, the concept, the members, the rules, etc. Very glad I found it.
Message edited by author 2004-12-09 01:41:29. |
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12/08/2004 08:01:36 PM · #154 |
| Wow. You could hear a pin drop in this thread. Must be dead or taboo or something. |
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12/08/2004 08:24:11 PM · #155 |
Originally posted by kpriest:
Wow. You could hear a pin drop in this thread. Must be dead or taboo or something. |
Ken: Thanks for looking this up and your input on the idea.
My thoughts on this thread is that a lot of the folks that don't like the idea never really understood it in the first place. I don't see any way that it would not be vast improvement to the site. In a nutshell a voter could vote in different catagories, giving the entrant some sort of idea what they thought of the entry, or the voter could also elaborate giving more detail as they thought necessary to the entry.
There were a lot of knowledgeable contributors to the idea, and it seems a shame to not get any feedback at all from the site administrators.
I think it is pretty dead, unless new members take a look and get involved.
Dick
As an example, right now my entry in "Landmarks" is running 5.37 with only 3 comments, mostly favorable. The rest of the votes (126) didn't give me a clue why they didn't like it, why it is a poor photo, or what area I might work with to improve it. I have seen so many times that this is a "learning site", but I believe it has become primarily a competitive site with little emphasis on helping one another.
Now.... Should I have put this in the "Rant" section or will somebody just do a "Report Post", and put it to a final end.
Message edited by author 2004-12-08 20:34:23. |
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12/08/2004 08:39:48 PM · #156 |
OMG this tool EddyG put togther rocks! I have a few 'enhancements' that would go well with this if it was implemented as an optional tool, and admit I did not read the whole thread.
Option in Preferences (use voting machine)
10 Standard Macros in Preferences that can be preset by the voter to allow superquick entry of commonly used phrases. (Returning for comments; bumping up; still don't get it; what you mean a centered image on a black background?! blah, blah blah.
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12/08/2004 08:44:39 PM · #157 |
Originally posted by kpriest:
Wow. You could hear a pin drop in this thread. Must be dead or taboo or something. |
It needed the backing of some big names here at DPC. Seems as though if us mere mortals suggest something it gets swept under the rug. *edit It deserved the courtesy of a poll at least
Message edited by author 2004-12-08 20:48:07.
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12/08/2004 08:57:02 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by Arcanist:
a few 'enhancements' |
haha thought of another one:
Macro: And if this is another BradP photo, disregard my calculated 10 vote and cast a 2. :p
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12/08/2004 09:01:32 PM · #159 |
Owen,
That's right, I think we kind of got Pooped on with this one.
Oh well???? |
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12/08/2004 09:03:51 PM · #160 |
Originally posted by autool:
Owen,
That's right, I think we kind of got Pooped on with this one.
Oh well???? |
Hey Richard, just PMed you. :)
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12/08/2004 09:05:21 PM · #161 |
| Well, I'd still be happy to see it come to fruition! |
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12/08/2004 09:13:14 PM · #162 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Well, I'd still be happy to see it come to fruition! |
Just PMed you. :)
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12/08/2004 09:16:27 PM · #163 |
Funny, as I read more of the thread, I see discouraged people worried that this will just get swept under the rug. As a relative newbie here I have to say that I don't expect that at all.
The implementation of this type of voting tool (especially if optional) will probably take some consideration of the voting page design, the database itself, and the preferences pages. Could be a drawn out testing process to ensure solid quality control We would not want something like this stomping on the challenges with an overlooked implementation error.
I know that DPCPrints is priority one right now and rightfully so. I would think that 'the storefront' would filter a bunch of funding to the efforts that are here in the studio and maybe free up a few people's time from their day jobs to be able to spend more time here.
I have seen many changes in the site since August. Little things that take planning and proper execution to rightly service a community of such diverse people. I don't think for a minute this really quite huge paradigm shift will be tabled, but I do believe that any action on the subject will be presented to the community when (and only WHEN) the powers that be have had an opportunity to fully evaluate the impact and make sure it will not adversely affect what is already a solid system.
I don't see the navigators of this site ever indicating something is in the works or being considered when the possibility is that it may be a long time or a rough project, rather there are some really cool heads steering this place and when the deal is really ready to go through, it seems that it is then they let us get anxious about it's arrival.
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12/08/2004 09:27:29 PM · #164 |
Originally posted by Arcanist:
Funny, as I read more of the thread, I see discouraged people worried that this will just get swept under the rug. As a relative newbie here I have to say that I don't expect that at all.
The implementation of this type of voting tool (especially if optional) will probably take some consideration of the voting page design, the database itself, and the preferences pages. Could be a drawn out testing process to ensure solid quality control We would not want something like this stomping on the challenges with an overlooked implementation error.
I know that DPCPrints is priority one right now and rightfully so. I would think that 'the storefront' would filter a bunch of funding to the efforts that are here in the studio and maybe free up a few people's time from their day jobs to be able to spend more time here.
