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01/07/2009 09:16:23 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by angkokweng:
Hello scalvert,
Just wondering ... if you ask your employee to do a specific task in order to get your desired result, but he/she does it his/her way, ignoring your instruction and thus not delivering your desired result, would you be frustrated?
Ang |
and while we're at it we can change the site name to goodemployee.com |
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01/07/2009 09:36:13 PM · #152 |
Wait--we get paid to be here?!? This is a JOB? We must Comply With Instructions to the Letter, Interpretation is by DNMC Police?
Wow, silly me. I thought we paid to be here, to have fun and learn things. I thought if we don't find what we want here, we can leave. I didn't know votes were so scandal-ridden and un-investigated.
Seriously: if the "description" is precise to the letter, then the DNMC Police can go crazy. The more anal will toss their impotent 1's around no matter what--it is their source of pleasure here, I think. Some of them seem to take great delight in it, and in bragging about doing it whenever the opportunity presents itself.
But when the description is imprecise, when it is clear that there is room for interpretation, we should, in general, be a bit open to an interpretation that differs from our own. We might learn to see something in a new way.
paraphrase (best I can remember) of Ray Bradbury:
"Isn't that what life is all about? The ability to go around and look out at something through another's eyes and say 'Oh, so that's how you see it? Well, now, that is interesting! I must remember that.'"
and one more from him, relevant to scores and ribbons:
"You have to know how to accept rejection and reject acceptance."
Message edited by author 2009-01-07 21:39:41. |
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01/07/2009 09:40:41 PM · #153 |
| maybe the site should just run Free Study challenges and nothing else ;) |
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01/07/2009 09:58:38 PM · #154 |
I think Themed challenges are fine, and rigidity of interpretation can be left to the contributors who value that, and to the voters who value that. There is benefit from working within the perceived constraints.
There is ALSO benefit from seeing another's honest but different interpretation.
I think most voter's can and do distinguish between honest differences of interpretation and lame, obvious shoe-horns.
There is so much variation on how voter's actually vote, how they award scores, that to attempt to rigidly constrain the entrants' abilities to interpret will gain nothing in terms of fair scoring and awarding of ribbons, but will risk much in the art and the variety we now enjoy. One would have to go to a juried vote, so that the same standard could be applied to each entry.
I will just say, as I did in an earlier post, that Ribbons and Scores are taken way too seriously by some here, and they are, in my opinion, the least "valuable" things this site has to offer. Someday, if I am both good and lucky, I might get one of Posthumous 's handy-awards, or one of the others, and that will mean quite a lot more, I think.... |
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01/07/2009 10:09:18 PM · #155 |
| Perhaps if during the challenge, the title of the photo were hidden? That way, the voter would only have the challenges' title and description and of course the photo, to influence their opinion... |
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01/07/2009 10:09:37 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by chromeydome:
I will just say, as I did in an earlier post, that Ribbons and Scores are taken way too seriously by some here, and they are, in my opinion, the least "valuable" things this site has to offer. Someday, if I am both good and lucky, I might get one of Posthumous 's handy-awards, or one of the others, and that will mean quite a lot more, I think.... |
I completely agree with you here, one of the real benefits I get from the site is forcing me to be creative in my thinking for the themes, and then to pull that off compositionally. Right now I know while I may be on theme (I hope), my shots aren't great, and that's good, because it gives me something to srive for. I value the comments, during voting, after voting and particularly side challenges, more than anything, this is how I will learn, and that is why I'm here!
I've found I enjoy my photography a whole lot more working with the themed challenges on this site, it is a real personal challenge to me to see what I can come up with. When I submit a shot I already know if I love it or not, and if the public as a whole agrees with me then great.
I hope I never get drawn into the repeating a shot over and over again because I know it will score well way of thinking, because if I do that then I have lost my way and my whole reason for being here. If however I ever do ribbon then I'll be delighted, but I hope it's on theme! |
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01/07/2009 11:13:43 PM · #157 |
Hello chromeydome,
Don't get me wrong here. Ribbon is NOT everything. I totally agree with you. Learning is the main thing why I am here. But if learning that by not meeting the task could win me a ribbon, I won't feel happy even if I'm awarded a ribbon, because deep in my heart, I know that my photo clearly DNMC. If learning that I could loosely interpret a clearly written task: "Create a photo in which a transparent or semi-transparent object is between you and your subject.", then my interpretation has defeated the purpose of joining the challenge in the first place. It could be seen as me joining to win, and not so much of taking up the challenge (adhering to the task) to challenge myself, and to create a photo to win. These two objectives are different in my opinion. Again, it's not about winning, it's about paying close attention to the task.
Since in DPC we can interpret anything we like, and as long as we have good photography techniques and good skill in editing, this means we can submit any kind of photo to any challenge. Is DPC heading this way?
