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02/13/2004 04:59:46 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by glimpses:
And to take that photo you spent quite a serious number of dollars (no doubt that a good part of them went in the certainly more more precious rocks of some NASA manager's villa in Tuscany) which could have saved a very big number of lifes if we have to believe to the numbers provided to us on a daily basis from the Charities. |
You are incredibly naive if you think anyone working for NASA is earning enough for an Italian villa.
Yeah, that space program's a big waste ... too bad it led to calculators and integrated circuits and survival "space" blankets and communications satellites and several dozen other technological improvements/developments we take for granted today. That's not the source of "Government waste." We will each pay something like $35 for the space program this year -- we'll owe about $2000 in INTEREST on THIS YEAR'S DEFICIT.
On the photos themselves ... they were labelled -- no one "had" to look. This person is herself the driving force behind this campaign. Are you going to tell her she can't be an activist for sobriety because she was once too pretty? You know, that wasn't her fault either .... |
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02/13/2004 05:37:21 PM · #52 |
{{waves hand frantically in the air}}
Ooh ooh Kavey, I completely agree with you! Well said. :) |
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02/13/2004 05:54:21 PM · #53 |
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02/13/2004 06:37:06 PM · #54 |
Apologizes but I find this thread expired.
We have expressed our opinions and we are entitled to have them different.
We could keep discussing if this and that..
Like for instance: if you put the cheese (like the notice in the subject of a thread) on a mouse trap (like the thread) does it make the mouse responsible of the final outcome?
But I find that to be far behind what was the real matter of this conversation which is remained obscure to even too many partecipants.
This is the world in which we live.
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02/13/2004 06:41:05 PM · #55 |
glimpses: I recognize that it may be a language barrier, but you have yet to make a clear point at all. You seem to be against any form of encouraging people to avoid drunk driving. However, you seem to be in favor of supporting charities? Please try to state your position clearly.
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02/13/2004 06:55:21 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by StevePax:
glimpses: I recognize that it may be a language barrier, but you have yet to make a clear point at all. You seem to be against any form of encouraging people to avoid drunk driving. However, you seem to be in favor of supporting charities? Please try to state your position clearly. |
I felt that the campaign which was published in the thread which started all this was just another blow of the "show business"/"marketing"/"propaganda"/"politics" to the human condition.
Mentioning Charities and NASA at the same time I was trying to reply to Dacrazyrn playing on his (our) level. Is it so forbidden for a stupid mind (like mine) to generate questions/doubts like the following one?
[1] I am constantly bombarded by messages from Charities which inform me that with very little money you can save the life of kids. (I am not questioning their good faith).
[2] At the same time I am bombarded with the enourmous budges of NASA missions, Football and Hollywood stars salaries, (not to mention the most dreadful expenses and budgets that went on war costs..).
Now, assuming that the "stars" are fundamentally very egoist and that who finances war is absolutely criminal (regardless how is named..), we are left with the almighty NASA and the wonderful scientific research which is the love of all us, "intellettual people".
Now the silly question: Does NASA know what Charities are telling me?
Because if they know, it is evident that they have a wrong priority: even the all important scientific research is not as important as the life of many kids. I they do not know, then some Charity should write to them and explain what is the situation.
Very silly, stupid considerations... as I just said. |
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02/13/2004 08:00:09 PM · #57 |
ok...so...i'm lost.
how did posting photos of a young girl involved in a tragedy suddenly become about politics, NASA and the salaries of celebrities???
those photos don't have anything to do with NASA or giving to charities or how much Tom Cruise makes per movie. in my opinion, what they DO deal with is personal responsibility for the drunk driver and the amazing courage of a young girl trying to document her suffering in the hopes it will stop just one person from drinking and driving. |
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02/13/2004 08:37:11 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by sher9204:
in my opinion, what they DO deal with is personal responsibility for the drunk driver and the amazing courage of a young girl trying to document her suffering in the hopes it will stop just one person from drinking and driving. |
That is romanticism and I am not criticizing it.
Still it is weird that those in favour of that campaign moved from ipercynical practicism (it works therefore it's ok) to romanticism (amazing courage to document her suffering).
Yes, the conversation had a few digressions to answer to very different kind of replies, trying to expose a feeling, a perspective and an opinion which, evidently, is very different from those who feel that there is nothing wrong with that thread and the relative campaign.
It is also evident that for someone else (me included) that thread was very disturbing not only for the photos, but mostly for their use, composition, sequence of the storyboard etc.
