Photographic Integrity??? - DPChallenge Forums

02/05/2004 03:53:11 PM · #51

Originally posted by GoldBerry:

I would think that this has alot to do with disqualification since the heightened discussion seems centered around the rules and their interpretation. Leaving the rules wide open with a blurb about photographic integrity and then telling someone their interpration of PI is wrong, wouldn't that naturally progress to a discussion about the rules and what should qualify? And please no one post that voting a '1' for seemingly too much post processing doesn't imply that the photographer's view of PI is wrong, because it most certainly does.

I haven't seen any instances of someone being told their own interpretation of photographic integrity is wrong. The statement I usually make is that 'this photograph does not maintain photographic integrity in my opinion.'

There are a lot of 'definitions' of photographic integrity posted in this thread already so I won't type another one...

MadMordegon

02/05/2004 04:06:55 PM · #52

well now that we have tested the waters on the "advanced editing", id be willing to bet many who voted for it have now changed there mind.

id say we should have another vote on the subject.

02/05/2004 04:42:33 PM · #53

I havne't changed my mind on it. I still believe that phographs should be able to receive any post processing necessary.

GoldBerry

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

02/05/2004 04:49:03 PM · #54

There's no continuity to the rules, I think that's the glaring problem. Giving people the ability to use their disgression and than reigning them in 'after' the fact, is obviously causing riffs and waves. Are these threads going anywhere? Will decisions and rules be changed or should DPCers let it go?

Message edited by author 2004-02-05 16:50:11.

02/05/2004 05:10:22 PM · #55

Originally posted by GoldBerry:

No.. Its not going anywhere because the site wants to stay away from 'digital art' and a lot of the participants don't. The site council is discussing a wording to include with the 'photographic integrity' statement in the rules to make it more clear that 'digital art' should not be an objective of the participants.

GoldBerry

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

02/05/2004 05:12:22 PM · #56

lol so by not going anywhere, you actually meant it IS going somewhere? The council is changing the wording, that's what I was asking about..is there action being taken to clarify the rules for those who like to take full advantage of the advanced editing challenges. Good to know someone's paying attention and the site council is taking steps to shut us all up. Good on 'em.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

02/05/2004 05:12:43 PM · #57

Originally posted by GoldBerry:

Freedom of expression isn't a horrible thing. DPC has never disqualified images for not meeting the challenge, this is simply an extension of this.

The issue of photographic integrity is probably badly phrased, but the intent is to support editing used to enhance good photography, not editing used to supplant it. The cases were the majority of the impact of the image is added in photoshop, rather than photographically, to me, in my own little way of assigning integrity, do not fit. The rules are deliberately vague, in the same way that the scoring is described vaguely. 1 bad 10 good. It allows a huge variety of opinions to be brought to bear on the image. It gives maximum scope for individual views.

Put it another way, if we pin everything down exactly, why bother voting. I can do all the scoring - who needs anyone elses opinion?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

02/05/2004 05:16:32 PM · #58

Originally posted by GoldBerry:

There is no realy way to clarify the rules much. Writing detailed descriptions are impossible because loopholes are always there.

What we had hoped is that the photographers would take it upon themselves to stick with photographs rather than digital artwork. Now, those photographers are moaning about comments they get about not maintaining photographic integrity...

I think there will always be those who submit digital artwork because it is not against the rules to do so. There will always be those who vote 1 on said photos because they don't maintain photographic integrity in the eye of the beholder.

GoldBerry

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

02/05/2004 05:26:14 PM · #59

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by GoldBerry:
There's no continuity to the rules, I think that's the glaring problem. Giving people the ability to use their disgression and than reigning them in 'after' the fact, is obviously causing riffs and waves. Are these threads going anywhere? Will decisions and rules be changed or should DPCers let it go?

Freedom of expression isn't a horrible thing. DPC has never disqualified images for not meeting the challenge, this is simply an extension of this.

The issue of photographic integrity is probably badly phrased, but the intent is to support editing used to enhance good photography, not editing used to supplant it. The cases were the majority of the impact of the image is added in photoshop, rather than photographically, to me, in my own little way of assigning integrity, do not fit. The rules are deliberately vague, in the same way that the scoring is described vaguely. 1 bad 10 good. It allows a huge variety of opinions to be brought to bear on the image. It gives maximum scope for individual views.

