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01/07/2009 06:29:49 AM · #26 |
The yellow ribbon winner is "Bubbles". Which one is the "transparent object"? Is it the bubbles or the water? The "you" is the photographer. Which one is the subject? Is it the lady or the fish? If it's the lady, then the bubbles are the "transparent object". If it's the fish, then the water is the "transparent object". I assume that the lady is the "subject" since our eyes are drawn to her first. The winner said, "This was originally my concept for the Asia challenge, but after I got the set of photos onto my computer I realized this didn't say "Asia" as strong as I thought my challenge entry did. I thought I would submit this shot into the free study, but then I noticed the transparency challenge going on and realized it fit perfectly." Voters like the beautiful image, gorgeous model, its surreality and composition.
I think that in this case we can safely say the water is transparent and the objects we see through the water are the subject, irrespective of the title of "Bubbles" |
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01/07/2009 07:36:06 AM · #27 |
Hello Lutchenko,
Thanks for your input. I wish to add something to my earlier post.
The blue ribbon --> the subject is the splash. There's no transparent object between the splash and the photographer.
The red ribbon --> the subject is the glasses. There's no transparent object between the glasses and the photographer.
The yellow ribbon --> the subject is the lady/fish. Water/bubble is the transparent object between the lady/fish and the photographer.
In my conclusion, the yellow ribbon met the challenge. However, voters love looking at the beautiful splash and the smooth glasses.
Thanks.
Ang
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
I think that in this case we can safely say the water is transparent and the objects we see through the water are the subject, irrespective of the title of "Bubbles" |
Message edited by author 2009-01-07 07:38:22. |
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01/07/2009 07:38:15 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by angkokweng:
Hello Everyone,
I'm not sure whether this has been discussed before or not. There are photos which ranked very high in the post challenge result, however, these photos do not meet the challenge. Many voters, in my opinion, seem to be drawn by the beauty of the post edited photos, and not judging whether it meets the challenge or not.
Just my opinion. Thanks.
Ang |
Yep... many people here wrongly vote on the quality of the image first and then only slightly penalize for FAILING to meet the challenge.
Some of us vote correctly. :) |
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01/07/2009 08:18:50 AM · #29 |
Hi Ang
Yes I did understand what you were getting at and I agree with you.
I, like HawkeyeLonewolf vote in what I believe is the correct manner |
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01/07/2009 08:19:23 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by angkokweng:
Hello Everyone,
I'm not sure whether this has been discussed before or not. There are photos which ranked very high in the post challenge result, however, these photos do not meet the challenge. Many voters, in my opinion, seem to be drawn by the beauty of the post edited photos, and not judging whether it meets the challenge or not.
Just my opinion. Thanks.
Ang |
Yep... many people here wrongly vote on the quality of the image first and then only slightly penalize for FAILING to meet the challenge.
Some of us vote correctly. :) |
There is a difference between commenting on how one forms their individual votes and stating a certain way is more or less correct, especially in the presence of self-admitted new users. To define the nature and content of voting is to eliminate the concept entirely. At that length, we might as well simply feed the photo into a pre-approved checklist (which, and I believe most would agree with me on this, has no semblence to art). Said in jest or not, I think a lot of people really feel this way, about there being a correct or incorrect way to vote.
Before a user asks about how to vote, and before veteran members explain their voting master plan, both sides need to remember what the concept of 'the vote' really boils down to:
1 a: a usually formal expression of opinion or will in response to a proposed decision ; especially : one given as an indication of approval or disapproval of a proposal, motion, or candidate for office b: the total number of such expressions of opinion made known at a single time (as at an election) c: an expression of opinion or preference that resembles a vote d: ballot 1 (Source: Merriam-Webster (bold added))
Do you really need to ask what your own opinion is?
Should members really imply their opinion is "correct"?
Resoundingly, the answer should be no to both.