We cannot try to understand the inverse perception of fairness/unfairness of this initiative without analyzing the complexity of the reality in which we live: there is no workaround for that.
Therefore politics, religion, economy, charities and even the NASA have to come in because they are the major players of our reality and therefore the major responsible of what happens in it.
Too easy (and convenient for somebody) to discharge the entire responsibility of an accident like that on the individual who caused the single accident which, in fact, is (terribly) responsible for that single accident and not the other similar ones.
If, in fact, alchool is such a common problem evidently the source of it (the problem) is elsewhere.
Somebody (defending) the campaign mentioned other "minor" victims of the alcholism like the poor women and kids who are beaten. I just do not understand, nor believe, that those capable of hitting their own family would stop just watching a storyboard.....
We live in a society which expects too much from the individual who, by the way, is nobody compared to the "superstars" which I mentioned because none of them produces new messages but all of them partecipate to the lobby that is the "system".
In order to stop (or reduce) horrors, we need clear and significative signs and actions from the "Establishment" which, instead, sent us much worse and materialist messages while using campaigns like that in a very hypocritical way. |
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02/13/2004 09:11:31 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by glimpses:
Too easy (and convenient for somebody) to discharge the entire responsibility of an accident like that on the individual who caused the single accident which, in fact, is (terribly) responsible for that single accident and not the other similar ones. |
Yup, lost me on that one.
Originally posted by glimpses:
If, in fact, alchool is such a common problem evidently the source of it (the problem) is elsewhere. |
Then what is the source of the alcohol problem?
Originally posted by glimpses:
Somebody (defending) the campaign mentioned other "minor" victims of the alcholism like the poor women and kids who are beaten. I just do not understand, nor believe, that those capable of hitting their own family would stop just watching a storyboard..... |
So, because you don't think that someone who would abuse their family would be changed by this message, it is better to just not try to change people. I find that pretty ridiculous. If even one person thinks twice and decides to not drink & drive, the message was a success.
The way you talk about the "Establishment", this "campaign", the "system", and the evil NASA, I fear you may be suffering from some sort of paranoia.
Message edited by author 2004-02-13 21:12:41.
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02/13/2004 09:14:21 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by glimpses:
Originally posted by sher9204:
in my opinion, what they DO deal with is personal responsibility for the drunk driver and the amazing courage of a young girl trying to document her suffering in the hopes it will stop just one person from drinking and driving. |
That is romanticism and I am not criticizing it.
Still it is weird that those in favour of that campaign moved from ipercynical practicism (it works therefore it's ok) to romanticism (amazing courage to document her suffering).
Yes, the conversation had a few digressions to answer to very different kind of replies, trying to expose a feeling, a perspective and an opinion which, evidently, is very different from those who feel that there is nothing wrong with that thread and the relative campaign.
It is also evident that for someone else (me included) that thread was very disturbing not only for the photos, but mostly for their use, composition, sequence of the storyboard etc.
We cannot try to understand the inverse perception of fairness/unfairness of this initiative without analyzing the complexity of the reality in which we live: there is no workaround for that.
Therefore politics, religion, economy, charities and even the NASA have to come in because they are the major players of our reality and therefore the major responsible of what happens in it.
Too easy (and convenient for somebody) to discharge the entire responsibility of an accident like that on the individual who caused the single accident which, in fact, is (terribly) responsible for that single accident and not the other similar ones.
If, in fact, alchool is such a common problem evidently the source of it (the problem) is elsewhere.
Somebody (defending) the campaign mentioned other "minor" victims of the alcholism like the poor women and kids who are beaten. I just do not understand, nor believe, that those capable of hitting their own family would stop just watching a storyboard.....
We live in a society which expects too much from the individual who, by the way, is nobody compared to the "superstars" which I mentioned because none of them produces new messages but all of them partecipate to the lobby that is the "system".
In order to stop (or reduce) horrors, we need clear and significative signs and actions from the "Establishment" which, instead, sent us much worse and materialist messages while using campaigns like that in a very hypocritical way. |
I'm sorry, but you have yet to make a rational point.
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02/13/2004 09:46:28 PM · #61 |
yeah...um...i'm still lost.
your answer is that we do nothing and wait for the "Establishment" to make changes in our lives? shouldn't we, as individuals, strive to make our own lives better even if it means affecting one person at a time, if necessary?
so, the masses don't fall in step, experience an epiphany and immediately call for a designated driver. does that mean that we shouldn't keep trying to get them off the road? if seeing these photos makes one person stop before driving drunk then this young girl has saved countless lives.