Put it another way, if we pin everything down exactly, why bother voting. I can do all the scoring - who needs anyone elses opinion?

I hope you didn't misconstrude anything I've said to warrant 'pin everything down exactly'. If so, any point i've attempted to make has been obviously missed and probably by more than just Gordon and John. I'm more for freedom of expression through art without rules, but I understand the need here for said rules. If these rules are confusing people and causing problems, my point, is that maybe a second look is needed. And apparently that's being done so all is well with the world and a hush falls over the crowd - killing several.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

02/05/2004 05:31:07 PM · #60

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I think there will always be those who submit digital artwork because it is not against the rules to do so. There will always be those who vote 1 on said photos because they don't maintain photographic integrity in the eye of the beholder.

I do too, and I can live with that.

garrywhite2

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

02/05/2004 06:11:37 PM · #61

Three thoughts regarding this

--

Would this photo meet the requirement of photographic integrity?

//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=49082

I ask this for two reasons. First it was a ribbon winner, and secondly because of the **many** comments that were made where people expressed an opinion that it looked more like a painting, or water color than it did a photograph.

---

I agree with the majority in this post... vote as you please. If you don't like this picture... that's fine vote it down. If you don't like dog, cat, bird pictures vote those down too. We are all going to vote for what we like the best, be it chocolate, strawberry, or vanilla.

--

I didn't vote during PWL but if I had I would have voted a 5-6 for this picture. I like it. Like others, I knew very little of what PWL encompassed prior to the challenge. That inspired me to do a web search for PWL and I was delightfully inspired. I also remember one of the websites I visited showed how to use PS to achieve PWL much the same way this photograph was done. At the time I thought it to be an odd interpretation, but now....

theodor38

Nikon D70

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED

02/05/2004 07:25:22 PM · #62

after thiking hard about this "photographic integrity" issue.. i have come to realize that may be users of photoshop might get upper hand when compared to more conservative users since the possibilities are endless with such powerfull tools at disposal...

i do agree now more that limited photoshop use probably is a better idea.. this doesnt mean that a photo manipulated in photoshop should be judged in a different level. for instance in "electric laces" there is a great photograph that lies underneath the photoshop filter and harmonious coupling of a good photo and creative photoshop editting i think results in may be "radical" but still "good photography"...

i might have been a little harsh trying to make my point.. but sometimes it is necessary to get serious reactions.. i am glad that i have brought up this topic.. it definately gave me a new perspective...

my final conclusion is that: a photographer goes through immense brainstorming to come up with a photograph that will touch people in certain ways.. and with photoshop you can turn a seemingly insignificant picture into a more striking one.. in this manner photoshop use seems unjust upto certain levels.. but i now do strongly believe in the voting system in this website and i think that should take care of everything anyways.. people vote however they feel and the winner comes up on top... but i still stand firm in my position that states: creative photoshop use is just as painstaking and important for digital photography as deciding on the angles, lighting and composition while shooting.

i apologize from anybody who my thoughts might have offended....

binkman

Fujifilm FinePix 3800

02/05/2004 07:47:51 PM · #63

This site is called digital photography challenge, not artisitic challenge. My vote is for natural photography and little to know editing.
Binkman

theodor38

Nikon D70

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED

02/05/2004 08:29:58 PM · #64

do you take everythink so literal binkman...

so you must be thinking that "handycap" : is a hat that is handy..
"wonderbread" : is a bread that creates wonders...
"walkman" : is a walking man
"chase mastercard" : is an order for you to run after a master of card
"drive thru" : is a signal where you can drive thru a building..

yeah the website said: "digital photography challenge".. it didnt say "digital photgraphy challenge where little bit of photoshop editting is allowed but if you are the kind of person who uses photoshop a lot than this might not be the place for you" or anything like that...

literalism at its best binkman.. keep it up...

Brooklyn513

Sony DSC-F505

02/05/2004 08:49:40 PM · #65

Members are reminded to hold photographic integrity in the highest regard when both submitting and voting. -- from the advanced editing rules.