Message edited by author 2009-01-07 08:20:31. |
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01/07/2009 08:37:27 AM · #31 |
| What is the point of holding a subjected challenge if all people are going to do is send in fantastic photos that may win on the photographer's expertise rather than meeting the challenge guidelines? Surely it must be a combination of both with the emphasis being primarily on the selected challenge, followed by what the entrant can submit to gain acceptance of their photo in the challenge, as well as photographically. Otherwise why have challenges at all? |
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01/07/2009 08:42:58 AM · #32 |
If we wish to go into definition of words then I guess we can all find definitions to suit our particular
opinion
For Example Oxford English Dictionary:
Vote (A formal indication of a choice between two or more candidates or courses of action)
Candidate (A person or thing regarded as suitable for a particular fate, treatment, or position)
Suitable (Right or appropriate for a particular person, purpose, or situation)
In this case if a particular challenge states what the photograph should be based upon and/or contain, it
is safe to say that if it doesn't comply with this then it is not Right or Appropriate for the challenge and
hence is not a Suitable. If it is not Suitable then it can not be a Candidate ergo not eligible for votes.
However that being said I believe that all we are getting at here is that if the subject/title of the challenge
has more or less no relevance then why not simply run free challenges?
Message edited by author 2009-01-07 08:44:16. |
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01/07/2009 08:52:57 AM · #33 |
I am personally in agreement with the statement that there is no point for a challenge if nobody pays attention to it.
However, I think that people saying absolutely how to vote, one way or the other, is totalitarian and completely missing the idea of a public vote. The public vote is to determine the public's opinion. Opinions should not be tampered with or swayed by other members. If you think a photo is terrible because it doesn't meet the challenge, vote it low. If you don't share this opinion, don't vote it low-
But first and foremost, VOTE YOUR OPINION.
Portraying a vote as having a right and a wrong response is a dangerous path to go down.
Per your definition of vote, just as mine, if there is no opinion (read: choice) the vote is pointless.
I am not attacking your personal choice for how you vote. That is your choice. I just don't think that new users should be subjected to such strong opinions on what is and isn't suitable voting. It is, in essence, training newcomers to vote like you want, and since the opinions of veterans are taken stronger than newcomers, a dangerous relationship is created. |
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01/07/2009 09:00:26 AM · #34 |
This other site I currently am involved with for more than just photography,Worth1000, IS way, way more strict about challenge rules, and general rules.
There set up is better in some ways...and in some ways not so good.
The bottom line is this with this site.
The disqualify imeadiatly if the challenge or the rule sets have been violated in any way shape or form. AND, the more complicated the challenge, the more it is required for the artist to on there game for quality...or the submission will be disqualified.
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01/07/2009 09:02:47 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
I am personally in agreement with the statement that there is no point for a challenge if nobody pays attention to it.
However, I think that people saying absolutely how to vote, one way or the other, is totalitarian and completely missing the idea of a public vote. The public vote is to determine the public's opinion. Opinions should not be tampered with or swayed by other members. If you think a photo is terrible because it doesn't meet the challenge, vote it low. If you don't share this opinion, don't vote it low-
But first and foremost, VOTE YOUR OPINION.
Portraying a vote as having a right and a wrong response is a dangerous path to go down.
Per your definition of vote, just as mine, if there is no opinion (read: choice) the vote is pointless.
I am not attacking your personal choice for how you vote. That is your choice. I just don't think that new users should be subjected to such strong opinions on what is and isn't suitable voting. It is, in essence, training newcomers to vote like you want, and since the opinions of veterans are taken stronger than newcomers, a dangerous relationship is created. |
To be totally honest I don't actually mind how people vote provided they are not doing so in a tactical way to improve their own position relative to others.
I agree that we should not try to influence how others vote but by the same token I think that people should at least make some effort to try and comply with the challenge
I'm only getting drawn into this as I'm off work today and bored lol
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01/07/2009 09:05:55 AM · #36 |
I think some of the photographers loosely interpret the challenge and a lot of voters don't read or understand the description. The "Warm colors" challenge was an example of this. I had an entry of an orangey brown squirrel which I think would have done extremely well in a wildlife challenge, but the comments told me that many voters were expecting a "conveyance of warmth", not simply the usage of warm colors. Many others also got a lot of low DNMC votes for entries that I thought met the challenge well.