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02/13/2004 10:42:54 PM · #62 |
I can't believe I just read all this and I am still lost too.
It disturbs me when people try to read into something that which is not there. This tragic story of this girl tramatically effected by a drunk driving accident simply is what it is, a campaign about a needless tragedy that has to be prevented int the future. It sure impacted me and I think I will never forget it. Believe it or not society is able to do many things at once. Money can go to a space program because part of society deems that worthy and, amazingly, another part of society is able to put their skills and efforts into effective ad compaigns, like this, to bring public awareness to serious issues. This is only one method of bringing awareness to this issue and there are many other, very different, approaches that are also effective. As disturbing as this is (which is one of the main points) I, for one, am glad I saw it. It really puts life into perspective.
T
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02/14/2004 01:32:58 AM · #63 |
AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! My brain hurts form trying to figure this guys point out. I give up! I can't read this anymore. I hope there is more common sense around than this (but I ask for too much, already).
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02/14/2004 02:21:06 AM · #64 |
I feel that if this girl wants to use herself as an example she ought to be able to do so. There are plenty of examples of people who campaign for other causes. Cancer is one example where people have used their life as an example.
In a free society you are able to do what you like within the limits of the law. This just happens to be what she wants. This also explains why athletes and movie stars have so much money. If people didn't go watch the games or go to the movies and spend their money on entertainment these people wouldn't be rich. In capitalism what something sells for it what it's worth. If it wasn't worth paying an athlete $100 million it wouldn't happen.
On a grand scale this probably shows a lot about people. When it comes down to entertaining ourselves or giving money to causes, we as a society place a pretty penny on fun. |
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02/14/2004 07:15:34 AM · #65 |
glimpses; I suggest that you try to go through what she has gone through. Go and burn yourself almost to death and then try to live that way. Until you do that you can just shut up.
That girl wanted to do this campaign to avoid this happening to more people, she did this to avoid this happening to me and you. If you are honestly trying to say that it is pure evil you can rotten in hell my friend because this was the most noble thing she could do.
I'm just pointing out hard facts when I say that she almost LOOKS like a monster, on the inside she is still a human being. Many people that have had accidents like this hide from the public. Don't want other people to see them. But this one, this one is trying to save as many as she can.
So I stick to my point, unless you go burn your self, you should not try to make little of this campaign and simply shut up ! |
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02/14/2004 08:25:22 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by oskar:
glimpses; I suggest that you try to go through what she has gone through. Go and burn yourself almost to death and then try to live that way. Until you do that you can just shut up. |
Shut up? Man.. there have been wars fought for much less than that.
As far as I am concerned nobody in this forum, nor who posted the original thread, had such an horrible and painful experience.
Still they are talking about this topic.
I suggest something better: let's go all together, "burn ourselves almost to that and then live that way".
Then lets come back here and you can bet that our perspective will certainly be changed and we will be telling very different things from those that we are telling now.
You talk like if I criticized her which never occurred in my sentences.
On the contrary I said that, should the story be exactly as they tell it, should her be really the "driving force" behind this campaign then she is definitely a real angel.
What I believe, is that the campaign is the result of politics and very ambitious of people who never burnt themselves and, if they would, I rather doubt that the experience would mutate them in unselfish people.
=================
Let's try to go to the source of the problem for whoever asked for it:
Originally posted by nborton:
In capitalism what something sells for it what it's worth. If it wasn't worth paying an athlete $100 million it wouldn't happen. |
Sure... than you have a single individual (allegedly a super-athlete, in reality it works pretty differently..) worth $100 million and many unemployed or under-payed who are worth nothing. What most of them would do? Drink to forget....
In REAL capitalism you must be sure that what you pay is REALLY worth the price payed. Because if you put enormous prices and labels on things which are not worth it you create an obscene unbalance.. an unbalance which automatically creates victims.
That's the source of the problem.
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02/14/2004 08:32:49 AM · #67 |
Originally posted by glimpses:
Originally posted by StevePax:
glimpses: I recognize that it may be a language barrier, but you have yet to make a clear point at all. You seem to be against any form of encouraging people to avoid drunk driving. However, you seem to be in favor of supporting charities? Please try to state your position clearly. |
I felt that the campaign which was published in the thread which started all this was just another blow of the "show business"/"marketing"/"propaganda"/"politics" to the human condition.
Mentioning Charities and NASA at the same time I was trying to reply to Dacrazyrn playing on his (our) level. Is it so forbidden for a stupid mind (like mine) to generate questions/doubts like the following one?