Obviously, the issue of photographic integrity is the question here. Personally, I am of a mind to give a higher vote to a photo that has less digital effects. To me (an all important phrase as we each cast ONE vote) the photograph is the important aspect of the challenge. Two equally great shots, one with little or no PSing the other completly heavily filtered and distorted, both will get good votes, the "true" photograph a higher one.

theodor38

Nikon D70

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED

02/05/2004 08:59:01 PM · #66

the more i dont want to be involved in this subject anymore the more i get provoked so here i goes:

at college i took a digital photography class: and the class was nothing about shooting photographs but it was just graphic design in photoshop.. so even some respectable institutions have their own definition of "digital photography"..

but i think some people here think that... put anybody with a photograph file open in photoshop and they will create wonderfull colors and effects that will blow everyone away.. it really is not that easy and editting is a process that takes years to master and although it seems adding filters is the only thing that photoshop does.. photoshop is trully an artistic tool used by great photographers with great skills (i do no claim i am one of them)...

i wonder how many people who talks against photoshop has extensive!!xperience with the software itself...i said extensive...not "little". not "yeah i played around with it little bit".. not "i watched my husband/wife work on it"..

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

02/05/2004 09:10:41 PM · #67

Originally posted by binkman:

This site is called digital photography challenge, not artisitic challenge. My vote is for natural photography and little to know editing.
Binkman

Yes - I agree completely. No room for art here. We'll all be running around naked next! Its photography. Don't be doing anything creative! Quite right.

KarenB

Canon EOS-70D

Canon EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM

02/05/2004 09:14:03 PM · #68

No one is talking against Photoshop or any other editing software.
Our intent is to find a definition that works for the goals of this site.
You mention digital photography to anyone, and their first impression is "manipulated art".
This site has shown for 2 years now that photographs captured with a digital camera (notice the order in which I wrote that.. as it differs from the inferences the former gives) can be taken [u]seriously[/i]. - I am not saying digital art is not serious.. I am just trying to explain that mostly people take "digital photography" with a grain of salt.
Just this past weekend, I picked up my first 16X20 ordered from dpcprints from the frame shop. A group of people (I am proud to say :P ) were wowed! I rec'd lots of compliments on my photography and my photograph . Then, someone asked what kind of film did I use, and what kind of camera do I own. I told them the Olympus e-20, digital slr.
Their mouths hung open.
One person actually said... I didn't know you could do that with digital.
This story is told only to explain that the capture method should not have to be differentiated - if your intention is photography.

I hope I have articulated this properly.

Brooklyn513

Sony DSC-F505

02/05/2004 09:16:13 PM · #69

I have nothing at all against photoshop. It is an incredibly useful tool. As I stated, everyone is going to vote their own opinion, mine happens to lean toward photography from the camera. That is not to say that sme editting in PS may not be needed, much like the use of filters in the darkroom. Gausian blur, put a piece of cheese cloth over the enlarger lense. My issue is with the purely digital computerized effects. Once again, both shots being equal well done, ie technically, compositionally and creativity, I will rate the less computerized looking shot higher. Even if it used gausian blur, sharpening,contrast etc while the other used only one effect that changes the photo dramatically rather than tweaking the existing elements.

Crafty Sue

Sony DSC-F717

02/05/2004 09:31:24 PM · #70

Photography from the camera some camers's mine included Neg Art which
looks about like what we call digital art how are you going to know if it is from camera or photoshop. In the rules from the camera is Ok
just wondering
Sue

Brooklyn513

Sony DSC-F505

02/05/2004 09:37:40 PM · #71

Originally posted by Crafty Sue:

Touche Sue. I have a solarize effect which I have not really used, though I have only had the camera for 3 weeks. So, you see, I am coming from a 35mm perspective. As I explore my camera more I may find I want to use the solarize effect but it's to "Terminator" like for me. "I'll be back."

Crafty Sue

Sony DSC-F717

02/05/2004 09:47:03 PM · #72

Neg art is different from solarize mine has both I haven't used either except to play with I'm not being touche but I've heard this discussed before and have wondered how a person would tell the difference and thought I would ask . I've only had this camera for about 6 weeks
The rules say anything from inside the camera is ok maybe we shouldn't be so quick to say something is photoshopped
Sue

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

02/05/2004 09:50:04 PM · #73

Originally posted by Crafty Sue:

Again, nobody is saying that such images are banned, or should be disqualified - just that we don't have to like them.