Since knowing that some voters vote for photographs and not for the task, I honestly feel that as a photographer, it's my duty to follow the task/description/requirement in the challenge. Excel in staying true to the challenge and shoot a nice outstanding photo. That's what my heart is telling me.
Ang
Originally posted by chromeydome:
I think Themed challenges are fine, and rigidity of interpretation can be left to the contributors who value that, and to the voters who value that. There is benefit from working within the perceived constraints.
There is ALSO benefit from seeing another's honest but different interpretation.
I think most voter's can and do distinguish between honest differences of interpretation and lame, obvious shoe-horns.
There is so much variation on how voter's actually vote, how they award scores, that to attempt to rigidly constrain the entrants' abilities to interpret will gain nothing in terms of fair scoring and awarding of ribbons, but will risk much in the art and the variety we now enjoy. One would have to go to a juried vote, so that the same standard could be applied to each entry.
I will just say, as I did in an earlier post, that Ribbons and Scores are taken way too seriously by some here, and they are, in my opinion, the least "valuable" things this site has to offer. Someday, if I am both good and lucky, I might get one of Posthumous 's handy-awards, or one of the others, and that will mean quite a lot more, I think.... |
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01/07/2009 11:30:50 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by angkokweng:
Excel in staying true to the challenge and shoot a nice outstanding photo. That's what my heart is telling me.
Ang
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Hello to you, Ang :-) I think that is EXACTLY what you should do, sir. As you know, I have already demonstrated that I enjoy your interpretation and effort for the Transparency challenge. You know what you want to do and how you want to do it, so you will be able to make use of this site to suit your needs, and the rest of us will benefit because we will get to see your work. And, by so doing, if you do win a ribbon, you will have done it in a way that is true to yourself, as you say. So you are not at at risk, since you will not enter a photo that you feel was DNMC, but was "popular" instead. Nothing prevents you from following your heart and your convictions in creating your images and entering challenges.
Nothing prevents others from doing the same, or from doing things differently than you would. I submit that a few other photographers being a bit more loose in interpreting a challenge description, or the voters being ready to accept such entries harms your purpose here only if your primary or only purpose here is to win a ribbon.
As you are here longer, you may see that loose interpretation of a challenge is not the dominate characteristic of ribbon winners. I think there are certain aesthetics, styles, subjects that seem to be generally more well-received here. Accept that and STILL do your own style rather than conform, and I feel you will then get the most from this community, and you will give more to this community, as well.
I look forward to seeing more work from you, sir.
Message edited by author 2009-01-07 23:31:52. |
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01/07/2009 11:31:25 PM · #159 |
| I would assume that many/most/a lot/some(?) of DNMC photos actually *do* meet the challenge in the eyes of the photographer, so they probably do not feel in their heart, that the photo is a DNMC. I currently have a photo that I believe is getting low votes for that very reason, but it has personal meaning to me and does meet the criteria in my eyes. I'm not surprised by the low votes it's getting, and I can see that I've failed to connect with the voters in the sense that they are not seeing the connection to the challenge, but I don't think I've done anything wrong by entering an image that has meaning in the way that I interpret it. |
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01/07/2009 11:38:20 PM · #160 |
...
Message edited by author 2009-01-08 02:26:17. |
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01/07/2009 11:41:25 PM · #161 |
Originally posted by mindbottling:
I would assume that many/most/a lot/some(?) of DNMC photos actually *do* meet the challenge in the eyes of the photographer, so they probably do not feel in their heart, that the photo is a DNMC. I currently have a photo that I believe is getting low votes for that very reason, but it has personal meaning to me and does meet the criteria in my eyes. I'm not surprised by the low votes it's getting, and I can see that I've failed to connect with the voters in the sense that they are not seeing the connection to the challenge, but I don't think I've done anything wrong by entering an image that has meaning in the way that I interpret it. |
There are some hard-core 1-voting DNMC cops out there, but not too many I don't think. I would rather see a photo that you feel strongly about, that matters to you, than one "cranked" out soley to "meet" a challenge theme.
I do think that most voters can distinguish between a differing interpretation of a challenge theme and a forced-entry shoehorn. But sometimes an image just does not connect with the viewers: it can be the demographic here, it can be the photographer's failure to express themselves clearly, it can be that the meaning is too personal and private to the photographer, it can be many things. A photographer can choose to spend some time trying to discern and learn from those events, or not.
One can emulate the styles and techniques of ribbon winning images in order to learn a technique, and a score may be a "good grade" to reward such learning. One can go to Yosemite and put ones tripod in the same spot that Ansel Adams placed his so long ago.
