Lift Editing Restrictions (Y/N) - DPChallenge Forums

11/12/2003 11:49:57 AM · #27

Originally posted by toocool:

This unfortunately is the problem.

I personally believe that roughly half of what I'd consider my 'photography skills' involve skillful use of photoshop in the digital darkroom.

In much the same way that roughly half of a film photographers photography skills are their skill in the chemical darkroom.

While some believe that the process ends when you click the shutter, many others believe you've done the easy part and that the hard part of what photography actually is, is just starting.

So yes - this site is supposed to be about digital photography, but it is currently mostly about image capture.

joshua

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

11/12/2003 11:50:43 AM · #28

Originally posted by toocool:

Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by toocool:
Absolutely NOT!
Not to say that the occasional (EG: Halloween) challenge isn't a nice change of pace!!!

I dare you to tell me WHY you don't want spot editing! Or are you afraid you'll become better than yourself?

The way I understand it, the reason behind starting this site was to improve peoples photography! This does NOT mean MAKING PERFECT IMAGES, rather IMHO it means TAKE THE BEST PHOTOGRAPH POSSIBLE AND IMPROVE UPON YOUR PHOTOGRAPHY SKILLS

Look at all the top 10 photos from all the challenges...how many of those shots are PERFECT? None are TOTALLY perfect...does that make them have less of an impact? Not in my humble opinion. I see a shot that was taken by another human being that appreciates the art of photography enough to try!

When I see an imperfect but none the less awesome shot, I see the chance that I can take a photograph like that myself, if I perservere. If I see the top XX (pick a number) shots that are perfect and my shot isn't, I may believe that I can not achieve that myself and quit. Please realize that when I say "I", I mean myself and others that perhaps don't read the forums, or for whatever reason don't believe (because they are beginers maybe?) that they will be taken seriously if they do not produce PERFECT IMAGES.

Why do we have to achieve perfection and who ever said that art has to be perfect?

PS. My sig does say my photos, not my created images....

limiting yourself in this way will never help you improve your photography. just because the tools are out doesn't mean you can just slap some dodge and burn and clone tool on and make a perfect image. that's a totally ludicrous idea. being able to have those tools handy when the need arises is something that i am interested in, and something you should be interested in too.

nborton

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

11/12/2003 11:50:44 AM · #29

who says editing creates PERFECT pictures?

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

11/12/2003 12:01:31 PM · #30

I support open editing all the time when the spirit of natural photography is maintained.

Defining this seems to be impossible here on DPC. I think those who know what I mean know what I mean :)

The rest want to use it for the creation of 'digital art' which I don't particularly care much for in the photography arena. I think it should be a category of it's own.

Ultimately, I think there is room for 'digital art' challenges here on a regular basis where photography is the basis for the artwork. I just don't think it should be side by side with photography in the same challenge.

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

11/12/2003 12:05:28 PM · #31

The second place shot in the "halloween" challenge is a perfect example. This is digital art. The underlying photograph is not a good photograph. It would not survive on it's own. The photographer's skill with photoshop and his vision for what he wanted his resulting image to be are both strong.

The impact created by that image was created moreso with photoshop than with the camera. This is the kind of thing I like to avoid, no offense to the photographer here. It's a really great work...

joshua

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

11/12/2003 12:06:43 PM · #32

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I support open editing all the time when the spirit of natural photography is maintained.

Defining this seems to be impossible here on DPC. I think those who know what I mean know what I mean :)

i've been thinking this for a while now, too.

mariomel

Canon EOS-5D

11/12/2003 12:09:36 PM · #33

I say YES!

PHOTOGRAPHY must remain the key factor. I think that natural selection would kind of take place. The Digital Art pics would get voted down, and only the ones were PS manipulation was not obvious would prosper. Look at the disqualified winner in GRACE. No one would have known if he hadn't mentioned it in his description.

jonpink

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2

11/12/2003 12:10:41 PM · #34

quote=jmsetzler]I support open editing all the time when the spirit of natural photography is maintained.