It's a fine line and it's hard to know how the voters will interpret things. This is part of why you need to take final scores with a grain of salt and interpret all the results and comments. |
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01/07/2009 09:05:56 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Yep... many people here wrongly vote on the quality of the image first and then only slightly penalize for FAILING to meet the challenge.
Some of us vote correctly. :) |
Thanks for my daily laugh -- I think you summarized my feelings exactly. I'll only add that that being correct and knowing that majority of the site feels otherwise is a little frustrating. And in their defense, those "incorrect members" are pretty sure that they are "correct" and feel that we are the "incorrect ones". I guess as long as we are polite to each other DPC will continue to exist and thrive. |
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01/07/2009 09:09:17 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by Man_Called_Horse:
This other site I currently am involved with for more than just photography,Worth1000, IS way, way more strict about challenge rules, and general rules. |
An excellent site where I participated in a few contests before I found DPC. I still enjoy popping over there to see what people are doing, but I didn't like the points system for being able to play. |
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01/07/2009 09:12:04 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by angkokweng:
Many voters, in my opinion, seem to be drawn by the beauty of the post edited photos, and not judging whether it meets the challenge or not.
Just my opinion. Thanks.
Ang |
I started out very strict on challenge compliance. Not so much now, unless the description mandates it. Beauty will always
sway my vote. Especially if she's standing beside me. |
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01/07/2009 09:15:21 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
To be totally honest I don't actually mind how people vote provided they are not doing so in a tactical way to improve their own position relative to others.
I agree that we should not try to influence how others vote but by the same token I think that people should at least make some effort to try and comply with the challenge
I'm only getting drawn into this as I'm off work today and bored lol |
Then I see we are pretty much entirely in agreement here :)
It just seems to me that it is really easy to come off as very authoritative in these threads, and since they are most often created by newer users, see it to be a somewhat bad combination. Like I said, I know  HawkeyeLonewolf was saying that in jest, but I think that many people actually think that way and it shows in threads like this. The huge variety of ways people vote is a good thing. Factions are good. (never though I would be referencing the Federalist Papers on a photography forum- ha) |
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01/07/2009 09:28:03 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
I think it would be an interesting exercise for one week if the challenges were to be voted upon exclusively by the SC members as in that way I for one would expect meeting the challenge to play a big part in the score a photograph makes, as after all the SC members invest their time and effort thinking up the topics. |
While it has already been noted that the site owner picks the topics. I think it would be a great idea to have a SC scored challenge.
They are "expert" enough for me, it bypasses the arguing over whom to choose to be on the panel, and supposedly the SC has some idea of what the site should/does mean/stand for. I'd love to see how the SC would score a challenge, just one time. It would be interesting to see how much different, if any, things would shake out.
Perhaps it might be possible to extract the SC votes from a previous challenge, and show how things would have resulted that way? I have not interest in knowing how they voted individually, but as a group it might be enlightening.
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01/07/2009 09:28:17 AM · #42 |
Right I think that this is a topic that will go on forever so I for one will now bow out of the thread
but thank everyone involved for a the entertainment lol |
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01/07/2009 09:29:06 AM · #43 |
I am not sure but it appears a lot of voters just look at the challenge name and never look at the description before voting, In this case I would bet most voters just looked to see if there was something transparent and never realized the shot should have something transparent between the camera and subject.
I think it is sad that voters do not always take the challenge subject seriously because people who really take the time to try to fulfill the entire challenge criteria do not always do as well as they probably should. Like others have said, nothing against the top shots but this challenge was a great example of how shooting to fulfill the assignment did not help. I always find it odd when people say it does not matter because it is a beautiful shot even though the shot is not what it was supposed to be about. If that is the way challenges are going to be interpreted then why not have them all be free studies? |
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01/07/2009 09:33:48 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by crayon:
VOTE < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 >
MEET CHALLENGE < 1 2 3 4 5 >
;) |
I like this idea. It would be fun to try this for a bit, if for nothing else to see the wild discussions after a challenge is over. |
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01/07/2009 09:36:28 AM · #45 |
| I have been trying to be more lenient in how I judge meeting the challenge, since I have had a few entries of mine killed by DNMC votes when IMO they met the challenge perfectly. If upon initial look, I don't think it meets the challenge, I will look harder and try to see how the photographer may have been trying to interpret the topic. I may still knockoff a few points if I just cannot see the relevance. I will always leave a comment in such cases. |
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01/07/2009 09:40:37 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by angkokweng:
Hello Everyone,
I'm not sure whether this has been discussed before or not. There are photos which ranked very high in the post challenge result, however, these photos do not meet the challenge. Many voters, in my opinion, seem to be drawn by the beauty of the post edited photos, and not judging whether it meets the challenge or not.