But I would still rather see such acquired skill and knowledge turned back to creating personal, meaningful images so that I get to see things thru your eyes. |
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01/07/2009 11:57:46 PM · #162 |
Originally posted by chromeydome:
I do think that most voters can distinguish between a differing interpretation of a challenge theme and a forced-entry shoehorn. But sometimes an image just does not connect with the viewers: it can be the demographic here, it can be the photographer's failure to express themselves clearly, it can be that the meaning is too personal and private to the photographer, it can be many things. A photographer can choose to spend some time trying to discern and learn from those events, or not.
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I definitely agree with this, though to me it seems (based on the comments I'm receiving) that the DNMC police are out in full force. I'm not at all disappointed in my score. I'd much rather enter a photo that is meaningful to me than one that may have a more literal relationship to the challenge topic, but that I'm not as happy with. I have plenty to learn, no doubt about that, and perhaps most importantly how to convey my meaning to others, but I'm not interested in limiting the interpretation of the challenging topics. I'd rather continue to put up with this debate which will continue long after this thread dies. |
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01/08/2009 09:52:16 AM · #163 |
I can't be too vicious, as I don't enter any challenges myself, but I do look at them often. I find that many people try too hard to think out of the box or shoehorn an image into a challege via witty title.
I think the challenge isn't to get a ribbon, but to be able to think creatively to accomplish an assigned task...not to think of a way to creatively bypass the assigned task. I think a lot of people have pigeonholed themselves into creative predictability, which I find to be the worst thing possible for a photographer. I mean predictability is fine when it is in the sense of people predicting that you will generate a great image, but a detriment when they know that no matter what, they are going to see the same image (or variations of) from you.
There are many DPC users that we can know who the image is as we go through the voting, because we've seen that image in every challenge, be it a water drop, a wine glass of food colored water, a macro of a bug, a macro of a plant, etc. Not saying that they aren't amazing images, but saying that you've become a one trick pony, and you've stifled your creative growth by refusing to leave your comfort zone.
I forget where I was going with this, but yeah. |
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01/08/2009 10:18:32 AM · #164 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
Not saying that they aren't amazing images, but saying that you've become a one trick pony, and you've stifled your creative growth by refusing to leave your comfort zone.
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Are you suggesting a new challenge?
Challenge Title: One Trick Pony. Create the same image you've been trotting out for the last 2 years.
Edit rules: Whatever's in you comfort zone.
Additional limitations: Must have a contrived title. |
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01/08/2009 10:29:32 AM · #165 |
Originally posted by mikeee:
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
Not saying that they aren't amazing images, but saying that you've become a one trick pony, and you've stifled your creative growth by refusing to leave your comfort zone.
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Are you suggesting a new challenge?
Challenge Title: One Trick Pony. Create the same image you've been trotting out for the last 2 years.
Edit rules: Whatever's in you comfort zone.
Additional limitations: Must have a contrived title. |
Ha! I would just put in a ton of fish eyed band photos with contrasty lighting. |
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01/08/2009 11:19:45 AM · #166 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
I can't be too vicious, as I don't enter any challenges myself, but I do look at them often. I find that many people try too hard to think out of the box or shoehorn an image into a challege via witty title.
I think the challenge isn't to get a ribbon, but to be able to think creatively to accomplish an assigned task...not to think of a way to creatively bypass the assigned task. I think a lot of people have pigeonholed themselves into creative predictability, which I find to be the worst thing possible for a photographer. I mean predictability is fine when it is in the sense of people predicting that you will generate a great image, but a detriment when they know that no matter what, they are going to see the same image (or variations of) from you.
There are many DPC users that we can know who the image is as we go through the voting, because we've seen that image in every challenge, be it a water drop, a wine glass of food colored water, a macro of a bug, a macro of a plant, etc. Not saying that they aren't amazing images, but saying that you've become a one trick pony, and you've stifled your creative growth by refusing to leave your comfort zone.
I forget where I was going with this, but yeah. |
There is a real tension in that, between the lack of creative growth by doing the same thing over and over, and on the flip side, jumping around from subject and style, week in , week out, never spending the time to actually get good at anything. Jack of all trades and all that.
DPC certainly promotes the idea of never settling on a style or subject long enough to get good at it. Some people push back against that I suppose by exploring the depths of one area a bit more than others. |
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01/08/2009 11:27:04 AM · #167 |
I think the whole point of photography is to apply your personal style to a task, but at the same time doing the same thing time after time isn't your style, its your niche or routine. I take a lot of dark and brooding images now a days, Id say thats my style. I can apply my style to numerous things. I wouldn't consider one type of image a style, as that image can't be applied in a meaningful way across the board.
But its all opinions, and apparently the voters here don't get tired of seeing the same things over and over, so why stop?