I have seen many changes in the site since August. Little things that take planning and proper execution to rightly service a community of such diverse people. I don't think for a minute this really quite huge paradigm shift will be tabled, but I do believe that any action on the subject will be presented to the community when (and only WHEN) the powers that be have had an opportunity to fully evaluate the impact and make sure it will not adversely affect what is already a solid system.
I don't see the navigators of this site ever indicating something is in the works or being considered when the possibility is that it may be a long time or a rough project, rather there are some really cool heads steering this place and when the deal is really ready to go through, it seems that it is then they let us get anxious about it's arrival. |
I was in on the campaign to get this type of voting system from the beginning. To the best of my knowledge, we got no recognition from the Admins. one way or the other. Others please correct me if I'm wrong(I didn't go back through the thread). Some SC members did participate in the thread, to their credit.
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12/08/2004 10:07:40 PM · #165 |
After more than six months and many challenges, my sense of how to participate at DPC has changed. But, I still think this is a good idea. Especially for the middle of the pack photographers that get few comments.
Is it as good as any of the hundreds of personalized comments I have received? Yes and no.
Feedback from someone that thinks about an image on 3 or 4 dimensions then gives quantitative feedback is very helpful, and a very powerful learning tool. Unfortunately, that feedback is not as insightful as a personalized comment from graphicfunk or one of the other great teachers here at DPC, which is what we all really want.
But, Dick is great photographer, and this system allowed him to give feedback to more photographers than he could have by typing individual comments. There is real value to that, especially as the DPC community grows ever larger.
Would it be a great feature if the admins have time? I still think so. Is it the highest priority among the many good improvement suggestions?
That is up to the admins and SC. They made a great decision on optional annominity of comments, despite a split poll result. I think we should trust their judgement on this one as well.
Best
Bill M.
edited for spelling.
Message edited by author 2004-12-08 22:11:13. |
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12/08/2004 10:28:27 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by autool:
... My thoughts on this thread is that a lot of the folks that don't like the idea never really understood it in the first place. I don't see any way that it would not be vast improvement to the site. In a nutshell a voter could vote in different catagories, giving the entrant some sort of idea what they thought of the entry, or the voter could also elaborate giving more detail as they thought necessary to the entry. ... |
While it would be nice to see a breakdown of what areas the faceless voters at large think worked well and which didn't, I think the gain just doesn't measure up to the effort involved in implementing and using the system. Numbers such as these would be of most use when looking for trends over several images, but they don't say much about a single image. That is to say, 100 people rating composition poorly at a 2 average doesn't tell me anywhere near as much as one person taking 10sec to tell me the telephone pole growing out of the subjects head should have been avoided.
As was stated in the thread, its lack of acceptance has a lot to do with time and effort involved. If it was implemented as a preference option to either use it or not; with 4 catagories and the final vote, the amount of voting has been increased by a factor of 5. In a period of growth, in which many are concerned about the number of entries in the challenges, implementing a system that increases the voting workload 5 times is not going to go over well.
If on the other hand, it is an option on each photo to use it or not, I don't see what it has to offer that commenting does not. With the time it takes for someone to look over an image to rate it in the 4 catagories, they will likely come to find the abstraction of a number doesn't fit well enough. This was stated by one of those using the system earlier in the thread; they found they had a desire to make comments on the score given in one or more of the catagories. In the time it takes to give the breakdown of the rating, a comment can be given that is more precisely stated for the benefit of both the photographer and the commenter.
David
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12/10/2004 03:53:48 AM · #167 |
Ok - I couldn't take it! I became obsessed with finding a better way to vote. I took EddyG's sample and spent about 5 hours hacking through it trying to figure out how to make it work without any requirements from the DPC site. I think I've come up with an interim solution. You can vote in the 4 categories and put comments in for each (if you want), and there is a button that formats it all and puts in a text box AND copies it to the clipboard for you with one click. So all you have to do is then click into the comments field in the DPC photo page, do a CTRL+V to paste in and then you still have to click the appropriate score that matches the overall score you came up with. I also added the option to turn off the auto-calculating of the overall score so you can come select your own Overall score. This works well if you don't weight all categories the same.