Just my opinion. Thanks.
Ang |
Yep... many people here wrongly vote on the quality of the image first and then only slightly penalize for FAILING to meet the challenge.
Some of us vote correctly. :) |
There is a difference between commenting on how one forms their individual votes and stating a certain way is more or less correct, especially in the presence of self-admitted new users. To define the nature and content of voting is to eliminate the concept entirely. At that length, we might as well simply feed the photo into a pre-approved checklist (which, and I believe most would agree with me on this, has no semblence to art). Said in jest or not, I think a lot of people really feel this way, about there being a correct or incorrect way to vote.
Before a user asks about how to vote, and before veteran members explain their voting master plan, both sides need to remember what the concept of 'the vote' really boils down to:
1 a: a usually formal expression of opinion or will in response to a proposed decision ; especially : one given as an indication of approval or disapproval of a proposal, motion, or candidate for office b: the total number of such expressions of opinion made known at a single time (as at an election) c: an expression of opinion or preference that resembles a vote d: ballot 1 (Source: Merriam-Webster (bold added))
Do you really need to ask what your own opinion is?
Should members really imply their opinion is "correct"?
Resoundingly, the answer should be no to both. |
I think the opinion rests where on the 1-10 scale a qualifying entry (one that meets the challenge criteria) falls.
Otherwise all challenges are just free studies. Voting in that manner is "WRONG"> :) |
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01/07/2009 09:44:15 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
I am personally in agreement with the statement that there is no point for a challenge if nobody pays attention to it.
However, I think that people saying absolutely how to vote, one way or the other, is totalitarian and completely missing the idea of a public vote. The public vote is to determine the public's opinion. Opinions should not be tampered with or swayed by other members. If you think a photo is terrible because it doesn't meet the challenge, vote it low. If you don't share this opinion, don't vote it low-
But first and foremost, VOTE YOUR OPINION.
Portraying a vote as having a right and a wrong response is a dangerous path to go down.
Per your definition of vote, just as mine, if there is no opinion (read: choice) the vote is pointless.
I am not attacking your personal choice for how you vote. That is your choice. I just don't think that new users should be subjected to such strong opinions on what is and isn't suitable voting. It is, in essence, training newcomers to vote like you want, and since the opinions of veterans are taken stronger than newcomers, a dangerous relationship is created. |
It seems you're WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY overthinking this.
Stating voting guidelines as right or wrong is not bad or totalitarian at all -- however your declaration that is is such actually IS what is totalitarian. Ironic, eh?
Telling people how to vote on valid photos would be.
The assumption for the 1-10 scale is that the photo is valid for the challenge. If it's not valid there is no way to express it except with a 1. Correctly anyway. |
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01/07/2009 09:51:13 AM · #48 |
I was going to drop out of this thread but how about this as a concept.
We have the 1 to 10 scale for the photograph that we score in whatever way we see fit.
Then in addition we could have a checkbox for Meets Challenge.
If the box is checked the score stands if it isn't then maybe 10% could be removed
Just a concept nothing more or less than that lol |
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01/07/2009 09:53:17 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by angkokweng:
Hello Everyone,
I'm not sure whether this has been discussed before or not. There are photos which ranked very high in the post challenge result, however, these photos do not meet the challenge. Many voters, in my opinion, seem to be drawn by the beauty of the post edited photos, and not judging whether it meets the challenge or not.
Just my opinion. Thanks.
Ang |
I hope you're right. Now we just have to work on the voters' idea of "beauty." |
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01/07/2009 09:53:49 AM · #50 |
I'll share. |
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