Defining this seems to be impossible here on DPC. I think those who know what I mean know what I mean :)
[/quote]

I think you have defined it pretty well there. "open editing allowed but the spirit of natural photography must be maintained"

i.e no liquify motion blur etc etc.

Message edited by author 2003-11-12 12:14:29.

jonpink

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2

11/12/2003 12:14:00 PM · #35

People who are saying it will end up a digital art site are notlooking at what DPC is now.

A lot of images are 90% black & white, and as if by magic, they have a red apple in the middle in all it's colorful glory. That is digital art and is DPC legal.

I f we can adjust the hue until green trees are purple, and blue skys are yellow, why can't we remove a 1/2 hot pixel?

To me it's silly. Either you have open editing or none at all. Having some is silly.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

11/12/2003 12:15:21 PM · #36

Originally posted by mariomel:

I think you hit the nail on the head - the photoshoped images currently win (in the open challenges), while all of the good examples of excellently manipulated photography get disqualified (rightly, given the current rules)

So the culture here seems to be exactly against the spirit of what I once upon a time wanted to see for good photographic editing and finishing. Which is largely why I've given up any expectation of ever seeing that sort of quality here.

PaulMdx

Canon EOS-1D

11/12/2003 12:20:33 PM · #37

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I support open editing all the time when the spirit of natural photography is maintained.

Defining this seems to be impossible here on DPC. I think those who know what I mean know what I mean :)

I completely agree here John.

I certainly say NO.

I would like to make three points however:

1) A similar poll has been carried out before, with a majority (over 50%) of NOs.
2) A poll like this is should really be carried out by site council in the usual way.
3) DPC is what it is - if people want to perform heavy editing, there's plenty of other sites on the net.

Pedro

Nikon D200

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8 VR DG IF-ED

11/12/2003 12:22:39 PM · #38

Despite my Halloween entry, I'm also not a proponent of digital art as a rule. I am in favour of fewer editing restrictions, however. not that this thread makes a hill of beans difference, but yes (given the intent of improving photographs).

weeks ago Gordon said something like "photoshop can make a good photograph great if done correctly" (but he prolly said it more eloquently than that). That's what makes sense to me.

Pedro

jimmythefish

Canon EOS-10D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

11/12/2003 12:24:22 PM · #39

I think the unrestricted editing would be self-correcting in the voting. If folks don't like an image, whether it's a photograph or a collage, they'll vote it low. I see a lot of very creative, well-done collages on photo.net that are clearly and deliberately manipulated, but still rightly get high marks for the efforts. Bad editing will suffer, good editing will make this place better.

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by mariomel:
I say YES!

PHOTOGRAPHY must remain the key factor. I think that natural selection would kind of take place. The Digital Art pics would get voted down, and only the ones were PS manipulation was not obvious would prosper. Look at the disqualified winner in GRACE. No one would have known if he hadn't mentioned it in his description.

I think you hit the nail on the head - the photoshoped images currently win (in the open challenges), while all of the good examples of excellently manipulated photography get disqualified (rightly, given the current rules)

So the culture here seems to be exactly against the spirit of what I once upon a time wanted to see for good photographic editing and finishing. Which is largely why I've given up any expectation of ever seeing that sort of quality here.

Message edited by author 2003-11-12 12:25:01.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

11/12/2003 12:28:08 PM · #40

Originally posted by PaulMdx:

I would like to make three points however:

1) A similar poll has been carried out before, with a majority (over 50%) of NOs.

This is, at best, an interpretation of the results.

The question was phrased with 3 choices, essentially 'yes, no, and maybe'

Votes were split roughly in thirds across the categories. If people are in favour of the 'no' vote they claimed the maybes supported them, people in favour of the yes vote claimed the maybes supported their view.

As a result, it wasn't exactly insightful or illuminating.

PaulMdx

Canon EOS-1D

11/12/2003 12:28:11 PM · #41

Originally posted by jimmythefish:

I think the unrestricted editing would be self-correcting in the voting. If folks don't like an image, whether it's a photograph or a collage, they'll vote it low.