[1] I am constantly bombarded by messages from Charities which inform me that with very little money you can save the life of kids. (I am not questioning their good faith).
[2] At the same time I am bombarded with the enourmous budges of NASA missions, Football and Hollywood stars salaries, (not to mention the most dreadful expenses and budgets that went on war costs..).
Now, assuming that the "stars" are fundamentally very egoist and that who finances war is absolutely criminal (regardless how is named..), we are left with the almighty NASA and the wonderful scientific research which is the love of all us, "intellettual people".
Now the silly question: Does NASA know what Charities are telling me?
Because if they know, it is evident that they have a wrong priority: even the all important scientific research is not as important as the life of many kids. I they do not know, then some Charity should write to them and explain what is the situation.
Very silly, stupid considerations... as I just said. |
The dissonance I have with this is that you started out by condeming the very charities you are now claiming to support. They are the ones that use disturbing images to get you to empathise and sympathise with the victims, yet you seem to feel this is about the greatest evil in the world. But a few days later you forget this to start claiming we should be ditching everything to help the people you were originally attacking. |
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02/14/2004 09:30:12 AM · #68 |
Could anyone point me to the original newspaper article of this? Or maybe scan the original article so I can see when it happened and more details about the accident. Didn't someone say it happened 5 miles from them? I would like to see something more substantiated before I give an opinion. So please show me something that was written by a third party so I can believe this. There should be something written up in a newspaper or magazine about her offering to become a spokesperson for this. I would like to see that, too. Documentation. I need documentation.
Why are we so willing to accept something because we can feel pity for the victim? What about all the silent people that have died because a drunk driver hit them? They are easily forgotten. But throw up a picture of a person that has been disfigured and the whole world claims to care. Have the pictures made you go out and become active in MADD, have they made you write a letter to your congressman to provide more money for treatments for people that are acholholics, have they made you take keys away from your friends so they can't drive after they had a little too much? Most likely no. But you have been able to express your horror at looking at the pictures. Everyone in this thread has one thing in common. You each expressed how it was someone else that could have been the driver of that car, no one has said, "OMG, that could have been me."
Also, if you care to notice, if pictures like this are posted, and someone voices their doubts, the community is bound to be outraged. What kind of monster could not be moved by what they see? Maybe it's a monster that can look to the other side and feels that they are being manipulated. It's easy to manipulate a group of people because they, as a group, will jump on the dissenting voice till it is silenced. But their tenderheartedness makes it hard for the group to see that what has been presented to them is not real. They see, they feel and at about that point, their reasoning leaves them.
BTW, I have worked with and supported victims of accidents and hardships within my community, so I am not heartless. I also worked in a burn ward for some years and must say that of all the people I saw, those who had that much damage to their face, did not have the will to live. So, if this is real, that young lady does have a lot of courage. |
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02/14/2004 09:38:22 AM · #69 |
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02/14/2004 10:18:10 AM · #70 |
I should have read that to begin with(head hanging with shame). God must be crying in his heaven at all the pain and destruction that we flawed mortals cause one another.
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02/14/2004 01:09:55 PM · #71 |
| this conversation is making me want to get trashed and snowmoboard! SATURDAY COMES WITH A VENGEANCE! |
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02/14/2004 02:03:24 PM · #72 |
Just FYI, drink driving is extremely common in Texas and in the Austin area. and yes, I have taken keys off friends who were going to drive home after drinking too much. They didn't thank me much for it at the time either, but I still did it.
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02/14/2004 02:09:16 PM · #73 |
| There's a joke/urban legend that there are "black boxes" in cars which can record the occupants' final words just before a crash. In 49 states that is "Oh S***!" In Texas it is "Hold my beer and watch this." |
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02/14/2004 02:46:56 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
There's a joke/urban legend that there are "black boxes" in cars which can record the occupants' final words just before a crash. In 49 states that is "Oh S***!" In Texas it is "Hold my beer and watch this." |
Funny but maybie not the right thread to be making jokes like this one. |
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02/14/2004 05:51:00 PM · #75 |
being tasteful is over-rated. jokes make me laugh.. which is a more immediate preference of mine.
its good to learn, yes - but there are other ways about learning than being subjected to horrible imagery.
..and just because theirs is the prevailing mood or opinion doesn't mean another person's voice should be silenced for running against the grain. kudos on the joke..
i don't imagine i'd rather have read that in any other thread.
Message edited by author 2004-02-14 17:53:11. |
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