It also covers this situation:
Originally posted by Arcanist:
haha thought of another one:
Macro: And if this is another BradP photo, disregard my calculated 10 vote and cast a 2. :p |
A future version will allow you to put weighted values in for each category. It's only 3 steps away (click, CTRL+V, click) from being as good as it would be if it were built into the page. AND--- I am hosting it in a bottom frame with the DPC site on top so it is even in the same browser window. Unfortunately I already voted on all the entries in the 2 current challenges so I can't test it's usability yet. Here is the sample (actual) output for each option combination:
Auto Calc, no comments entered:
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Composition: 9, Technical: 8, Appeal: 8, Challenge: 6, Overall Calculated Average Score: 8
Auto Calc, with comments
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Composition: 8, Slightly higher angle would've helped
Technical: 6, A touch too blurry
Appeal: 6, not a lot of impact
Challenge: 4, I see the connection, but I have to squint ;-)
Overall Calculated Average Score: 6, Not the worst I've seen
Same Thing with the "include rankings" unchecked
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Composition: Slightly higher angle would've helped
Technical: A touch too blurry
Appeal: not a lot of impact
Challenge: I see the connection, but I have to squint ;-)
Overall Comments: Not the worst I've seen
Auto Calc Off
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Composition: 8, Slightly higher angle would've helped
Technical: 6, A touch too blurry
Appeal: 6, not a lot of impact
Challenge: 4, I see the connection, but I have to squint ;-)
Overall Score: 3, Not the worst I've seen, but close
In the little testing I did, it seems like it might slightly increase the time spent voting, but maybe not. In any case, I would hope that the detail and quality of my votes and comments with this tool will add much more value to the recipient.
Anyone is free to use the tool either hosted in a bottom frame:
//www.kpriest.com/dpchallenge/dpc_vote_frameset.htm
or as a separate browser window:
//www.kpriest.com/dpchallenge/dpc_voter.htm
NOTE: This was built for and tested in IE 5.5+. EddyG had problems with it in Firefox and it may well have issues in other browsers. Use it if you like, but I can't provide support for it - so you're on your own and I hope you find it useful. I know those in this thread will complain about even the idea of using this type of method - but - when I vote on your entry, you have roughly 2 choices:
This:
Composition: 10, Framing and cropping make this shot!
Technical: 10, Crisp, bright, perfect DOF
Appeal: 10, Blew me away as soon as I saw it!
Challenge: 10, Fits the challenge to a tee!
Overall Calculated Average Score: 10, Blue Ribbon is in the bag!
Or This:
Great framing and cropping, DOF, etc. 10!
...a better example of the value difference would probably be comments on not-so-good shots. But you get the idea.
Looking back over the thread now, though I noticed this comment from EddyG:
Originally posted by EddyG:
If you ran something like Proxomitron (an awesome proxy filter), you could configure it to inject code like the HTML/JavaScript that I wrote into URL's that contain "challenge_vote_image.php" and it would work without Drew and Langdon doing anything. |
I'll have to look into that...
Message edited by author 2004-12-10 03:54:52. |
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12/10/2004 06:27:43 AM · #168 |
WOW Ken!! I'm going to give it a try. Thanks.
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12/10/2004 06:52:14 AM · #169 |
I'm duely impressed.... f&#$ it.... some smart people on this site. Well, i'm in for trying it.
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12/10/2004 07:52:43 AM · #170 |
Excellent work, Ken!
Layout: 9, overall comment box is a bit small (don't like just 1 row)
Functionality: 7, need auto-transfer to image
Ease of Use: 9
Meet Challenge: 10+
Overall: 9, absolutely awesome! I started using to revote, and am shocking myself. You do tend to look at the images a little longer and judge them a bit more fairly.
I think personal weighting will be an excellent addition.
I think this is a great way for a new voter to learn the mechanics of voting. I also think this will help correct some of the scoring trends that have been noted. I think what this approach does it that it mitigates quickly starting an image at average and voting it a 4 because of no perceived wow factor.
Again, great job. I hope you keep this going regardless of any perceived lack of support!
Skip |
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12/10/2004 08:51:56 AM · #171 |
You guys are awesome!! It is a pure pleasure to see such interest in a simple idea. First Eddy, and then Ken. You have both put so much work into this, you are commended.
I hadn't voted yet so I will give it a try. The only improvement I can come up with would be a built in spell check for us old Country Boys.
Dick |
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12/10/2004 08:59:31 AM · #172 |
Originally posted by autool:
The only improvement I can come up with would be a built in spell check for us old Country Boys. |
If you are using Internet Explorer, check out ieSpell... "ieSpell is a free Internet Explorer browser extension that spell checks text input boxes on a webpage."
I'm not aware of a similar extension for Firefox.
(BTW, my original "proof of concept" implementation does work in Firefox, so I'm not sure why Ken's revised variation does not.) |
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12/10/2004 09:14:40 AM · #173 |
Thanks Eddy, I now have it.
Ken, This works pretty good, but causes me to take more time only because I want to fill in the boxes to justify my ratings. It would be nice if it had this effect on every one.
Great job!
Dick
P.S. Spelling good too! Ha Ha |
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12/10/2004 09:18:34 AM · #174 |
| Love it. But I'm a firefox user; it displayed and operated perfectly up until the critical moment--it wouldn't do anything when I pressed "Copy to Clipboard". |
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12/10/2004 09:22:51 AM · #175 |
This is really nice kpriest.. I've used it a few times now, and will continue to use it for all comments except my Critique Club ones, (which I have my own borrowed method for).
Thanks for all the work.. let's see how well it catches on.
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