That's making the assumption someone going over the top on a pic is being scored by people who don't. If there's a clutch of people that think over the top editing is fine, the site very quickly degrades into massacring photography. IMHO, of course.

wfuller

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM

11/12/2003 12:32:07 PM · #42

No.

The really appealing thing about DPChallenge is that is pushes you to improve your camera skill -- the initial skill and essence of photography. Sure, finished art requires spot editing -- no argument there. While a bit of editing is not objectionable, spot editing goes too far. Now, you're mixing graphics arts skills with camera skills, and emphasis on improving camera skill is lost amidst the emphasis on graphics arts skills. For those of you who would like to spot edit (and there's nothing inherently wrong with that), perhaps there's a GAChallenge site out there somewhere. But I would prefer to keep the emphasis of DPChallenge on camera skill.

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

11/12/2003 12:33:47 PM · #43

Originally posted by wfuller:

This being the case, we should disallow any editing at all and submit straight from the camera.

Canon EOS-20D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

11/12/2003 12:36:20 PM · #44

I vote no on opening a thread on this topic every three hours.

PaulMdx

Canon EOS-1D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

11/12/2003 12:37:48 PM · #45

Originally posted by Gordon:

Votes were split roughly in thirds across the categories. If people are in favour of the 'no' vote they claimed the maybes supported them, people in favour of the yes vote claimed the maybes supported their view.

As a result, it wasn't exactly insightful or illuminating.

To try and come to a consensus, select which one best suits your needs for DPChallenge--

(1) Allow more editing techniques to be used in the weekly challenges -- 146, 25.7%
(2) Run an all-edits challenge every once in awhile to soothe my digital darkroom desires -- 289, 50.9%
(3) Things are fine now -- 133, 23.4%

I think >50% is a majority in anyone's book..

Poll Results

Jacko

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

11/12/2003 12:41:48 PM · #46

rickhd13

Canon EOS-20D

Sigma 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 DL Aspherical IF Hyperzoom for Canon

11/12/2003 12:45:19 PM · #47

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

This being the case, we should disallow any editing at all and submit straight from the camera.

Remember all the commotion caused by no editing rules at all in the PAST challenge???

We had a weeklong discussion on whether or not it was legal to rotate a photo that was taken for that challenge.

The only true way around this, in my opinion of course, is to have another challenge added each week that is an open challenge in which editing is allowed and still have the members & open challenges remain as they are.

I guess my vote on this topic is NO, I do not want to see all editing restrictions removed.

11/12/2003 12:48:23 PM · #48

Originally posted by PaulMdx:

Originally posted by Gordon:
Votes were split roughly in thirds across the categories. If people are in favour of the 'no' vote they claimed the maybes supported them, people in favour of the yes vote claimed the maybes supported their view.

As a result, it wasn't exactly insightful or illuminating.

To try and come to a consensus, select which one best suits your needs for DPChallenge--

(1) Allow more editing techniques to be used in the weekly challenges -- 146, 25.7%
(2) Run an all-edits challenge every once in awhile to soothe my digital darkroom desires -- 289, 50.9%
(3) Things are fine now -- 133, 23.4%

I think >50% is a majority in anyone's book..

Poll Results

Thanks for proving my point further.

TooCool

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

11/12/2003 12:52:19 PM · #49

Originally posted by achiral:

In what way am I limiting myself? If I truly thought that there was a limit to what I can do, I wouldn't still be here. After all look at the camera I have! I have achieved a 7th, and 9th place finish and in the most recently completed challenge I am in the top 4 percent of all photos entered. Not because of unlimited editing, but because I believe that I can achieve what I want to achieve even with my crappy little 3 megapixel point and shoot camera. If I can do it, why can't it be done with a digital SLR camera with countless lenses? Don't talk to ME about limiting MYSELF because I don't believe in it!

tomlewis1980

Canon EOS-10D