I mean I know the goal for many people here is to have a digital showcase of pixel ribbons, so they adhere to formulas and proven practices, and continue to get the same results and electronic satisfaction of internet fandom, but personally I come on here to see what people are doing and to grow and learn from it. I hate when my stuff gets too static, when I dont see development in my style and technique, but I also couldn't care less about a ribbon, I guess thats the trade off. |
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01/09/2009 11:40:24 AM · #168 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
DPC certainly promotes the idea of never settling on a style or subject long enough to get good at it. Some people push back against that I suppose by exploring the depths of one area a bit more than others. |
I think there's a difference between exploring a concept or idea and taking the exact same shot over and over again to win more and more ribbons. It's mostly an exercise in playing off the noobs at a point.
Personally, I find it tedious to see the same shot on the front page week after week. How much pride can you take constantly winning for the same thing. After you've won your 15th Chili making contest do you still keep entering them? For me it would be boring after the second or third. After that, move on.
I shoot a lot of different things but also dig deep into some areas that I like, so I understand what you're saying. At the same time I really admire guys like Enzo (  hotpasta) for doing different things all the time and nailing them. The guy has talent and a great eye for the entire spectrum. I'd love to see him in the side Challenges.
Message edited by author 2009-01-09 11:51:14. |
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02/05/2009 12:31:51 AM · #169 |
quote=mindbottling] Problem with "hard rules" is that they kind of aren't. Often one person's interpretation of the challenge is far different from another's. It seems that speed voters sometimes skim through the images without really looking at what the photographer was trying to convey, voting down anything that doesn't meet their interpretation of the challenge theme. So to you, it might not meet the challenge, but to someone else it does. Which is why those "hard rules" aren't very effective. Personally, I like the diverse interpretations, though I do occasionally find myself scratching my head. [/quote]
Message edited by author 2009-02-05 00:34:19. |
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02/05/2009 11:55:14 AM · #170 |
The biggest problem that I see, so far, is that sunsets seem to be the favorite thing to vote on--and they fit most of the challenges, (end, silence... etc) It seems that most things have a hard time competing with sunsets.
Perhaps there should be an additional challenge rule: silence III-but no sunsets!
(by the way, I voted a lot of the sunsets high in each category as well--I thought they were spectacular. The just keep coming back...) |
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02/05/2009 12:08:34 PM · #171 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
The biggest problem that I see, so far, is that sunsets seem to be the favorite thing to vote on--and they fit most of the challenges, (end, silence... etc) It seems that most things have a hard time competing with sunsets. ... |
I think sunrise is more suited to 'Silence' myself. ;-P |
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02/05/2009 01:05:07 PM · #172 |
| I came in dead last in the Silence challenge, no surprise. I think maybe most of the people took Silence to mean take a picture of something that ordinarly makes noise obviously in the act of making no sound, or a landscape. We could tighten up the Apple II description to read take a picture of one edible apple with a red skin, a landscape in the BG is optional. (joke) I'm not here for the photo-assignment aspect of the challenges. If I wanted that, or was good at it, I'd be a working photographer. I'm in it for the challenge. Some of you seem to feel that challenges are meant to be an assignment box we have to stay in, some of you seem to feel the challenge description is a starting-point. I like the variety. |
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02/05/2009 01:23:05 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
...it did not meet the challege as the main subject was not seen through anything transparent. |
The description is a guideline, not a rule or checklist, ...
The challenge/topic was Transparency. THAT'S what the rules ask us to take into consideration (not necessarily the description). The description might or might not be helpful as guidance for the sort of thing the voters expect to see, but it's certainly not the final word on what's possible. ... |
???! Many times (not always) a challenge description is a key part of the challenge - a defining or direction applied to the topic. Certainly the description was applicable to the transparency challenge.
"Create a photo in which a transparent or semi-transparent object is between you and your subject."
How can you read that and NOT see how it should influence the photo submission AND voting of the challenge?
I didn't participate in this challenge, but had I voted there certainly would have been a minor adjustment to the final results. |
I just assumed that every photo would HAVE to meet the challenge, since the lens is a transparent object between you and your subject :) |
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02/05/2009 01:46:48 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by k4ffy:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
"Create a photo in which a transparent or semi-transparent object is between you and your subject." |
I just assumed that every photo would HAVE to meet the challenge, since the lens is a transparent object between you and your subject :) |
Checkmate! Likewise, every entry met the Silence challenge since JPEGs don't have audio. ;-)
Message edited by author 2009-02-05 13:48:19. |
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02/05/2009 01:48:43 PM · #175 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by k4ffy:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
"Create a photo in which a transparent or semi-transparent object is between you and your subject." |
I just assumed that every photo would HAVE to meet the challenge, since the lens is a transparent object between you and your subject :) |
Checkmate! Likewise, every entry met the Silence challenge since JPEGs don't have audio. ;-) |
Damn! I thought that game was LONG over. :-P |
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